1947-03-03, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, ail the defendants are present in court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant at Oberheuser's condition is serious and she is now in the hospital. It appearing that her absence will not prejudice her case, the defendant will be excused from attendance. The Secretary-Gener will note for the record the absence of the Defendant Oberheuser.
KARL GENZKEN — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Defendant Genzken):
Q: Witness, I am now coming to the individual experiments, which were carried out. First of all, the sulfonamide experiments in the concentration camp Ravensbruck. In the previous presentation of the prosecution this has only been mentioned on two occasions. That was at one time an affidavit from the co-defendant —
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal—pardon me for this interruption at this time the prosecution wishes to state that they will withdraw the charges against the Defendant Genzken in connection with the poison experiments and the incendiary bomb experiments in as much as they were conducted after the time that Grawitz took over research, that is after August of 1943.
Will it be necessary for me to repeat?
THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear you.
MR. HARDY: At this time the prosecution wishes to withdraw the charges against the Defendant Genzken in connection with the incendiary bomb experiments and the poison experiments as set forth in the indictment. Therefore, I think it will be more expeditious for the presentation of defendant's case if defense counsel will refrain from covering those two issues.
DR. MERKEL: I shall consider this fact in the course of my examination of this witness.
BY DR. MERKEL:
Q: I am now coming to the sulfonamide experiments —
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, Counsel. The Secretary-General will note for the record that the prosecution has dismissed the charges against Defendant Genzken under Specification K, experiments with poison, and Specification L, the incendiary bomb experiments.
BY DR. MERKEL:
Q: Therefore, in connection with the sulfonamide experiments you are mentioned in two experiments, one of them in connection with an affidavit of the Co-Defendant Fischer, who stated that you attended his lecture at Hohenlychen, and Gebhardt's lecture at that time in May 1943. You were mentioned on the second occasion when in the course of the presentation of evidence of the prosecution, Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was mentioned which furnished the gas gangrene cultures for these experiment. It was stated in this respect that the Hygiene Institute was subordinate to Dr. Mrugowsky and that the latter until August 1943 was subordinate to you. I therefore put the following question to you, witness, in this connection: When did you first find out about the experiments with sulfonamides in the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp?
A: As far as I can remember that was in the summer of 1943. When I returned from my gallstone illness, shortly thereafter, at that time I discovered that Dr. Fischer had given a report on some congress according to which sulfonamide research had been made by Professor Gebhardt and him, and that the patients ward at Ravensbruck had been put at his disposal for that purpose. As a result, it had been achieved that the most part of the supply for the wounded at the front continued to remain in the surgical department.
Q: And where did this meeting take place?
A: As I found out afterwards on the third meeting of the consulting medical officers in Berlin, it was in the Military Medical Academy, and [illegible] place in May 1943.
Q: Did you yourself participate in that meeting?
A: No, I did not attend.
Q: Your Co-Defendant, Dr. Fischer, has stated in his affidavit of the 21st of October 1946, Document472, Prosecution Exhibit 234 in Prosecution Document Book No. 10, page 94, he has claimed that you participated in that meeting. How do you explain the contrast?
A: Well, I was unable to be there because I was sick and I have not heard that lecture.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, in order to support the statement of the witness, may I present two affidavits here in evidence. First, Document Genzken, Number 7. That is on page 15 of my document book which I offer as Genzken Exhibit 1. It is an affidavit of Erich Burkhardt and reads as follows:
I was SS-Unterscharfuehrer, and during the years 1943 and 1944 I was the driver of the former chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen-SS, SS Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Karl Genzken.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment please, is that in the English Document Book?
DR. MERKEL: May I repeat please, it is Document Genzken, Number 7, on page 15 of the Document Book.
I remember that toward the end of April or the beginning of May 1943 I drove Dr. Genzken from Berlin to Karlsbad to take the cure. Sturmbannfuehrer Gross mann accompanied him on this trip. I dropped Dr. Genzken in the SS-hospital at Karlsbad and drove on with Grossman on an official trip to Prague for a few days. From there we returned to Berlin.
Toward the end of May 1943 I fetched Dr. Genzken from Karlsbad after he had finished his cure.
