1947-02-21, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 February 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court Room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court. Counsel may proceed.
PAUL ROSTOCK — (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
DR. PRIBILIA (Counsel for the Defendant Rostock): May it please the Tribunal, first of all I would like to try to answer the question of the Tribunal which refers to Document 3, Exhibit 3. It is this decree ordering secrecy which wont to every military and also the civilian agency which occupied themselves with classified material during the war. This decree was already presented before the International Military Tribunal but as far as I could determine nobody knew the date of it oven at that time. Now, by accident, testimony was presented yesterday in the Milch trial by the witness General Felmy. This gentleman has testified under oath that the decree was dated the 12th January 1940. Now, I do not know exactly what my attitude should be, whether that information is sufficient or if the Tribunal desires that I should submit an excerpt of the record, or if the Tribunal want to take judicial notice of this testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the prosecution any objection to stipulating that the evidence in the trial before Tribunal No. 2 referred to by counsel is correct or approximately correct?
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, of course I cannot stipulate that the information is correct, I just don't have any idea when the decree was issued. I will, of course, stipulate that Dr. Pribilla has given us a correct paraphrasing of the testimony in Military Tribunal 2.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show the remarks of Counsel for the prosecution. Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. PRIBIILA:
Q: Yesterday you had answered the questions which I asked you so far, that you had explained in what manner you come about to touch on the special research problems in Germany and that you began to start a card index file on the subject. You had further stated that this card index file was to serve the purpose of defending research against all intervention. You had further stated in that form you received the notification, and that they were only in the form of a short notice of the agency issuing the assignments of the scientist, not perhaps the priority of number under which those assignments were issued. I am not asking you if turns preliminary work had any effect whatsoever. Did such an interference or an intervention take place, that is an intervention of the part of the armament industry or any other state agency? Did they intervene in the medical research activity?
A: No, such an intervention did not take place. The development of the war also went over this decree by the Ministry for Armament. You will have to imagine the situation as it existed in Germany in 1944—all communications were being hampered and in every way things had to be improvised, quite a few decrees were never executed at that time, there just remained empty words on paper.
Q: In spite of this did you continue and maintain the card index file once you had started it?
A: Yes, we had agreed with the other agencies that they were to inform me about research assignments which had been newly issued.
Q: Did happen because you gave a corresponding order or directive?
A: No, that was what I would like to call a gentleman's agreement.
Q: Well, you said although this activity was never carried out you continued and collected the research subjects. I think that you did this as a preventative measure, so to speak?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: The other agencies who issued research assignments, did they have to obtain your consent if they wanted to issue another research assignment after the time you had already started your card index?
A: No, they did not have to consult me at all. Only when such a research assignment had already been issued, then I was informed of that fact. The research counsel did this in approximately three months intervals from a list which contained all the statements which I have mentioned here yesterday. And, we had an agreement with the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe that I world receive a copy of all assignments when issued. I think General Wuerfler has also testified to that fact yesterday or the day before yesterday.
Q: Do I understand you correctly that these reports went to you after with assignment had been issued?
A: Yes, I was informed subsequently.
Q: Professor, have you ever received any notification from which you could deduct that experiments were carried out on human beings?
A: No, I have never received any such notification. And, now if I had all my files available here and the card file index, which I have already mentioned, which was confiscated at Liebensteim by an American unit, and my defense counsel has already asked that they be furnished to me several weeks ago; then I could also submit documentary evidence.
Q: On 25 August 1944, a now decree was issued. It appointed the defend, Brandt Reich Commissioner. This document is document NO-082, that is Prosecution's Exhibit 7. This decree also mentions for the first time the right to issue instructions. Did this decree change anything in your previous activities.
A: No, no change occurred, I have already explained yesterday that I do not think much of instructions in the field of research.
And, when the organization began to disintegrate already in 1944, it had already progressed so far that we could not work according to the plan any more.
Q: Were the medical and scientific societies subordinated to you?
