1947-02-28, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, before the recess we stopped at the relationship of subordination with regard to the SS troops.

KARL GENZKEN — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. MERKEL:

Q: Where did you have mutual points of contact with the chiefs of the three branches of the Wehrmacht?

A: The point of contact was the assignment of medical officers on the part of the branches of the Wehrmacht to the Waffen SS. At that time there existed a big shortage in medical officers. Furthermore, the Waffen SS was lacking all reserve medical officers because these had been conscripted, even before the war, by the branches of the Wehrmacht.

Q: Were these medical officers furnished to the Waffen SS gladly?

A: As a result of this shortage of medical officers, big difficulties prevailed and I had to fight for almost everyone of the medical officers.

Q: Could you perhaps give an example of that to the Tribunal?

A: In the year 1940 — in November of that year — I had to furnish medical officers for a newly established division and I had to request 64 medical officers for that purpose. After long negotiations I received the last part of the 64 medical officers in June of the following year.

On another occasion, as a result of the wounded catastrophe, which has already been mentioned here and which was mentioned by Professor Brandt in connection with Viasma, by order of the Fuehrer I personally had to turn six SS physicians over to the Army. Out of the six, four were not returned to me.

Q: Did you have the impression that the medical chiefs of the Luftwaffe and the Navy gladly subordinated themselves to the agency of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, which was established in 1942?

A: No, I had the impression that they did not like this measure at all.

Q: And why?

A: The conditions with the branches of the Wehrmacht, in particular in the case of the Luftwaffe and the Navy, were compared to the conditions which prevailed with the Army and they varied too much from these conditions.

I heard from the Navy that the Commander in Chief of the Navy considered the Office of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service as an interference in his field of competence.

Q: Was the Reich physician, Dr. Grawitz, subordinated to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, Prof. Dr. Handloser?

A: Grawitz considered himself to be in an equal position with Dr. Conti. Dr. Grawitz felt himself to be in the same position as Dr. Conti. However, this was not specified in the Fuehrer's decree.

Q: What Fuehrer decree are you referring to?

A: I am referring to the Fuehrer decree which established the position of the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, which was ordered to the Reich Commissioner. And Himmler was not interested in removing this unclear situation that prevailed because he was striving for more power.

Q: I an now coming to your contact with Himmler. What was your relationship with Himmler? Did he establish clear conditions in the supreme medical relation, or not.

A: The first trial in this courthouse has shown that Himmler had two intentions. One he showed to Hitler, and the other to the members of the Waffen SS, and on the other hand he tried to obtain all the power in the State. In order to do this he had to camouflage most of his aims, and in this case he used to play out one person against the other, and in this way he left the supreme medical leadership in complete unclarity, and he played out several physicians against Grawitz.

Q: Now what physician individually did he play out against him?

A: Through medical personalities, to whom Himmler gave his confidence, Grawitz was completely removed from the close proximity of Himmler. As I have already stated. Professor Gebhardt was in a special relationship of confidence to Himmler, since he had been a friend since his youth, and, furthermore, through his closest surroundings, there belonged a Sturmbannfuehrer Stumpfaeger, who also had been a friend of Himmler during his student time. Then Himmler had a certain Dr. Farenkamp, a specialist for internal medicine, and also for heart diseases, and he included that person into his personal staff, and Dr. Farenkamp was a civilian. He was not a member of the SS and he was not subordinated to Dr. Grawitz, and although Grawitz was a professor of internal medicine, he appointed this Dr. Farenkamp as a family physician. At Dachau he established a research institute for him in order to carry out his heart research, and he also supported him with funds and other financial means. Furthermore, this research station belonged to an agency of the Waffen SS, the so-called "Kreislauf Pruefungsstelle" where he was active as a Konsarnorius. As a fourth medical personality, Himmler treated a certain Mr. Koester, who was a civilian Dutchman, and who allegedly had studied for seven school semesters at Helsinki, and who gave him treatment every day.

Q: Did Himmler also include your person into this game?

A: Yes, he tried to do that. When, in the year 1940 or 1941, the position of the Reich physician was beginning to take shape, then I was told that I might take over the position of the Reich physician.