I further offer Genzken document No. 10. It is on page 24 of my document book. I offer it as Genzken Exhibit No. 2. It is an affidavit by Herbert Grossmann and I quote:
I was Chief of Medical. Affairs, and Personnel Official for Medical Personnel of lower rank in the Staff of the Medical Chief of Waffen-SS, Dr. Karl Genzken, from 1942 until the end of the war. I was constantly together with him.
I knew that he had to take a treatment at Karlsbad, on doctor's orders in the Spring of 1943; when he wanted to start on his journey to Karlsbad, he informed me about it, and requested me to accompany him, in order to undertake a personnel inspection at the SS-station Karlsbad and at the SS-hospital at Prague, on this occasion. I agreed, and went to Karlsbad, together with Dr. Genzken, in his staff car, approximately in the last days of April or in the beginning of May. Dr. Genzken got out there, while I carried on my official duties in Karlsbad and Prague, and then returned to Berlin by Dr. Genzken's car. I know that Dr. Genzken remained in Karlsbad for four weeks to take his treatment, and returned to Berlin towards the end of May, or probably only at the beginning of June. Owing to the strenuous treatment at Karlsbad, Dr. Genzken was not entirely fit for work during the first time after his return to Berlin.
In my opinion, it is therefore absolutely impossible, that he took part in the Eastern Congress of Medical Officers in the Military Medical Academy in Berlin, from 24 to 26 May 1943.
That is the end of my quotation. And, it should be indicated in connection with the testimony of the defendant, it should have been proven sufficiently, at that time he had not hoard the report of Professor Buchner respectively of Dr. Gebhardt.
Q: Witness, do you know anything about the fact that gas gangrene and streptococcus was furnished at Ravensbruck for the sulfanilamide experiment?
A: No.
Q: When did you find out about that?
A: I heard that in the course of a preliminary interrogation.
Q: Where did this preliminary interrogation take place?
A: Here in Nurnberg.
Q: Witness, please make a short pause between my question and your answer. When did you hear about the origin of the cultures which were used in the experiments at Ravensbruck?
A: I only heard that from the documents here.
Q: Do you know that those used at Ravensbruck are alleged to have been furnished by the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS?
A: No, I never heard that.
Q: Did you, as Chief of the Medical Office, receive any report from the Hygienic Institute or any other information about that?
A: No, I never received that.
Q: Why not?
A: The Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS was the only Hygienic Institute in the homeland, and it was not only available for assignments by the Waffen-SS but also for the many remaining formations and units of the SS. It was also at the disposal of the Reich Physician SS for his tasks in the field of scientific research. In line with his authority to issue instructions, he could issue orders to the Hygienic Institute and he could also issue secret reports, and by virtue he was then able to say what persons could obtain knowledge of them; however, my person was excluded from that.
Q: Did the Reich Physician SS Grawitz tell you anything about those experiments?
A: No, as I have already stated on Friday, he excluded me from all his experiments and he did not give me any information about them whatsoever.
Q: Did not the co-defendant, Professor Dr. Gebhardt discuss the subject with you?
A: No, he has never discussed it with me. And I have heard of these experiments like everybody else, in the public and during the course of the report of Fischer's.
Q: And, just why did Professor Gebhardt fail to tell you anything about it?
A: I do not know.
Q: Do you know of any correspondence with regard to sulfanilamide experiments, and did you ever see any, officially or unofficially?
A: No.
Q: The information which you just gave to us, where did you obtain this? Did you give this information voluntarily at the time of your interrogation or did the Prosecution ask you for that at the time of your interrogation?
A: I was asked what I knew about such experiments, and then I made the statement voluntarily, which I have just repeated.
Q: I am now coming to paragraph 6-J, the Typhus experiment. Witness, as I have already stated, scientific research and management was not within your field of tasks; that it was that of Reich Physician Grawitz. Did this also include Typhus research and the manufacture of a new vaccine against Typhus?
A: Yes.
Q: According to your knowledge, what was the reason for manufacturing your own vaccine?
A: It has already been mentioned here during the course of the trial, in the year 1941, at the front in the East, and also in the occupied territories and even already within Germany there was a great danger of typhus epidemics.
At the time there was very little vaccine in order to combat typhus because the manufacturing from the intestines of lice was very difficult, and that was the reason.
Q: Now, who decided and who gave he orders about the typhus research and the manufacture of a new vaccine?