A: No, the medical societies were subordinated to the ministry of Interior. Furthermore, during the last few years of the war these societies were having their winter sleep, so to speak. They had not been placed in that position through their own free-will, but through a decree which was issued by the Propaganda Ministry which prohibited any meetings or conferences as far as they were not only of a purely local nature. I know that on the Allied side many meetings and conferences were being held. They were also held on an international basis, and with reference to that fact, I have tried on several occasions to cause the Ministry for Propaganda to withdraw the decree which it had previously issued. However, I was not successful in doing this. However, if by medical societies, for example, you mean the Ahnen Society, and its contents with the SS, then I must say that I heard of this society for the first time here in Numberg.
Q: Do you know anything at all about research assignments which were carried out within the framework of the SS organization?
A: On the occasion of the questions which I have mentioned yesterday, the Reich Physician and SS informed me of three or four research assignments which I cannot remember in detail any more. In any case, I had the impression at that time that no remarkable research was being carried out on the part of the SS. However, I must say today that Grawitz, without any doubt, tried to prevent me from gaining any insight into his field and he also succeeded in doing this.
Q: Now, you spoke of the answer of the SS with regard to year question about the research subjects?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, can you give us another one of the subjects which was mentioned by the SS at that time?
A: I can remember the one subject, if I remember correctly, about the history of homosexuality.
However, it may also be the method of treatment, I cannot remember that exactly any more today.
Q: However, do I understand you to the effect that there was nothing amongst these subjects that seemed to be very important to you at that time?
A: No, it did not seem to be very important to me.
Q: Did you find out anything about the fact that the research work was carried out by the SS in the various concentration camps?
A: No, I have not found out anything about it.
Q: Did you find out anything about the experiments on human beings on the part of the SS?
A: I never found out anything about that either.
Q: At the time, did you again ask the SS, when in answer to your inquiry, you were given these very unimportant subjects?
A: No, I have not made any additional inquiries.
Q: Why did you fail to do so?
A: There was no special reason for me to do it, and furthermore I had been told by Brandt that the time when the decrees were issued, which we have so frequently mentioned here, through the General Commissioner, that Hitler he told him at the time, in the presence of Himmler, that he had told him quite clearly that the SS—that he was not concerned with the SS, and that these decrees did not refer to the field competence of the SS.
Q: Did you, on a scientific basis, have any connections and contacts with the Institutes of the SS?
A: No.
Q: Before 1943 did you have any contacts with the Reich Research Counsel?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what contacts Brandt had with the Reich Research Counsel?
A: I know that on the occasion of the reorganization of this Committed I believe that this was in the year 1942, Brandt had been called into the Presidial Counsel of the Reich Research Counsel.
Q: At the end of 1943 when you began your work, did you at that time establish contact to the Reich Research Counsel?
A: For every member of the Presidial Counsel, a deputy had to be appointed, and since this position was not occupied on the staff of Brandt, no appointed me as his deputy early in 1944.
Q: Were you paid as a result of this appointment?
A: No.
Q: Did the Presidial Counsel hold any meetings or conferences, and did you attend these conferences and represent Brandt there?
A: I did not know anything about such a conference, then, in any case, I have not attended such a meeting, and furthermore, I never receiver any invitation to attend one.
Q: Do you know anything about a service regulation, about this Reich Research Counsel?
A: I never saw any such service regulation.
Q: For everything that was discussed in the Reich Research Counsel or which you received in the form of reports, was there any specific secrecy imposed?
A: The Reich Research Counsel, just like any other thing in German-in order to use a slang expression, there was a certain craziness for secrecy. Even the most unimportant matters were classified as secret, and perhaps I could describe to you an incident which I know from my activity as Dean of the Medical Faculty in Berlin.
It may have been in the year of 1942 or 1943 and those questionnaires were sent to all the university teachers by the Reich Research Counsel and we all had to fill in every extensive card indexes and these cards contained personnel statements, as this also was usually published in the literature and scientific indexes, just as it is something in the nature of the English "Who's Who", and furthermore had to be listed in it the scientific publications which had already been printed, and also all of these things could be found the list of Pathologists, surgery, etc. and everybody in Germany was able to buy such books in any book store; although these index cards contained nothing but these statements they were classified as top secret.
Q: Where did you obtain knowledge of the research and the other activities the Reich Research Counsel? Did you receive any reports?