I strictly refused to do this, and Himmler had me informed through my military superior, Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner, that if Genzken and Grawitz cannot get along together, then the whole thing should be called to a halt.

Q: During your five years activity as medical chief of the Waffen SS, how many times did you personally talk to Himmler?

A: During the entire war I have only talked to him on two occasions. One time this was in his headquarters in the field, that was in August 1943, when I had been ordered to see him together with Grawitz and Gebhardt, in order to discuss the reorganization of the medical service of the SS. At that time, without having previously been prepared, all the four office chiefs, and all hygienic institute and pharmaceutical establishments were taken from me all at the same time.

Q: That was one discussion, and when was the second?

A: The second one took place in spring 1942, on the occasion of a discussion with the Italian Ambassador Alfieri, in his private home. Before the beginning of the meeting Himmler took me aside, and he reproached me very excitedly, that the wounded were given far too little to eat. I told him that a short time previously, the bread and potato ration had been cut by the authorities. On that occasion I also mentioned the subject about the dismissal of a chief of a hospital of one of the hospitals subordinated to me which had been ordered by Himmler. He alleged the matter to me for a reason which was lying about eight years back, and I gave him to understand at that time that I was unable to understand that, and that I could not understand his logic.

Q: Did you also cause the ill will of Himmler in other cases?

A: Yes; on one occasion I had to straighten out the previously mentioned Dr. Farenkam, because he intervened in my field of competence, because he stayed at his close contact with Himmler. On the other occasion, a letter which contained reproaches by the Referent of Himmler, I was forced to write a certain letter, and as Obergruppenfuehrer Berger informed me later on, Himmler had also been very excited when he read this particular letter.

Q: Was there any other serious incident between you and Himmler later on?

A: In the spring of 1942 there was a regular break. From the Racial and Settlement Office, Himmler had received a report from one of his Roferents about a garrison in Poland which suffered a venereal disease rate of 70 percent. This report was not based on any facts, and immediately afterwards, I had this matter investigated by an SS medical officer, and completely normal conditions prevailed at that post. Himmler sent this letter together with an endorsement to all main offices of the SS and the army, with an endorsement which was to be read everywhere. In this letter he described the SS medical officers as having forgotten their duties and their honor, and when this letter was read in the Referent meeting of the SS leadership main office, I took up excitedly and I stated, in front of approximately 40 officers: "Even Heinrich Himmler cannot take my honor away from me."

Q: Did Himmler find out about this statement which you made then?

A: The later Obergruppenfuehrer Fegelein, who participated in this meeting, informed Himmler of it and he reported that to me later.

Q: And what did you do then?

A: I told Obergruppenfuehrer Jeuttner, my military superior, that he could take over my office, and I told the Reich physician SS Dr. Grawitz that disciplinary measures should be taken against me. However this suggestion was not approved.

Q: Now what results did your relationship to Himmler have in the following time?

A: I had the feeling that personally I had become a "persona ingrata et incerta" with him and that I had lost all his confidence.

Q: Will you please tell us that in German now, witness?

A: Well, I think the expression "persona ingrata et incerta" means that he did not include me in his confidence anymore.

Q: Did you want to have a small theological article printed during the war?

A: In the Spring of 1944 I wrote a small theological work which I wanted to have printed privately in order to be able to distribute it in a circle of friends in England. However, the regulation was that all publications had to be submitted to him and this is exactly what I did. He wrote a personal letter to me and again its contents were very insulting to me and he refused to have this religious article printed.

Q: And one final question in this complex. What distinctions and awards did you receive during the war?

A: I considered distinction that I was not well-liked by Himmler and that in August of 1941 I was given the War Meritorius Cross as my last distinction. However, since August 1941, I was not given any further awards.

Q: Now, Dr. Genzken, I am coming to your relationship to Reich Physician SS Dr. Grawitz. How long did you know the Reich Physician, and can you give us a judgment about his personality?

A: I knew Grawitz since my entry into the Waffen-SS. That was in 1936. With regard to his person, I can say that Grawitz was a very regular human being. He was very smooth in his speech. He was scheming, a matter of fact person and he was an outstanding organizer. In any case he knew how to show off his organization, and he was very ambitious. His ambition was connected with his care for his position and which, of course resulted suspicion and a certain amount of inner insecurity, and in spite of his appearance in uniform, his behavior and his speech —

Q: And what were the effects of this on your relationship to Grawitz?