A: It was within the field and the competence of the Reich Physician-SS who as the eldest Hygienic inspector, consulted Professor Mrugowsky, and in any case, he did not give me any orders in this connection, and I have not received such an order from [illegible] other side.
Q: What orders did Grawitz give? Do you know anything about that?
A: By virtue of his authority he ordered Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding to establish an institute to carry out research on Typhus and in order manufacture vaccine. And, for this purpose he furnished the concentration Camp Buchenwald, and the use of prisoners who, by order of Himmler, and with the agreement of the inspector of the Concentration Camp, they had been furnished.
Q: Well, when did you first obtain knowledge of this plan?
A: I cannot give the exact period of time, but I assume that I heard about the plan either in the course of the appointment of Dr. Ding to this command at Buchenwald, or somewhat later as a result of his sickness, and according to the affidavit which has been presented here, he, himself, was infected with typhus during the experiments, and I am quite sure that was reported to me.
Q: And, who reported the sickness of Dr. Ding to you?
A: I assume that the SS hospital at [illegible] made the first report to my agency.
Q: Well, were you not [illegible] by the Reich Physician-SS in connection with these experiments and executions?
A: No. I was not called to any meeting or discussion in line with these experiments. I was not called to a meeting where the extension and the location of the instituted was concerned and discussed, nor was I consulted about the progress of research, and I was not asked either about the progress which was occurring in the manufacture of the vaccine.
And, I was not asked either about the way in which the inmates were used.
Q: Why did Grawitz exclude you from all that?
A: As far as I can look over the whole situation today, I am of the opinion that he considered me a persona non grata, and that he wanted to exclude me from everybody on account of that. And, he knew that Himmler had withdrawn all his confidence from me and I heard from Professor Mrugowsky that he had stated on several occasions that Genzken was not to concern himself with scientific research.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, may I present another document in this connection. It is document Genzken No. 1. It is on page [illegible] of my document book, and I offer it in evidence as Genzken Exhibit No. 3. It is an affidavit of co-defendant Dr. Mrugowsky, and I quote:
In approximately spring 1943, I believe it was at a conference of the Staff of the Chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen SS, a conversation took place among other subject, about the competence of the medical offices of Grawitz and Genzken. During the conversation I mentioned that Grawitz had often told me that he alone was responsible for all matters concerning research and planning of the Medical Section within the SS. Dr. Genzken had nothing to do with it.
Thereupon Dr. Genzken confirmed this statement as Grawitz had also told him about this and underlined that he was only responsible for the medical service for the troops of the Waffen SS, for which Juettner, the chief of the SS Operational Main Office, was responsible in military matters.
In addition to my affidavit of 17 October 1946, Exhibit No.282, I make the following statement: In number 4 I testified that Dr. Genzken had ordered the foundation of the department for typhus and virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Buchenwald Concentration Camp, and appointed Dr. Ding Chief of this Section at the beginning of 1942.
I am certain that this was in 1943 and not in 1942. At the beginning of 1943 Dr. Genzken approved Dr. Ding's proposition to call the place of production of typhus vaccine for the SS: 'Section for typhus and virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS.'
And, that is the end of the quotation.
Dr. Mrugowsky's names was mentioned here in paragraph 2, but it has been corrected from what was contained in Prosecution's Exhibit No. 282.
Q: Witness, how frequently did you visit the institute in Buchenwald, officially or unofficially?
A: I have never entered the institute and I have never seen it. The description and the titles of Block 46 and Block 50 were completely unknown to me until that time and I have only heard of them for the first time here in the Palace of Justice.
Q: Why did you fail to visit this Institute at Buchenwald?
A: I never felt responsible for this experimental station in Block 46 and I was mainly interested in the results of the manufacturing of the vaccine in Block 50 which as I now know was stepped up in the summer of 1943, and as Dr. Hogan stated in the middle of August, 1943, it began its production and only in the late fall of 1943 the production of the vaccine really got under way. That was at a time when I was not responsible any more.
Q: Why were you not responsible any more at that time?
A: The period of time that was at the end of August 1943 was before the period of time before the medical service of the Waffen SS was reorganized with the entire SS and the office of the Reich Physician SS was newly organized according to the location of the clinics, and with that period of time, as I have already stated on Friday, the Hygiene Institute came under the Agency of the Reich Physician SS.
Q: Did you from Block 46 receive any written reports about Ding's activities?