A: Approximately every six months the Reich Research Counsel issued a printed booklet which contained short reports about the research work which had been concluded and which had been financed by the Reich Research Counsel. These booklets did not only contain reports from the field of medicine, that actually occupied a very small part of the booklet, but it also dealt with all other fields, with technical matters, physics, and agricultural cultivation problems and so on. All these things were contained in the booklet, and these reports also were classified as top secret.
Q: Could you see from these reports that anywhere in Germany experiments had been carried out on human beings?
A: No never.
Q: Besides these printed reports, did you yourself receive any special reports?
A: No, I never received such reports.
Q: Did the members of this presidial council have any authority to issue instructions, or did they have to supervise the business management of the Reich Research Council?
A: No. The special branch heads in the Reich Research Council were subordinated directly to Goering.
Q: Where did you not that information?
A: I was told by the first acting president in the Reich Research Council Herr Menzel and he told me that quite clearly. Dr. Blome confirmed this fact to me here also.
Q: Who was in charge of the management of the Reich Research Council? For example, who issued the research assignments?
A: The research assignments were issued by the specialist branch head or the plenipotentiaries or the commissioners for special projects; and in the field of medicine there were the scientists, who dealt with research, of epidemics and cancer.
Q: Where did you obtain this knowledge?
A: I also know that from President Menzel.
Q: As it was previously mentioned, Menzel was the manager in the Reich Research Council?
A: Menzel was the deputy president, if I remember correctly. He was acting president council.
Q: What was the position of the presidial council?
A: I assumed that the presidial council was a representative matter. However, I cannot tell you that exactly because I have never actually participated in this capacity. Perhaps it was a fictional organization like the Prussian State Council of which I read in the press last year, where it was stated that they had never held any meeting.
Q: The prosecution has presented a document here which contains the correspondence between the acting manager of the Reich Research Council Menzel on one hand and the Reich physician SS on the other hand. This is Document 002-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 40. From this correspondence, which to place between the acting manager of the Reich Research Council Mr. Grawitz * the Reich physician SS, the prosecution has reached the conclusion that you had been informed about the fact that experiments on human beings had been mentioned in this letter. What can you say in this connection?
A: I can say that I saw this correspondence for the first time here when it was presented by the prosecution and then that it originated in the year 1942 or 1943. At that time I didn't have anything whatsoever to be with the Reich Research Council. It was my experience in the year 1944. I should say that similar correspondence never has been presented to me.
Q: Did you yourself issue any research assignments to the Reich Research Council, or did you order that research assignments?
A: If the words "initialed" and "ordered" are used and if they are taken as synonymous with the word "requested", then yes.
I have already mentioned that I wanted to further research in the field of tissue culture; and for that reason I approached the medical branch head in the Reich Research Council with the request that research assignments be issued to five or six men — and including women as well — and that they be given research assignments in this field so that the people who had preciously occupied themselves with the field could again resume their work.
For example. I also further suggested that two other experienced pathologists should write the history of the German Society for Pathology. However in all these cases I did not act on behalf of the Reich Research Council, but in my capacity as a chief of an agency with the General Commissioner. I approached another agency with a request of the Reich Research Council for suggestion.
Q: Was it known that the Reich Research Council had to comply with this request or could it have refused the request?
A: It did not need to comply with it; it could also refuse.
Q: That was a suggestion?
A: Yes, that was only a suggestion.
Q: The witness Prof. Gutzeit has testified before this Tribunal that you had made written inquiries to him with regard to medicine and also with regard to a certain tissue treatment against typhus, consisting of the use of baths. Now, the witness was unable to remember of a certainty if you had made these inquiries from your Office for Science and Research or if you had made these inquiries to him on behalf of the Reich Research Council. However the witness has admitted that he was not exactly informed about your position in the various agencies. Can you give us an explanation on that subject?
A: Yes, I can do that. Without any doubt Dr. Gutzeit has mixed up the two agencies, namely the Office for Science and Research, and the Reich Research Council. I can remember these inquiries very well; and I address them to Gutzeit from my agency which the Reich Commissioners on one occasion according to the previously mentioned action for the reduction of the production of medicine. The other occasion was the suggestion which had been addressed to me from some other agency about the treatment of typhus, using some measure like baths which were to be increased in heat.