A: Grawitz was fifteen years younger than I, and we were two human beings with completely different temperaments. As a result of this, certain frictions existed.

Q: At the outbreak of the War did you have an arguement with him?

A: Before the War and from 1936 to 1939, we were able to work together extremely well, and at the beginning of the War I was given a command at the Front which I have previously mentioned, and he tried — together with the Chief of Staff who was then Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Dermitzel — to keep the command at the Front which had been given to me. They wanted to go to the Front, and I was to remain at home. However, I was able to keep my position, and Grawitz told me on a later occasion that I had stepped very much on his feet.

Q: As you have just stated, Grawitz was already in the first years of war completely removed from his authority by Himmler, and what results did this have?

A: Then Grawitz had his field of tasks. He interfered in my military field of assignment constantly.

Q: And what interference did he carry out?

A: Without my knowledge, he interfered with my military authority which had been generally given to me by my superior, Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner.

Furthermore, he tried without my knowledge to obtain information from some of my referents, and he gave them the order that they were not to inform me of that fact. Furthermore, he also interfered in my correspondence, and he even did not hesitate in violating the secrecy of the mails.

Q: What measures did you take then?

A: Since I considered this interference as a disturbance of my work, I reported this to my military superior. The latter approached Grawitz on that subject, and at that time a line was made distinctly between our fields of tasks, and he also told the Reich Physician of his right to issue directives and instructions and also to the field of scientific planning and research, and he gave me the authority in the Medical Service of the units.

Q: That is the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS?

A: Yes.

Q: Was it emphasized in that respect that the institutes and pharmaceutical establishments of the Waffen-SS were further to be available to the Reich Physician for his research assignments?

A: Yes.

Q: You have just mentioned the right of the Reich Physician to issue instructions and to carry out inspections. Can you give more details about that subject to the Tribunal, what you understand by that?

A: The Reich Physician had the authority to inspect and to issue instructions to all institutes and to all units and all hospitals of the Waffen-SS and to give technical orders there without first going through the regular Army channels.

Q: Does it also apply in particular to secret orders?

A: Yes. He was able to determine how many people were to obtain information about these orders.

Q: Did Grawitz ever tell you about his secret research assignments?

A: No. He never gave me any insight into this field or work.

Q: Why not?

A: According to the knowledge which I have obtained now, I think it was for the following reasons: first of all, there was the well-known Fuehrer's Decree for Secrecy, the so-called Fuehrer Decree No. I, and, secondly, Grawitz knew that I had become a persona ingrata et incerta with Himmler, and I had the feeling that he had been instructed by Himmler not to tell me about his secret matters. I further had the feeling that after he had been removed from his position of authority, he saw in this field of scientific research a possibility to become indispensable with Himmler.

Q: Did you know anything about his secret research assignments from any other source?

A: No. I am surprised to discover from the trial here that he was actually participating in most of these experiments, but at that time, of course, I did not know anything about it.

Q: Did you know, for example, anything about the Department for Special Military Research in the Ahnenerbe?

A: No, I did not know anything about it.

Q: Now, a final question to this whole complex: did you at any other time conspire with Grawitz and Himmler to commit crimes and war crimes against humanity?

A: No, never.

Q: Witness, I am now coming to another complex of questions. You were chief of the medical service of the Waffen SS and in order to give the Tribunal a clear picture of your position and your activity I am now asking you to answer the following question: When was the Waffen SS established and what had been its predecessor?

A: The Waffen SS was established in the summer of 1940 from the SS Verfuegungstruppe and the SS death head units.

Q: And how much personnel did the Waffen SS have at the outbreak and at the end of the war?

A: The Waffen SS had approximately thirty-six thousand men at the outbreak of the war. It was composed of the Verfuegungstruppe and the death head units, and when the Waffen SS was established it altogether had fifty-six thousand men. That is a number which I obtained from the files of the first trial. At that time prior to the campaign in the west four divisions were activated; however, the fourth division was composed of police, SS, and also army units. At the end of the war there were thirty-six divisions in the field and together with the replacements, troops at home, the Waffen SS consisted of 580,000 men. I have obtained this figure also from the first trial. Together with losses, the following went through the files of the Waffen SS; there were altogether 900,000 men and the losses of the Waffen SS can be estimated as approximately 320,000. At that time fifteen divisions were still being prepared for action. That was before the end of the war.