A: No, I have never received such scientific reports. I have never seen them. They were never submitted to me and I have never read them.
Q: But Ding, as can be seen from his diary, submitted many reports. To whom were they addressed?
A: As I have heard here in the course of the trial, these reports, as far as they went, over Professor Mrugowsky, they went directly to the Reich Physician SS so that he could further report to the Reich Fuehrer.
Q: Now when were you first informed about this matter by Professor Mrugowsky?
A: I cannot give you the exact date and I cannot remember it exactly, but it is possible that this was in the spring of 1943. I remember that he reported to me that the probable result of the production of the vaccine and that it was planned that thirty thousand portions of the vaccine would be available for the troops of the Waffen SS. I can also remember that he told me on this occasion about two further vaccines, one vaccine came from the army and the other came from a civilian firm, and he told me that the vaccine which we had was that of Gebhardt. That it was intended for the Wehrmacht. That is the only information which I can recall.
Q: Can you perhaps remember any charts which Professor Mrugowsky showed you on that occasion?
A: I cannot remember that Mrugowsky had any documents with him.
Q: What did Mrugowsky tell you about the number of experimental subjects, the number of fatalities and the extent of the experimental series?
A: He cannot have told me very much in detail and this whole report must have been very short, because the numbers of the experimental series and fatalities was shown to me for the first time here in the Palace of Justice.
Q: Won't you say with that that you would have reacted differently if you had been informed in detail about these matters by Dr. Mrugowsky?
A: Yes, I am certain that such big numbers certainly would have remained permanently in my memory. They would have caused a reaction which would have had a very strong effect on me.
Q: Did Professor Mrugowsky tell you anything about this intentional injecting of concentration camp prisoners?
A: If Mrugowsky had told me anything about the fact that people were purposely injected then this fact would also have become firmly established in my memory so that I would have been able to remember it to day.
However, I am unable to remember it.
Q: Well, but you did have knowledge that prisoners were used for clinical purposes, or what did you think these people were being used for?
A: When I heard about this for the first time and when I thought of the experimental series in order to test the effectiveness and compatibility of the vaccine, and after I also heard from the Reich Physician at the beginning of the War that scientific experimental series were used by two Dutch physicians by the name of Zahn and Sachsenhausen, they were used in research, and similar experimental series were carried out at Dachau in the beginning of the war by a certain Dr. Von Beyer, and I myself during my imprisonment at Neuengamme in 1946, as camp physician, I have also seen that the English used hundreds of us for experimental series. That was in order to test a new vaccine against influenza.
Q: Did you ever think as a result of the information which you got from Dr. Mrugowsky that these people were purposely infected?
A: No, because I had not received any previous bacteriological training, I did not reach this bacteriological conclusion. I assumed that observations were to be carried out on people who had been vaccinated and these who had not been vaccinated on the occasion of an epidemic and it did not seem astonishing to me that typhus should occur in as big a camp as Buchenwald, and I was thinking that some solution was to be found for that.
Q: Did you receive any hygienical preliminary training?
A: From 1906 to 1911 I have studied. At that time in the State examination of Hygiene, Bacteriological and Serological subjects was not required. We only had to give proof of the fact that we had participated in a vaccination training course, and in the course of this training the students had to vaccinate each other. Subsequently, I was unable to carry out any research activities because of the first world war. At the time of the first world war I had interrupted my surgical training and then I was organizationally 15 years active in the Navy Section submarine and later on I was ten years with the Waffen SS and I mainly occupied myself with organizational matters and in the big field of Hygiene, the field of bacteriology and serology, and in particular the field of the production of a vaccine, represented a specialized field and I was unable to deal with it.
Q: Did you make a mistake in the course of your previous interrogations with regard to passive and active immunizations?
A: Yes, that is correct, but as I have heard in the meantime, the same thing has happened to other physicians at some time or other.
Q: At the third meeting of the consulting physicians in May, 1943, did you hear the report of Mrugowsky?
A: No, I did not hear the report because as I have already stated I did not attend this meeting.
Q: Is that the same meeting in which Fisher gave his report about sulfanilamides?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know Dr. Ding personally?
A: Yes, I made the acquaintance of Dr. Ding at the hospital in Berlin, and during the first half year of the war when I was a divisional medical officer he was my adjutant and during this period of time as a result of the comradeship we became friends, which you can describe as a fatherly, friendly relationship.
