1947-03-03, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
KARL GENZKEN — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Defendant Genzken):
Q: (By Dr. Merkel) Witness, I now turn to the affidavit of the co-defendant Dr. Hoven. This is Document Number 429, Prosecution Exhibit 281, page 1, of the Document Book Number 12 of the prosecution. It is here maintained that according to Ding's utterances you showed a special interest in typhus experiments and Ding had sent you reports on frequent occasions; is that correct?
A: I think that is slightly exaggerated by Dr. Ding.
Q: Dr. Hoven maintains there too that in January 1943 you had given him the order to extend the experimental station; is that correct?
A: This expression "extend" is mixed up. What he meant was the approval for a new station for the production of vaccines.
Q: And now a concluding question on regarding typhus. In the indictment you are charged in connection with the typhus experiments in Buchenwald and you are also charged to have known of similar experiments in Natzweiler. What do you know about that?
A: I only remember the name of Natzweiler in connection with some knowledge that there was a concentration camp there. That's all. I only heard here about experiments being conducted there.
Q: Furthermore, the indictment, under 6-J, charges you with knowing about experiments on typhus, typhoid A and B, cholera and diphtheria. What do you know about that?
A: I did not know that any such experiments were performed.
Q: And now a few more questions regarding the reports on the blood of typhus convalescents sent from various typhus stations. These are the entries 54 and 55 of Document Book 12 of the prosecution, Ding' Diary, Document Number 265, Prosecution Exhibit 287. Do you know Dr. Ellenbeck?
A: Yes.
Q: What do you know about his activity?
A: Ellenbeck was an expert on internal medicine and a specialist in the field of blood circulation, and as such he worked in the Hygiene Institute.
Q: Did you, upon the wish of Dr. Mrugowsky, furnish him with laboratory space in hospitals?
A: Yes, we had very little space in the Hygiene Institute, and laboratory space was vacated in the Institute at Berlin since one laboratory there had to be evacuated, since it was demanded somewhere else.
Q: And when was that?
A: I think it was in the fall of 1943?
Q: To whom was the personnel working there subordinated?
A: It was subordinated to Ellenbeck and not the chief physician of the SS hospital in Berlin. This was a divided competency.
Q: And to whom was Ellenbeck subordinated?
A: He was subordinated to the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS.
Q: Did you know that Ellenbeck received such typhus blood for his hospital from the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A: No, I didn't know that.
Q: In the Ding Diary, on two occasions it is laid down that the blood of the convalescents was sent to the SS operational office, to Berlin to Sturmbannfuehrer Ellenbeck. How do you explain that?
A: It is wrong in that form. This is merely an order to Ellenbeck composed of two orders, one directed to Amtsgruppe D. Berlin, Charleffenburg and to SS hospital Lichterfelde, and that is how this address is composed of Ellenbeck, but that isn't really correct as you put it.
Q: Now, one final question. What did you know about the experiments for the production of a blood coagulation means in Dachau and phlegmen experiments in the concentration camp of Dachau?
A: I only heard here for the first time about these experiments when the prosecution presented their documents.
Q: You never heard anything orally or by writing?
A: No.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions to ask the witness at the moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross examination of this witness by any defense counsel?
EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for Rose)
Q: Witness, did you have any contact with Professor Rose before the 8th of May 1945 or have any written communications with him?
A: No, I didn't know Professor Rose personally at all.
Q: Then you didn't discuss any points with him about the subject of the prosecution?
A: No, not at all.
DR. FRITZ: No further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. BOEHM (Counsel for Poppendick)
Q: Dr. Genzken, can you state where the defendant Poppendick was active during the years before the war?
A: Poppendick was working in the office for race and settlement as a physician and he was there before the war as a leading physician.
Q: Do you know where Poppendick was from the beginning of the war until the beginning of 1941?
A: At that time he was drafted into the Army.
Q: Is it correct that Poppendick, after having been recalled from the Army in 1941, again worked in the race office?
A: Yes, he again became the leading physician at the race and settlement office.
Q: Do you know that Poppendick, during the war, was a leading physician during that time in the race and settlement office?
A: I didn't quite get your question.