Q: Then, if I understand you correctly, that was an inquiry which you had directed to him as a scientist?
A: Yes.
Q: The prosecution has presented here the record of an interrogation Karl Brandt. It is Document NO-1730, that is, Prosecution Exhibit 441. There the words were used that you had taken up your assignment in camp with the Reich Research Council; and the prosecution has concluded from them that you had some official influence on the Reich Research Council. Can give us any explanation on that subject?
A: As I have already state, we wanted to have this discussion about electronic microscopy and penicillin. Technical difficulties prevailed which were caused by the decree of the Propaganda Ministry which I have just mentioned. This decree prohibited the holding of any meetings. For this reason I turner to Mr. Menzel in his capacity as Reich Research Council and asked his advice. Mr. Menzel advised me that we should not call any meetings or conferences but that we should have an official discussion. An official discussion had not been prohibited in this decree by the Ministry for Propaganda; and that is exactly what we did.
Furthermore, I have also stated that I wanted to keep the German scientists informed about the new discoveries abroad; and in order to do this I had to approach the people that were to obtain the foreign literature. In his matter I also asked Menzel's aid in the Reich Research Council. It was also in this case that my agency I had to approach another agency in the Reich Research Council with this request; and I did not do anything nor did I initiate any measures on half of the Reich Research Council.
Q: You stated that information about the literature abroad was necessary at that time were there not a large number of medical publications in existence which dealt with articles and speeches?
A: Yes, that is correct, because a large number of medical journals had a certain department and in peace time the most important part of foreign literature was very carefully analyzed. I know this very well from my activity as editor of the Central Journal of Surgery and all the editors subscribed to the most important foreign journals. At the beginning of the war all of this changed. We were not allowed any more to subscribe to any foreign literature any more. Certain editions of the forcing scientific journals still came into Germany. However, they had to be treated as secret material and even if an editor was able to obtain such an edition through some other ways then he was not allowed to analyze it. That had been prohibited by the Ministry for propaganda. I considered this as unfeasible and I considered it nonsensical. For this reason in the year 1944 I began to organize such a secret information sheet.
Q: In March 1945 Karl Brandt was ordered to summarize medical research within the Reich Research Council. You know this decree, don't you?
A: Yes, I know it.
Q: Will you please confirm to me if the date of March 1945 is correct. That is several weeks before the end of the war?
A: Yes, that date is correct.
Q: Why was this instruction issued?
A: First of all in my opinion this decree indicates very clearly that Brandt did not have any influence on the Reich Research Council before this decree was issued.
Q: May I interrupt you? Then you did hot have any influence either?
A: No, I did not have any either. Then why this decree was issued in the very last phases of the war was probably caused by the fact that things were not functioning correctly any more even in this field. Perhaps people thought this condition changed by means of a piece of paper.
Q: Did this decree have any practical effect?
A: No, the decree arrived several days before our agency was moved from Belitz to Thuringia and it did not have any practical effect whatsoever.
Q: During your activity there was an institute like the Kaiser Wilhelm Society, there were several institutes here that were subordinated to you?
A: No, the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute was a society on a subordinate basis which is not exactly know to me. I have heard on one occasion that it was society of public law. I personally cannot even imagine anything under that title. This society was subordinate to the Reich Ministry of Education. However, I do not know any details as to what its exact subordination was.
Q: This document has been presented here in some other connection, that is Document No. 1309, this is Prosecution Exhibit No. 326. It contains a file note about a discussion which took place between Dr. Blome and a certain Dr. Kliewe. The prosecution concluded from this that you were also informed about bacteriological warfare. Can you give us any statement on that subject? I believe that this letter is on the 23rd of February, 1944.
A: I have seen this file note for the first time in the documents here. My name has not been mentioned in the document and I did not attend this discussion. I have previously never heard anything about the working committee, "Blitzableiter". I do not exactly know what that name was. I only know the following about pathological warfare: That Generaloberstabsarzt Handloser, in my capacity then as his consultant surgeon, ordered me to attend a meeting and probably because the invitation stated something about cancer research and perhaps because he wanted me to utilize my specialist knowledge in that field in the course of the meeting. Generaloberstabsarzt Handloser gave us detailed information about his conversation with Professor Blome and it is probably sufficient if I confirm that the meeting actually took the same course as has been described here. It was interrupted without having achieved any results whatsoever and I personally have never again of this meeting at a later period of time.