Q: You have heard the statements of the witness Kogan about Ding. Is this description sufficient or do you want to add anything to it?
A: Dr. Kogan's ideas are correct in my mind. I believe that a mistake was made in the interpretation.
Q: Yes, that is correct.
A: Ding was a clever ambitious young man. He had a very friendly manner and perhaps on some occasions he was too friendly and he had a tendency to exaggerate. He had lived through a very hard youth. He was an orphaned child and had been adopted and had to work through his studies. Out of sympathy for his difficult past I began to take care of him and then this fatherly relationship began to form. However, in this connection I want to point out that it was a relationship of mutual respect. He was twenty-five years or more than twenty-five years younger than I. We have never addressed each other in a familiar manner. In Germany we make a difference between "du" and "Sie" — between thou and you. In any care we never addressed each other in the familiar manner and during his stay at Berlin he was never a guest in my house. If I may say so, I had such a relationship with several SS physicians and I can name several.
Q: I believe, witness, that this will be sufficient. Witness, Kogan testified that Ding wanted to exploit you in your position.
A: Yes, I also gained this feeling after some time. I felt this: Ding was trying to gain through my position and that he wanted to succeed me.
Q: On what was your opinion based?
A: When I read the diary then, the entry of the 9th of January came to my particular attention. That is the entry which is also used as a point in the accusation against me.
Q: Let me interrupt you, witness. This is Document 265. It is Prosecution Exhibit 287. It is on page 41 of the Prosecution Document No. 12.
A: According to this entry I am alleged to have given the order for the change in the title of the institute. In reality, I only gave the approval for that and, as Dr. Kogan has correctly stated, I gave the approval for the re-naming of the institute which was producing vaccines and Ding changed this re-naming in his order and I believe that he was trying to give me the credit for this.
That is my opinion.
Q: In this entry of 9 January 1943 you were named as SS Gruppenfuehrer. Did you have that rank at that time? SS Gruppenfuehrer?
A: No, and because of this reason I want to mention that date of 9 January 1943, because I only became Gruppenfuehrer on the 30th of January, and I assume that the approval for the change in the name of the production establishment comes together at the same time as the information which I received from Dr. Mrugowsky and which I have mentioned before.
Q: In the entry you are also mentioned as Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS. Were you that also on 9 January 1943?
A: That came simultaneously with the appointment to Gruppenfuehrer.
Q: Ding claimed that he was main department head. Did any position like that exist in Department 16 of the Waffen SS?
A: No, the position and title of head of Department 16 never existed. He only drew funds from my office because he had been detached from the personnel office through the Reich physician and this perhaps was also a little exaggeration.
Q: In the course of his examination the witness Kogan — and this is on page 1230 of the German record — said that you had given the approval for the establishment of the department for typhus and virus research. Is that correct?
A: It was not, as Kogan stated an "establishment", but it was a renaming of the new production facilities. That was occupied in the middle of August, as I have already stated. It only began its production in late fall. That was at a period of tine when I was not responsible anymore.
Q: But then why was the name of the research department approved when this actually was a production establishment?
A: That in itself is a contradiction of the objective. It is a contrast in the title. However, Kogan has probably given the correct explanation.
The name of this production establishment was suggested by Ding. That was in copying the Army which had an institute for virus and typhus research at Cracow and it likewise had a production establishment there for vaccines.
Q: Ding frequently, without any doubt, was in Berlin also with you. On the occasion of one of his visits at Berlin in the time of 1942 until August 1943 did he give you any details about the experiments, especially about the infecting experiments?
A: No, a report about the infecting process would certainly have remained in my memory, as I have already stated previously, and I cannot remember that he had ever discussed the subject with me.
Q: During this period of time — that is to say, from 1942 until 1943 did he visit Berlin frequently?