Q: Do you know that Poppendick during the war was the leading physician of the race and settlement office?
A: That's what I told you.
Q: You know the habits of the Reich physician SS and you know the office, and I therefore want to ask you whether it is correct that Dr. Grawitz had a secretary and an adjutant at his personal disposal?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Who actually was in the anteroom of Grawitz's office?
A: In the anteroom there was a secretary. She was there at all times and had her desk there.
Q: Is it further correct that Grawitz was in the habit of dealing with his office work himself with the help of his secretary?
A: Yes, he used to deal with his work personally. He dictated all his letters personally.
Q: What was Poppendick's designation after Grawitz's office was reorganized in September 1943?
A: Would you repeat?
Q: What was Poppendick's designation after the agency of Grawitz was reorganized in September 1943?
A: He was chief of the personal office.
Q: Was such a designation placed in or outside of these offices of Grawitz?
A: No, I never read it.
Q: After that period of time, that is, after September 1943 did you notice any changes which could indicate that a special office was furnished under the leadership of Poppendick?
A: No.
Q: In the correspondence of the Reich Physician SS, as far as it came to your knowledge, did you see the designation, personal office or chief of personal office, be it as a letterhead, be it as a signature, or any other way?
A: No, I never read that. I never read it in any correspondence.
Q: Now, if, after the time of 1943 Grawitz sent you any official correspondence did they have a notation made by Poppendick or who made notes on these letters?
A: All the letters from Grawitz were signed by Grawitz himself are not by Poppendick.
Q: Then, according to what you noticed after the fall of 1943, no change occurred with reference to the correspondence of Grawitz or any other of his office activity in comparison to the time that went before?
A: No, I had no impression that any change occurred.
Q: Was there any change in the anteroom or did the secretary of Grawitz still continue to work there?
A: The secretary always worked there and whenever she wasn't present the adjutant took her place.
Q: Was Poppendick present during the discussions which you had with Grawitz?
A: Grawitz always received me personally.
Q: Was Poppendick sort of a personal adjutant of Grawitz?
A: No, he had an adjutant. He certainly was not. Well, Poppendick was not an adjutant of the Reichsarzt Grawitz.
Q: Thank you. Did Poppendick exercise any functions which were in accordance with the task of a chief of staff? Did he perhaps have authority to sign for him or any similar authority?
A: No.
Q: Is it correct that Poppendick, since 1943 and 1944, had volunteered for front commitment.
A: Yes, yes, he approached me.
Q: Do you know whether Poppendick subsequently was assured of being committed at the front?
A: Yes, Grawitz assured him of that.
Q: But why was that continually postponed?
A: The war had advanced and the commanders of the divisions, whenever a successor was necessary, tried to get such a successor from the already existing personnel in their army division. The divisional commanders knew about Poppendick and they were aware that he had no experience with troops on the basis of his activity and certainly no experience at the eastern front.
Q: Did you ever speak to Poppendick about any experiments on human beings which are the subject of the indictment?
A: No, we never discussed that.
DR. BOEHM: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KRAUSS: Mr. President, please permit me to put two questions to the witness.
EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS (Counsel for Rostock)
Q: Witness, did Professor Rostock in his capacity as leader of the office of science and research with the Reich commissioner for health and medical services have a right of supervision or a duty of supervision in medical research matters, and that with reference to the institutions of the SS?
A: Friday I already stated that Professor Brandt had been told by Himmler, as I had learned from Professor Grawitz's utterances, that Brandt would have nothing to do with any affairs belonging to the medical service of the SS, and from that one can conclude that Professor Rostock as a Collaborator of Professor Brandt would have acted in accordance with that order.
Q: In that case you would say that if that order was true of Professor Brandt it must have been true of Professor Rostock?
A: Yes.
Q: Witness, did Professor Rostock at any time issue directives to the medical office of the SS?
A: No, I never received any directives from him and I had never any official contact with Professor Rostock, either verbally or by way of writing.
DR. KRAUSS: Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. FLEMMING (for the defendant Mrugrowsky)
Q: Witness, Dr. Mrugrowsky was active in your medical office as Departmental Chief of the Department of Hygiene. Was he an expert in your office?