Q: And what medical units were included in the SS division?

A: In the case of the first twelve divisions the medical unit of a division consisted of two medical companies, one field hospital, and two medical trains — two hospital trains. They consisted of thirty train cars. Later on the field hospital or medical company was withdrawn. This was caused by the lack of personnel and material.

Q: At the beginning of the war had medical units of the Waffen SS already been established?

A: No. Such medical units did not yet exist at the outbreak of the war.

They all had to be established.

Q: And what was the entire medical personnel that was subordinated to you at the beginning and at the end of the war?

A: At the beginning of the war there were approximately 800 men and at the end there were approximately thirty thousand.

Q: What was the status of the medical schools?

A: At the outbreak of the war the SS medical academy was at my disposal for the training of the medical officers, and two medical schools. At the end of the war there were thirteen medical schools or special schools.

Q: And how many hospitals were at the disposal of the Waffen SS?

A: At the beginning we had two hospitals, one near — one at Berlin and one in Munich, and at the end of the war we had more than sixty, and about half of them were fully equipped with clinical equipment, and the other ones were specialized hospitals. These hospitals, just like our divisions, they were located all ever the occupied territories and in the Reich. They were in Finland, the Eastern Front, the Southern Front, also in France and the Netherlands, and, therefore, it was very difficult to take care of the supervision of these hospitals. And, therefore, this took too much time. We were unable to take the necessary care of all these hospitals.

Q: Were there any medical depots, and what was their task?

A: At the outbreak of the war we had the main medical depot at Berlin, and towards the end of the war we had eight of these depots. And their task was to supply the units at the front and at home with appropriate medical material and equipment, and with medicine and dressings and things of that kind, and to furnish the necessary equipment to the hospitals.

Q: Furthermore, you also had hygienic institutes?

A: At the outbreak of the war we had the hygienic institute of the Waffen SS, and by August 1943, it was the longest time these institutes were subordinated to me, we added six further institutes, and while this first institute was the only one which was located at home in Berlin, the remaining six institutes were located in the occupied territories.

They were at Riga, Minsk, Jepopotrowsk, Kiew, Reichkow, and Balbach.

Q: Now, how did your organization work at the Waffen SS? Would it vary from that of the medical inspectorate, the three branches of the Wehrmacht?

A: The three inspectorates of the branches of the Wehrmacht were able to work on the experiences which they had gained in peacetime. From the figures which I have given with regard to the Waffen SS indicate the organization of the medical service of the Waffen SS had to be newly established and under conditions of war. In contrast to the medical inspectorates of the branches of the Wehrmacht, we did not have the field of scientific research and planning in my agency. I also did not have the title of inspector.

Q: And at that time who took care of the scientific research and planning within the SS?

A: It was exclusively dealt with by the Reich Physician SS. That was for the entire organization of the SS and police.

Q: And in what field did you now have to overcome the greatest difficulties?

A: I have already mentioned that the biggest calamity or difficulty was the procurement of medical officers for the units which were to be newly established. It was especially difficult to obtain the necessary specialist physicians like surgeons, internal physicians, etc., and with the shortage of physicians prevailing at that time it was natural that the branches of the Wehrmacht and also the civilian sector did not like very much to assign physicians to the other units. And we had especially great difficulties in procuring suitable equipment for our hospitals because the branches of the Wehrmacht had already confiscated equipment in peacetime and they had started in suitable places. They had confiscated equipment and schools at the proper places, while we had at this time to begin in procuring our equipment and objectives. That was not only the SS but also the other organizations like it, organizations like Todt, the Hitler Youth, the Labor Service.

Q: All these measures then were acute in June 1944.

A: Yes.

Q: Now, as a result of the developments of the war, especially through air attack, did you encounter any difficulties, and what was their effect?

A: As a result of the innumerable air attacks in Berlin, and also at other localities, severe damage and destruction was caused and as a result we were unable to function properly since my agency in Berlin was on four occasions damaged to a considerable extent through air attacks. I was forced in the summer of 1943 to find other quarters seventy kilometers from Berlin, and I transferred the larger part of my agency to that place and only had a small staff with the old agency in Berlin.