A: I have relatively little contact with him at Berlin. Dr. Kogan is probably right when he states that the experiments of Ding were two to four or six experiments per year, and in early March 1943, according to his affidavit, he was sick at that time and he was also taking a convalescent leave in Malente and, as he himself states in the affidavit, he was then detached to the Pasteur Institute at Paris and he returned from this assignment towards the end of October. So that from March to October Ding was not carrying out any official duties. It may have been in the last week of March, at the time I made a trip to the front — it was a trip to the Eastern front. That was a sector near Leningrad. At that time I was together with Italian medical officers and on my return trip near Riga I had a gall colic attack and then I worked several days in Berlin in order to somehow settle the work which had accumulated in the meantime, and then, as it has been described, in the affidavit, I was in May at Karlsbad for convalescence. Then, approximately in the middle of June, I had again recovered to such an extent that I was able to resume my work. From the annual report of 1943, which Sturmbannfuehrer Ding compiled and which is included here in the documents, it is indicated that Ding towards the end of June until the middle of August was also taking a vacation on a Baltic sea island near Ruegen.
Then, from spring 1942 until August 1943, there were only few winter months and according to the diary it is in these winter months that the main activity was carried out by Ding in his research institute and I believe that at that time the chances of my obtaining any information were very slight.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, in order to complete the record, I want to mention the 2 documents which have just been mentioned by the witness. One is an affidavit by Dr. Ding-Schuler, Document 257, Prosecution Exhibit 283; and the report of Ding is Document 582, Prosecution Exhibit 286. Both documents are located in Document Book 12 of the Prosecution.
Q: Now, witness, how can you explain the fact that you did not find out anything in detail from Ding about his research activity?
A: I certainly was worried about that and I reached the following conclusions: Ding knew that a strained relationship existed between Drawitz and me and my intentional withdrawal from the fields of assignments and field of competence of the Reich Physician within the fields of science and research. Furthermore, Ding knew of my lack of knowledge in bacteriological and serological fields — he knew that from my previous education and training; the possibility also exists that the relationship of respect which existed between him and myself, which Kogan described as a paternal relationship — that this caused him to refrain from telling me any details. And then with a scientific ambition, which Dr. Kogan has also described, this may have caused him to refrain from giving me any more details, so that he would not be hampered in his work, and his progress. Perhaps he was afraid that my attitude might be different from his and therefore avoided discussing the infecting procedure with me. As for myself, I did not discuss any further details because my work in the troop medical service confronted me with other tasks which gave me cause for much worry and troubles.
Q: Dr. Kogan reports in his testimony about official and private correspondence between you and Dr. Ding. What contents did the official and what contents did the private correspondence have?
A: I have already stated that I have not read the scientific reports — that they were not submitted to me; I cannot remember the contents at all in detail of the official correspondence which perhaps Ding addressed to my agency. Nor can I remember that anything was contained in the private letters which might have given details about his activities.
Q: Now why did you not on your own initiative try to obtain details about the experiments at Buchenwald? How can you explain that fact?
A: I never felt responsible for the experimental station. Proof of this is the fact that I never visited it. I was mainly interested in the results which were achieved in the production of vaccine at the production place; that was the interest in my troops. Furthermore, this was the express field of tasks of the Reich Physician because it was within the field of scientific research. I, as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS and Office Chief of the SS Leadership Main Office, did not have any competence about the concentration camps and I had me business in looking into affairs with regards to the prisoners and I was unable to issue any orders in that respect. As I have already mentioned on several occasions, as a result of my relationship to Grawitz I was particularly reserved, I made every effort to keep away from his field of competence, the bacteriological-serological field; and regarding the production of vaccines in my field I have already stayed in detail.
Q: By whom was Ding appointed as Chief of the Experimental Station at Buchenwald?
A: Grawitz appointed Ding as chief and he initiated the order which the SS personnel office that he was transferred and detached.
Q: Did Grawitz authorize such a transfer of Ding?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Dr. Ding have the same capacity as the Camp Medical Officer at Buchenwald?
A: Grawitz, in conjunction with the physician in charge, Standartenfuehrer Dr. Lolling, ordered that Dr. Ding was to work besides the camp medical officer.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, I consider this an appropriate time to offer certain documents in evidence at this time. The witness has already stated several times that Ding was detached to Buchenwald. I new want to offer Genzken Document 14, on page 30 of my document book, which I offer as Genzken Exhibit No. 4. It is an affidavit by the former Chief of the SS Leadership Main Office, Juettner, and it rounds as follows. (This is to supplement to my document book and is on page 30.) I quote:
There were two kinds of military assignments:
Detached service within a unit on temporary duty, such as orderlies and clerks. They were under their old superiors as far as discipline was concerned.