A: Yes.
Q: How was the official contact between you and Mrugowsky?
A: Mrugrowsky took part during all the discussions with experts. He reported on his official trips and official correspondence, and reported his experience, and I, accordingly, issued orders or directives whatever had to be done in reference to the bad state of Hygiene or contagious diseases. During such occasions I also ordered him to carry out official trips.
Q: Had Professor Mrugowsky any opportunity to carry out such measures in the Hygiene field on his own initiative, in the field of the Waffen SS, measures which he considered to be corrected?
A: He made suggestions as they referred to his special field, then transferred it to me and according to my judgement, gave orders which I then issued for the troops. He only had authority to issued orders in the capacity as Chief of the Institute and within its field of Hygiene.
Q: You said, that within his sphere of office, as Hygienest, he had authority to issue orders?
A: Well, he had collaborators and he could issue orders to them, and that was especially true in his institute, the Hygiene Institute.
Q: But, otherwise, he could not have carried out any measures on the Hygiene Field in the SS which he seemed to be corrected?
A: He always had to go over my military authority.
Q: Now, with reference to the other organizations of the SS; for instance, concentration camps or other organizations which were subordinated to the medical office of the Waffen-SS, could he carry out any measures on his own initiative if he thought they should be corrected?
A: No, there you had the same situation; he had no authority to issue orders.
Q: Did the authority to issue orders with regard to Mrugrowsky change when he was subordinated to Grawitz up to 1st September 1943?
A: No, he always remained the expert; he had no authority to issue orders.
Q: In his capacity as Chief of the Institute, did Mrugrowsky often go on official trips?
A: Yes, he often went on trips to the front.
Q: Were his trips to be approved at all times by you?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember one such official trip, when he went to Schanau, to the East, which was approved for June and July 1942, and from which he returned after a considerable delay?
A: Yes, I remember this incident because this was the only time when I had to be energetic toward him. I think isn't we agreed that he would given a foreign trips and he only returned in August. And, at that time I reprimanded him, and he, as an excuse, said he had stayed with some command from Prussia, but I expected him to make a report and that was the reason I was annoyed.
Q: You said that he returned in August. Do you remember whether that was the beginning or the middle or the end of August?
A: I don't remember that incident. This entire trip — he must have returned at the end of August, yes.
Q: Did you ever feel that Mrugrowsky wanted to get your position as Medical Chief of the Waffen-SS?
A: No, that is not correct.
Q: Did Mrugrowsky become a bacteriologist and hygienist in the Waffen-SS after being completely skilled in that field?
A: Yes, he went as a completely educated expert to our department.
Q: Did he have to thank the SS for any additional education and training in bacteriology and hygiene?
A: No.
Q: What was the way in which Mrugrowsky worked in this institute?
A: In accordance with his ways and mannerisms, he went about his work very energetically. He personally showed great interest in it, and whenever he issued any orders he saw to it that they were carried out and supervised the order.
Q: Who was Mrugrowsky's representatives in the Hygiene Institute whenever he was absent?
A: It was some Hygienest there, but that often varied because the Hygienest of his institute were used for front matters.
Q: What was the official relationship of Mrugrowsky to Grawitz? Was he in any close connection with him?
A: No, one can hardly say that. It was no personal relationship at all.
Q: Did he give Grawitz orders at any time?
A: I don't know anything about that.
Q: Do you know his opinion about the work and the conception of the work of Grawitz?
A: Yes, there was a differences of opinion there. Grawitz's manners were such that he interfered in all possible affairs and put his personality into the foreground under all circumstances, where Mrugrowsky did much material work and did not make so much fuss about his activities and personality.
Q: Do you know how Grawitz limited the scope of work of Mrugrowsky when he took him over with the Hygienic Institute in 1943?
A: If I remember, I learned from Blumenreuther, that was the Chief Pharmacist who had the Pharmaceutical office in the agency of the SS, then he had explained to Mrugrowsky that nothing would be changed in his work; that he would further remain the Chief of the Hygiene Institute, and as up to the present, he would, be as he said, loosely connected to them.