Q: And if I have correctly understood your previous statements, you would then state that your sole and exclusive tasks consisted of taking care of the "medical service of the Waffen SS".

A: Yes.

Q: Now, did you have a purely organization activity in that task or did you also have a medical work.

A: As I have previously stated, I was mostly active in the troop medical service with organization matters.

Q: According to the extent of your activities which you have described to us, did you have a time and a possibility in excess of that to work yourself with scientific research assignments?

A: No. These scientific orders I had to depend upon the advice of my special collaborators.

Q: Did you ever make your appearance in public in any form as a scientist?

A: I have never had the opportunity to actively work in any research. Besides, in my work as a doctor I never published anything about medical work and therefore, in contrast to the other physicians of the Medical Service of the other branches of the, Wehrmacht, I did not have the title of professor.

Q: Now, what did your staff consist of as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS?

A: I directed the work of my office with seven physicians, two dentists, two pharmacists, and two administrative leaders.

Q: Now, witness, please tell the Tribunal briefly about the organization of your agency. That is, the organization of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS.

A: First of all I was in charge of the organization and I worked on the secret files, the service regulations. Then I gave orders for new re-organizations. I directed the mail and the transportation system. Then comes the Director of the Personnel System, who was in charge of the personnel files and also the card index files and he was in charge of the training of replacements. We had to recruit medical replacement battalions. Furthermore, he had to take care of legal matters. Then comes the leader in charge of the administration. He was in charge of administering the thirty special hospitals. Then he was in charge of the corp of nurses and he had to procure new hospital equipment and, furthermore, he was in charge of the financial matters. Then comes the Chief of the Medical System and the medical service of the troops at home and on the front were subordinate to him. He had to take care of the wounded and the pa tients and he had to take care of the transporting of the wounded and the patients.

He was in charge of the hospital system and then he was in charge of establishing new medical units. He also, took care of the welfare, supply, and replacement system. Furthermore, he was in charge of the convalescent hospitals. Then comes the Chief of the Dental Service. He had to take care of the dental patients, the personnel system and the procurement of replacements. Then comes the Chief of the Pharmaceutical Service. He had to procure all medicines, dressings, and equipment for hospitals and this also included the procuring of food and chemicals. Then comes the Chief of the Hygienic Service. He was charged with the billeting and sanitary conditions of the troops, the combatting of epidemics of troops on the front end at home. He was also in charge of directing the hygienic institutes. That order appeared at the time of August 1943.

Q: Therefore this is an extensive description of your agency?

A: Yes.

Q: Therefore, in the organizational plan of your agency there was also an agency for scientific research and planning not foreseen?

A: No.

Q: In August 1943 was there any important organizational change with regard to the subordination?

A: In line with the re-organization of the Medical Service Himmler gave the order that all my pharmaceutical establishments and hygienic institutes as well as my four office chiefs in August 1943 — I had to turn all of these over to the offices of the Reichs Physician SS and Police. So these institutes came under the supervision of the Raichs Physician SS and Police.

Q: And from what period of time was that?

A: That was August 1943. That was when Gebhardt, Grawitz, and I attended a lecture in the Field Command Post of Himmler at the headquarters and I have mentioned that already in the beginning.

Q: And this change was to become effective on the 1st of September 1943, is that correct?

A: At that time this order as directly dictated by Himmler?

Q: And what was Himmler trying to do with this re-organization?

A: In my opinion, with this he strengthened the position of the Reichs Physician, and the agency of the Reichs Physician SS and Police was built up in the sense of the scientific concentration and the clinical concentration with four educational agencies, it was the Chief of the Clinics, the Chief Dentist, Chief Pharmacist, and Chief Hygienist. On the other hand Himmler was placing me at a disadvantage in my position and he made my work more difficult. I had to work with younger people and I had to achieve the amount of work with more inexperienced personnel in the Medical Service.

DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, I am now coming to the sulfanilamide experiments. Perhaps it would be a convenient time now to call a recess.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 o'clock Monday morning.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, Monday, 3 March 1947.)