There were assignments equivalent to a transfer. These assignments were given if the unit to which the person concerned was attached did not yet have its budget set up and the person concerned had to continue to be paid by his old pa**aster. Soldiers whose assignments was equivalent to a transfer were no longer under their old disciplinary superior, but under the superior to whom they had been attached.
The defendant himself has made a little chart which shows the subordination procedure of Blocks 46 and 50 in Concentration Camp Buchenwald. It shows the relationship of subordination of Dr. Ding; this is Genzken Document 11 on page 26 of the document book and I offer it as Genzken Exhibit No. 5. May it please the Tribunal, I believe that on the translation which has been submitted to the Tribunal a broken line was not contained.
There should be a broken line from the Reich Security Main office on the left side of the chart which should go form there to the Reich Criminal Police Office directly below and it should go from there to Block 46.
JUDGE SEBRING: Will you repeat that please?
DR. MERKEL: There should be a broken line. This line should be inserted on the left side of the chart from the Reich Security Main Office down to the Reich Criminal Police Office and from there it should be continued to Block 46. This always that certain official contact would have to be established and I want to apologize that this line was not included in the chart. In order to identify the chart the defendant himself has posted an affidavit and that is Genzken Document 12, on page 27 of my document book, and I offer it as Genzken Exhibit No. 6. I quote:
I give the following explanation to the annexed chart 'Ding's connection with superior agencies until 31 August 1943.' I want to emphasize in this connection that I learn't details about the terms 'Block 46' and 'Block 50' only in the course of the trial.
The typhus experimental station — Block 46- was ordered by the Reich Physician and he had appointed Ding as chief. Therefrom results the immediate subordination under the Reich Physician SS, see connecting line on the chart between Reich Physician and Block 46.
As the typhus experimental station was established with a concentration camp, clinically using convicts with convict nurses, this station was administered by the administration of the concentration camp Buchenwald and therefore was administratively under the Inspector of Concentration Camps or the Economic and Administrative Main Office, which had a medical service of its own, of which in turn the Reich Physician SS was the expert superior.
As I know today, the prisoners, pursuant to an order by Himmler, were assigned at the beginning by the Inspector of Concentration Camps and later on by Reich Criminal Police Office itself, which for its part was a department of the Reich-Security Main Office, whose medical care again rested with the Reich Physician SS and which therefore again was under the command of the Reich Physician SS, as far as medical matters were concerned.
Furthermore, there occasionally existed direct contact between the [illegible] of the experimental station, Dr. Ding, and the personal staff of Himmler.
The prerequisites for a vaccine having been created, the site for the production of vaccines was prepared in Block 50 int he course of the spring and summer of 1943 and occupied the middle of August 1943. Production itself began at the beginning of the winter of 1943 there. This production site, under the new name of "Section for Typhus and Virus Research, Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, Weimar Buchenwald," was officially attached to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin, since the vaccine produced was chiefly destined for the front troops of the Waffen SS. This name referred only to the vaccine production site.
Ding held at the same time the combined offices of head of the production site and of the experimental station, which he on his own initiative included in the name "Section for Typhus and Virus research."
The co-defendant, Dr. Mrugowsky, has seen the chats and the affidavit by Dr. Genzken.
On page 29 of the document book, Document No. 13, which I offer as Genzken Exhibit #7, Dr. Mrugowsky states the following, and I quote:
The two documents, Genzken No. 11 (Chart on Ding's connection with superior agencies, until 31 August 1943) and Genzken No. 12 (affidavit by Dr. Genzken of 13 February 1947) have been shown to me. After careful study of the two documents I acknowledge them to be correct; they represent the real facts truly and completely." In this connection I finally offer Document Genzken #2, located on page 3 of my document book and I offer it in evidence as Genzken Exhibit 8; it is an affidavit by the former administration member of the Concentration Camp Buchenwald and it reads as follows:
From January 1942 until the liberation of the camp on 11 April 1945 I was Head of the administration in Buchenwald concentration camp and can make the following statement:
I Had an insight into the administration of the Buchenwald concentration camp. I know that in Block 46 of the Buchenwald concentration camp, an experimental station for typhus was set up with Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding as head, in spring 1942, and that in spring 1943 it was planned to build Block 50 as a production center for the new, special SS typhus inoculation serum. This production center installed in Block 50 was named as follows: 'Department for Typhus and Virus Research at the Hygiene Institute, of the Waffen SS, Weimar Buchenwald.'