Q: Did Mrugowsky take part in the inter-life, so-called, of the Grawitz Agency?
A: Mrugowsky, had his office in the Hygiene Institute which was outside at Schlachtensee, a western suburb of Berlin, and he did not participate in the meetings at the agency of the Reichsarzt, and as far as I know, he had no office at all in the agency of the Reichsarzt.
Q: Did Mrugowsky have anything to do with the German Red Cross?
A: No.
Q: Did he have any personal connections to Himmler?
A: No, I don't know anything about that.
Q: Did he have any personal connections to Conti?
A: No, I don't know anything about that.
Q: Do you know that Himmler, in the year 1942 or 1943, demanded that Mrugowsky should change his name which had a Polish sound, and do you know what Mrugowsky's attitude toward that was?
A: Yes, it is correct that he was approached with such a demand, and he, as I understand it, managed not to realize that wish.
Q: You know the basis of the presentation of the Prosecution, and on the basis of the trial here, the extent of the typhus experiments in Buchenwald. Could Mrugowsky, at any time, have made demands on his own initiative to get the inmates of the concentration camps for purposes of typhus experiments.
A: No, he couldn't have done that. He had nothing to do with that.
Q: Did Mrugowsky have any possibility to order the typhus experiments in Buchenwald upon his own initiative, or could he have had the possibility, on his own initiative, to see to it that these were dropped?
A: On the basis of his position in the medical office and in the SS operational office, he had no authority inside the concentration camps, and had nothing to do with the entire administration of inmates, and he had no business interfering.
Q: When you were examined by the Defense Counsel, you stated that in the English imprisonment camp Neuengamme, experiments were carried out on prisoners of war with influenza vaccine. Did I understand you correctly?
A: Yes, these were, new influenza vaccines. It was told to me personally by the English physician.
Q: Were you personally vaccinated too?
A: No, I had to compile the vaccination list. Three thousand were demanded and a number of people were to be vaccinated and a number of people were to be left alone. Altogether there were 1700, I think, of which 850 were vaccinated and 850 were not.
Q: Were you, at that time, considered with volunteers, who had given their approval?
A: No, these 850, I had to select them from the camp and I had to put them at the disposal for this purpose, so it was not on a volunteer basis.
Q: Were you concerned with a vaccine of living or dead bacteria?
A: The English physician didn't tell me that.
Q: Did the experimental subject enjoy any advantages with reference to nourishment or anything else?
A: No.
Q: Was there a danger of an epidemic in the camp at that time?
A: The camp was greatly over crowded. Ten to twelve thousand people were in the camp and afterwards only eight thousand. I don't know whether these figures are quite correct with reference to the time when they were vaccinated.
Q: At any rate — may I interrupt you. Would you say that any danger would have existed on the basis of this over-crowded condition? My question was: Do you know whether at that time there was any acute danger of an epidemic of influenza for any reason?
A: No, no cases of influenza had appeared, not to any large extent.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you. I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK Counsel for the defendant, Hoven)
Q: Witness, during the examination by your defense counsel you stated the following:
As can be seen from the document the Reichsarzt SS, in accordance with the leading physician of the concentration camp appointed the representative of Dr. Ding.
I am now asking you witness, what do you know from your own knowledge by whom Dr. Hoven was appointed as the representative for the experimental station at Block 49?
A: I didn't know at all that Dr. Hoven was the Deputy or was assigned or appointed to be a Deputy, and I don't know anything about Block 46. I emphasized that I know that from the files and I think Dr. Kogan testified to that effect, namely that the Reichsarzt had appointed you as the camp physician of Buchenwald as the man in charge of the medical service of the concentration camps.
Q: Well in order to clarify that point I am merely basing your statement on what you have stated here.
A: That is what I said at the time.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution may cross-examine the witness:
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Dr. Genzken, you entered the Waffen SS as a Sturmbannfuehrer voluntarily on March 1st, 1936, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: On what date did you become the Chief Medical Officer of all concentration camps?
A: That must have been in the spring of 1937.
Q: And you remained in that capacity until 1940, is that correct?
A: 1939.
Q: Now your title at that time was Chief Medical Officer of the SS, Death-Head Units in Concentration Camps, was it not?