Q: I request that you state quite briefly what subjects were dealt with during that meeting. When did this meeting take place?
A: I do not know the exact date any more but it must have been in the spring or summer of 1943, and the following persons were present:
Blome, Handloser, a veterinary general from the Veterinary Inspection, and perhaps one or two other men whose names I do not remember any more. Blome stated that he had received instructions by the Reich Marshal to deal with pathological warfare some way and he was trying to receive information on the people who were connected with the armed forces, and Generaloberstabsarzt Handloser first asked him if he was able to show any written instructions because he had received the strictest orders that on the part of Germany no preparations at all were to be made in this field and that he was unable to give any information without first having received the authority to do so by his military superiors. Since he had not received this authority and since he was unable to say what the meeting would deal with, he was unable to give any information or furnish any documents at this time, and then Veterinary General Richter said exactly the same thing. The meeting came to a conclusion after a relatively very short period of time.
Q: And later on the subject never came to your ears again?
A: No, I never heard of it again.
Q: The indictment brings you into contact and charges you with the responsibility for malaria experiments which were carried out in the Concentration Camp Dachau. What can you state in connection with that?
A: I do not know on what the Prosecution supports itself. I have found out in the course of the trial that the order for such experiments was issued in February 1942 by Himmler. At that time I was consulting surgeon with the Army at the front. I have never had a contact whatsoever with Himmler and I did not know Schilling. I had not worked on the experiments and I Lave never been at Dachau. I have only board of all these experiments from the publications of the press and that was long after the capitulation.
Q: Now the Prosecution has brought you into connection with still another matter and that is with the polygal experiments. As far as I can see the only basis for it is a certain place on the Siever diary. This is Document PS-3546, Prosecution Exhibit 123. On page 152 of this diary Sievers has written the following: That on the first of June 1944 he has answered any inquiry from you on the subject of Polygal. What kind of an inquiry was that?
A: At the beginning of the year 1944 in the Munich Medical Weekly Journal an article had appeared which reported a new blood clotting drug on the basis of pectin. We already had discussed such a drug on the pectin basis: pectin is a vegetable matter, we had already such a drug, that was sangostop. However, this drug was not satisfactory in every respect and, of course, as a surgeon I was naturally interested. And, therefore, I wrote to the author of this article. I requested him to send me several samples. I did not write Sievers, because he was completely unknown to me at that time but I wrote to the author whose name I had soon in the publication the Munich Weekly Medical Journal. And, of course, I did not over know that this person passed or the letter to Sievers. I do not remember quite exactly If I ever did receive those samples. In any event I never used them and it is quite probable that I never received them. However, I cannot say that with absolute certainty.
Q: You stated that you did not know Sievers.
A: No. I did not know him at that time.
Q: However, it has been stated here in the course of the trial that Sievers on one occasion visited Karl Brandt in order to inform him about the lost experiments by Professor Hirt. This is Document NO-372, Prosecution Exhibit 252. Were you also informed at that time or did you find out anything about it?
A: I did not see Sievers at that time and I did not see the report that time either. The report came into my hands for the first at that time either. The report came into my hands for the first time here and it belongs to the complex of preventative measures against chemical warfare agents. I did not deal with this matter it was dealt with by Brandt personally.
Q: The Prosecution further brings you into connection with the experiments about making seawater drinkable, experiments involved this case which were carried out in the year 1944. At that time you were already in the office for Science and Research. Did the Luftwaffe where the experiments were carried out inform you before the assignments were issued authorizing this research?
A: No. They failed to do so.
Q: Were you informed of this research assignment within the from work of the notification which you received subsequently for your card index file?
A: That in itself might be quite possible. However, I do not think this was the case because Becker-Freyseng has stated here in this affidavit that this was not a research assignment but it was an official order by the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe to a subordinate to medical officer. And, of course, such orders would not co* to my knowledge.
Q: Therefore it is not certain if this assignment was include in your card index file?
A: No.
Q: Do you know any details about these experiments. Did you your occupy yourself with planning or the execution of these experiment at that time?