I do not know [illegible] this name to the institute.
From that time, the postal address for official communications for Block 50 was given as: "R. F. S. S. — Department for Typhus and Virus research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, Weimar-Buchenwald." I remember that before this name was adopted, that is before spring 1943, Ding, as chief of the experimental station for typhus and virus research, used the following address: "R. F. S. S. — typhus experimental station Buchenwald."
I do not know whether or not the address included the designation 'Reichsarzt SS.'
I can remember seeing letters with the above address myself.
As Block 46 was occupied by prisoners, and the nursing staff consisted of prisoners and a Cap-, all administrative measures for the hospital of the concentration camp went through the Buchenwald camp administration.
Therefore the Medical administration of the Waffen SS (Sturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Tonnderf) and the administrative chief of the SS Fuehrungshauptant (Operational Main Office) (Franz Mueller, Standartenfuehrer of the Waffen SS) had nothing to do officially with the administration of Block 45.
/s/ BARNEWALD.
May it please the Tribunal, I believe that I have shown through this evidence that this was not subordinated to the Medical Service of the Waffen SS but that it was exclusively subordinated to the Reich Physician SS.
Q: Now what was Dr. Mrugowsky's position towards the Reich Physician SS?
A: Professor Mrugowsky, as the eldest hygiene expert, was at the disposal of the Reich Physician SS for special assignments.
Q: How was it that the Reich Physician used for these experiments at Buchenwald, Professor Mrgowsky, who was your subordinate?
A: Grawitz always tried to keep his own personal staff as small as possible. At the time a certain action by General Unruh was under way and he reorganized all the staffs and withdrew one-third to one-fourth of all the personnel from these staffs and for this reason the Reich Physician tried to keep his own staff as small as possible so that he could convey the impression to his superiors; by virtue of his authority to issue instructions he utilized members of other staffs and this is exactly what he did with my staff. He not only used Professor Mrugowsky but he used the pharmacologist, Dr. Blumenreuther and he used the dentist, Dr. Blaschke; they were working on my staff and he used them for his own special tasks and assignments. It is alleged that he did the same thing with members of other staffs.
Q: Now what was your position with regard to Professor Mrugowsky?
A: I was his superior within the agency in the position which he had in the Waffen-SS; I was his superior as the Chief Hygienist and the Chief of the Hygienic Institute. I also was his superior for the new vaccine production establishment; that is to say, I would have been his superior. However, this never came to pass because it only began its work in December and that was at the time when I was no longer responsible.
Q: And what was your relationship to Dr. Ding?
A: Until his appointment as the Chief of the Experimental Station at Buchenwald I was his superior and from that period of time on my agency only paid him his salary. As I have already stated, he was Chief of the Experimental Station and he was already at that time subordinated to the Reich Physician-SS. As Chief of the production establishment for vaccine he would probably have been subordinated to me but this never really became effective.
Q: And who appointed Dr. Ding's deputy?
A: As is indicated by the documents, the Reich Physician-SS Grawitz by way of the medical officer in charge of the concentration camps—he appointed Lolling as physician of Buchenwald and he appointed Ding as chief of the clinical experimental station.
Q: Were you able to give such orders in the concentration camp?
A: As Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen-SS in the Administrative Main Office I did not have any medical connection with the concentration camps and the furnishing of prisoners for clinical purposes.
Q: Who was able to give medical orders in the concentration camp?
A: That was the Reich Physician SS and the medical officer in charge of the concentration camps and his collaborators and the camp physicians.
Q: You have previously stated within the concentration camp; did the experimental station belong to a concentration camp?
A: As has been indicated by the documents of the Prosecution, activity in Block 46 was very such connected with the activity in concentration camp.
Q: What effects did this have?
A: As is shown by the files, the experimental station moved from one block to another. First it was in Block 41, then it move the Block 44 and finally moved to Block 49 and in the end it finally remained in Block 46. Then the nursing personnel in this station consisted of prisoners and also the other inmates; and the care for the food and supplies, the construction and equipment, was the business of the administrative chief of the concentration camp. This shows that the experimental station was closely connected with the administration of the camp and therefore other information has been given in the documents about conditions which prevailed among the prisoners.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)