A: I didn't quite get that.
Q: You bore the title at that time, that is between 1937 and 1939 of Chief Medical Officer of the SS Death-Head Units in Concentration Camps, did you not?
A: The situation was the following: In the medical office of the SS there were two medical Departments. I was the chief of that second medical department. The second medical department dealt with the supplying of concentration camps material and the supplying of personnel. In this position I was —
Q: We will get to that in a moment. I am coming to that. During the period that you held this position, your title was Chief Medical Officer of the SS Death-Head Units in Concentration Camps, wasn't it. That was the way you signed your name on all correspondence, was it not? Yes or no, doctor?
A: No.
Q: And all concentration camp brigades at that time were under Eicke, were they not?
A: Yes, there were no concentration camp brigades, and I certainly wasn't the Chief Medical Officer of the Concentration Camp Brigades. I merely said I was the consulting chief of Eicke within the medical service and he was the inspector of the concentration camps.
Q: And you also headed one of the two departments of the SS Medical Service and you were charged with supplying medical equipment and the supervision of medical personnel in the concentration camps, isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Well in that capacity you were subordinated to Dr. Grawitz, is that right?
A: Yes, he was the Chief of the SS Medical Department.
A: Well now in summation, between 1937 and 1939 you were subordinate to Grawitz on the one hand and to Eicke on the other, weren't you?
A: Yes, I was his consulting physician. My department for instance was in Berlin, whereas Eicke's agency was outside in Oranienburg where he had his department.
Q: Now, wasn't this Eicke a fabulous character? Can you tell us something about Eicke?
A: Eicke had been active with the Navy during the first world war and in some treasury capacity. He must have been a paymaster as far as I remember. He came from a career as a civil servant. He had a strong inclination toward being a leader of troops, an office. In the General SS he was in charge of the unit there as far as I remember. He was an energetic, active, dynamic character. He was a worker who did much during day's work and from the point of view of his being a superior I always had the impression that he was just towards his subordinates. He always acted very energetic and severely whenever something went wrong or wasn't done right.
Q: What happened to Eicke, doctor?
A: At the outbreak of the war Eicke became a divisional commander, activated a division and lived through the Western campaign with that division. After the Western campaign this division was committed in the East and after approximately six months he was wounded there. He stayed at the Sachsenhausen in Berlin when he was wounded, but in spite of having a bone injury which hadn't healed yet, he went back to his division at the front, and after having been committed in the northern part of the Eastern front he was transferred to the central part, and there during an intelligence trip was shot down by the Russians and fell there.
Q: Well now during Eicke's time as head of the concentration camp, wasn't he the gentleman who handled extermination of Jews within the framework of the concentration camps?
A: I know nothing at that time about any extermination actions that were carried out in concentration camps and I am sure that was not case.
Q: You mean to tell me, doctor, you didn't know they were exterminating Jews in concentration camps as early as January, 1939? As a matter of fact they were doing it in 1937 and 1938?
A: I know nothing about that.
Q: Didn't Eicke have another program whereby he accomplished his extermination by working the inmates to death, and this he referred to as "extermination through work". Haven't you ever heard of that either?
A: No, this is a completely strange matter which I am hearing here for the first time. In my time conditions in concentration camps were absolutely in good order as far as hygiene was concerned and cleanliness. All the inmates had their bed rooms, their by rooms. He had a mess kit. He had cabinet space for his clothing. Commission came there from the Red Cross and from the Army who were really surprised about the cleanliness and order in the concentration camps. I know nothing about anything you are telling me and I certainly didn't make any such observations.
Q: You were responsible for the physical condition of the inmates within the concentration camps at that time, weren't you?
A: Yes, the camp physicians were under my jurisdiction.
Q: How many concentration camps were under your jurisdiction, doctor
A: Up to the outbreak of the war, there was Schenhausen, Dachau — those were the two eldest. Then in 1938 Buchenwald was added. In 1938, Mauthausen and Flossenbrueck, and shortly before the war, Neuengamme. That was only a little camp with same brick work adjoining it. These are the camps which, according to my memory, were known to me.