A: I did not have anything to do with the planning or execution.
Q: You remember this personally?
A: Yes. I know that. Furthermore, a document has been presented here which contains the record of two preliminary discussions. I do not know the document number.
Q: That is document NO-177. I shall give you the exhibit number in a minute.
A: And this record indicates that I did not have anything to do with it and the distributions shows that it was not sent to me either.
Q: And you had no knowledge of it whatsoever?
A: No.
Q: May it please the Tribunal, I shall give you the exhibit number after the recess.
With regards to the hepatitis experiments which have been mentioned here, the Prosecution has presented a document which is NO 010. It is Prosecution Exhibit 187. It has been concluded from the letter that Karl Brandt approached the Reich Physician-SS Grawit in order to carry out experiments on human beings with regard hepatitis. Do you know anything about this occurrence?
No. I have seen this document here for the very first time and at the time Brandt has never told me anything whatsoever about it. About the hepatitis experiments — no. I do not know anything about that either.
Q: The hepatitis experiments were carried out by Professor Haagen at Strasbourg. Didn't you know anything about the issuance of a research assignment on hepatitis to Professor Haagen or did you have any active part in it?
A: I have seen here from the files that this assignment is from June 1943 and that it was issued by the Reich Research Council. In June 1943 I did not have anything to do with the Reich Research Council and I was not even a member of it as representative of Presidial Council.
And, I did not find out anything at all about those experiments until a later period of time.
Q: Haagen had another assignment from the Reich Research Council, that was working with regards to typhus. Did you have thing to do with that?
A: These research assignments were from the year 1942-43 and I have only found out about them here, and they originated with the Reich Research Council and the Luftwaffe. And the same applied to them with what I have just stated with regard to hepatitis with reference to the date.
Q: On the occasion of the interrogation of the witness, Eyre it was mentioned here that you also engaged in correspondence with Professor Haagen at Strasbourg. The witness was unable to state what this correspondence dealt with. However she said she could remember seeing your name on one of the letters. What did this correspondence deal with?
A: Of course, I cannot remember every letter that I have written several years ago but I know Haagen as an expert on virus disease. And, when in the winter of 1944 the question confronted us, that perhaps in the spring of 1945, we would be confronted by an influenza epidemic on a large scale, then I approached large number of experts, and that included Haagen, and I requested them to me suggestion of what preventative measures could be taken against such an epidemic and, if I remember correctly Fraulein Eyre has also testified here that she could remember the contents of this correspondence. At least that I noted.
Q: In the course of the trial a report has been presented which the previous mentioned Professor Haagen wrote at Strasbourg and which deals with typhus. Do you remember that Document?
A: Yes, I can remember it.
Q: It is Document NO-138, Prosecution Exhibit 300. What kind of report is it
A: From the correspondence with Dr. Breuer, which was presented at the same time, it is indicated that it is a report, as it was contained in the printed publications by the Reich Research Counsel, which I have previously discussed.
Q: Did you read these reports from the Reich Research Counsel? Do you remember if you have seen this report by Professor Haagen at an earlier period of time?
A: That is quite possible but it certainly did not draw any special attention on my part because then it would probably have remained in my memory.
Q: Have you been able to study this report more closely here?
A: Yes, I have studied it very closely.
Q: According to the knowledge which you have at his time, can you deduct from this report that illegal experiments on human beings formed the basis for it?
A: No, I cannot do that, even though I know the subject of this trial.
Q: This report speaks of the production of a living typhus vaccine. Can one not become suspicious from that expression?
A: No, not at all. Numerous virus vaccines contained an active virus, which has been weakened, and this perhaps could be best explained in the general well-known example of smallpox vaccination, because smallpox is also a virus disease. If a human being is to be protected from the danger of becoming infected with smallpox, then the person is inoculated with a weakened active virus. All of us, probably, on our upper arms, have the marks of a very slight smallpox infection which was imposed on us during our youth; during this light smallpox infection, adjoining the vaccination, then the body forms a protection reaction, which will counteract any danger of an infection to which the person might be exposed later on. Not exactly like it, but in a similar way, is the state of affairs with typhus, because it is also a virus disease.