Q: Now, about how many people were incarcerated in the concentration camps at that time — in total?
A: I can't give you the total figure.
Q: About 50,000?
A: Naturally, whenever I wanted to know the figure I didn't receive a reply. I can only estimate. On the basis of the number of patients that were there I estimate that there were approximately eight to ten thousand people in Dachau which I think was the maximum number of people that could be kept in Dachau — perhaps eight thousand or less. In Sachenhausen the figure may have been a little higher — perhaps one or two thousand more. Buchenwald was just being activated.
Q: How many deaths did you have a year in each concentration camp?
A: I can't remember the figure. The mortality figures in our clinical institution, which were instituted in the concentration camps — they were called hospital blocks — were absolutely within the limits of any normal hospital or clinical institution.
Q: Now, doctor, you seem to be a little bit vague about some of these things. Wasn't it your duty to physically examine the inmates in these camps wasn't it the duty of the camp physicians who were your subordinates to examine those inmates at various intervals, particularly whenever you had such a thing as a transfer of several hundred inmates from one camp to another? Wasn't it necessary for you to examine those people to see if they were physically able to travel?
A: Well, I didn't personally make these examinations. I had certain supervisory duties. That is, to inspect the camps, and I know that the camp physicians examined every one who was taken into the camp. This was recorded this certificate of health — and as far as I know went into the personnel files of the people concerned.
Q: Now, as a matter of fact, it was your job to submit medical reports to Eicke and Grawitz monthly, wasn't it?
A: As far as I remember, monthly reports were made as it was done with fighting units.
Q: Well, now, do you maintain, doctor, that during the time that you were chief medical officer of these concentration camps that the camps were somewhat similar to a Boy Scout health camp? That there weren't any conditions of filth, death? Everything was just nice, was it?
A: I can only say that I exercised my right of inspection. For instance, I had no pass which enabled me to enter the camp at any time. Whenever I wanted to visit and inspect the concentration camp I had to receive a pass from the inspector. I had to pass that to the commander of the camp and only then could I enter the camp. Whenever I went there it was in perfect order. I never saw anything which was in any way similar to what you seem to indicate.
Q: Did they conduct you on your inspection? You didn't have a free hand? You could not walk around as you wished?
A: Most of the time the camp commander accompanied me whenever I went around the camp. Within the area of the hospital I stayed with the camp physician. I mostly inspected the kitchen in the camp which was hygienically equipped with boiling equipment, various pots, various rooms for preparing of potatoes and vegetables, ice boxes. Then I inspected the laundries where the laundry was taken care of and I also inspected the housing facilities. They were always in order. The beds were well constructed, ventilation was in order, and that is the impression I always gained of the camps.
Q: You're sure that you were inspecting the concentration camp and not the SS barracks within the camp — not the SS officers' quarters and the particular section of the camp in which the SS troops were quartered? Did you go into the inner camp on these inspection trips?
A: As I just stated, I reported to the camp commander who accompanied me. My inspection always ended at the hospital through which I was led by the camp physician. In the hospital there were clinical departments, operational theaters, everything modernly equipped with operational tables, X-ray department. There was a bathing department with electrical bathing facilities. There were various rest rooms, springs on operational beds, and I was caring for the inmates better than for the men working in the front lines. That is what I can tell you about my inspection trips to concentration camps.
Q: Well now, doctor, I assume that you know or that you realize the conditions existing in the camps during your time. It was a matter of common knowledge even in America. Now, it is also my understanding that even the unspeakable Oswald. Pohl had some misgivings about the conditions of the camps during your time. At the time when he was to take over the economic administration he wasn't particularly satisfied with some of the things that were going on under Eicke. How do you justify this attractive description you give of the conditions of the camps in your time when you haven't got a shred of evidence to prove that was true?
A: The time of Pohl was in 1942. I was speaking about the time 1937 to 1939. I know that Pohl took over the camps in the Spring of 1942.
Q: That is correct.
A: My descriptions are true of the time of 1937 to 1939. That is peace time.
Q: Well, now, doctor, in May, 1940 —
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I'm going on to another subject. If you wish to adjourn for the noon recess at this time it would be appropriate.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)