Q: However, there is still another place in this report where it is stated the effects of this vaccine had been tested on 8 persons.
A: In order to use a word which has been mentioned in the course of the trial, that is nothing criminal if a number of people are vaccinated against spotted typhus as is done in every army when troops are to be used in an endangered area; then after a certain period of time an agglutination reaction can be produced. This can be done with a drop of blood which may be taken from the ear or the finger and with this reaction it can be determined how much of an immunity has been obtained with the various people. For example, it can be concluded from it if one or the other person has to be immunized again and the effect of the immunization can actually be determined in numbers. From these subsequent tests Haagen reported with reference to the dry vaccine which he had newly developed and, in my opinion, an expert cannot draw any conclusion that anything illegal was connected with this report.
Q: Now the prosecution has assumed that a physician like yourself, who held such a high position in Germany, even if he did not have any knowledge of crimes in detail, still participated in a conspiracy to commit criminal experiments because, in the medical scientific field, he was working together with other agencies, especially when such things were done by other agencies. Now I want to ask you whether such a connection with other agencies existed which would justify this assumption?
A: The indictment mentions a conspiracy on several occasions. I do not know the jurist definition of the word conspiracy but on the basis of human common sense I can state the following: Under the again and emphasized arbitrary and purposeful uniform concept of coordination always shown to the outside, exactly the opposite of coordination existed and exactly the opposite of a collaboration existed. This referred to big, important questions and also to what the world knows as cirelle allemende. This referred to whole a agencies and it also referred to individual subjects and persons and persons on the outside can hardly gain a proper impression in imagination of that subject. In any case, no conspiracy was involved; there was no trace of such a conspiracy.
Q: From the trial you know at this time the various points of the indictment with which you are being brought into connection. Now, in conclusion, do you have any remarks to make with regard to the form of the accusations?
A: As a scientist I am used, to examining material on hand professionally and without any passion, regardless of my person, and I have done exactly the same thing in this connection. From the composition of the individual points of the indictment I believe that the power conditions and the struggles for power as they existed in Germany during the war, have not been taken into consideration. Towards the end of the year 1943 the disintegration of the organization in Germany as a result of the effects of the war, had already progressed very far. The individual agencies had fortified their positions of power and now they avoided, to a very large extent, the influence of other agencies. The State Leadership tried, because of the difficulties which were accumulating, to achieve an improvement by establishing new agencies.
Thus the position of the Reich Commissioner for Health and Medical Service was only one of a large number of such attempts. On the other hand, however, the suspicion of the supreme state leadership was so great that a really effective new organization could not be achieved. Even my unofficial activity with the help of several assistants and a very small field of competence, as Lammers has explained, it here, was neither in accordance with the desire of the state leadership now was it suitable, with the budget which had been furnished to us, to do more than what I have previously described as my attempts. In the field of special research I did not have any supervisory capacity towards other agencies or authorities. I believe that everybody will be able to confirm that.
Where everybody is not exactly acquainted with the conditions that prevailed in Germany during the war — and that is also for the Prosecution it is very difficult to obtain a clear picture of who was really responsible.
I hope that I have succeeded in showing what actually existed, behind the high-sounding title of the Office for Science and Research and that it did not have the tasks and did not have the knowledge which is ascribed to it by the Prosecution. My office was not the type of office which was able to give orders in the field, of medical research an assumption which has been made here several times by the judges that the procedure was followed as the Prosecution has described it.
I have often asked myself if I, in my position in the year 1944, could have and should have recognized this, because I did not know about it. That I hope I have clarified through my testimony. But everything that is a subject if the accusation here, that has taken place behind the locked gates of the concentration camps. I have never found out about what went on there and if I had tried to gain insight into what was going on behind those walls, then I would not have succeeded in doing so.
It was absolutely impossible for those outside to lock through them. Until the year 1945, I did not talk to any person who had ever been in a concentration camp and thus the things that happened there were hidden from me.
I regret very much that I do not have all my files available here, so that I could give still more exact and detailed information in order to give a clearer insight. However, I hope that my closer collaborators, who will appear here as witnesses, will be able to give further information which might be desired.
DR. PRIBILLA: May it please the Tribunal, I do not have any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
(A recess was taken)