1947-03-05, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)

AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330, 5 March 1947)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

KARL GEBHARDT — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. SEIDL:

Q: Witness, what were the general security measures adopted in connection with the experiments by you the aim of which was, quite obviously, that whenever possible deaths or serious damage to the experimental parsons was to be excluded?

A: I have made every effort coming about the accomplishment of the experiments should be described so clearly that it was without my initiative — this is something I want to repeat — there was no order, no personal connection, no suggestion of any type on the part of any of the gentlemen from the Armed Forces or the members of the second meeting. But, on the other hand, I should like to emphasize equally strongly that for the me carrying out, as far as their scientific and human side are concerned, I feel fully responsible and I am picturing it openly according to the reconstruction I am arriving at according to my reaction. The starting point was that right from the beginning conditions for the experiments, such as were assumed by Grawitz in a conversation with Himmler, namely, that wounds similar to war wounds were to be the starting point of an affliction were never at any time allowed to creep into these experiments by me. The second to my mind rather relevant point, is that I did not in any way discuss this plan with any of my collaborators, or make suggestions and then left the subordinate to his fate. But this carrying out of the plan was my work and that I am describing is well or as badly as it ran when I am talking to you now. I think that the main security measures were that after all, one of the best surgeons of the Waffen-SS, coming from the old school, who had only dealt with other special fields, was personally carrying out the clinical side of those experiments.

There was, therefore, no doubt to me, something which later on became a disaster concerning Himmler's attitude, that the experiments were going on near Hohenlychen. It was not my view that in such outrageous matters of colossal importance one would send a medical assistant officer off to Dachau then make an occasional inspection and then if there are a number of dead people or something wrong has gone on one deserts the person in question and says "I thought this would have run differently". You know Fischer's story, and I am sure he is going to be quite open about his own view of the matter and with reference to my influence with you, anyway you know that my old collaborator at Hohenlychen held that institute in the highest esteem and it couldn't have been immaterial to them. It wasn't immaterial to them that we were suddenly involved in a concentration camp experiment. It is quite clear that I listened to any objections. And it is quite clear that I tried to work as sincerely as possible. And it is also clear that none of my subordinates could take an order from me if I were to have assumed the authority of someone about me.

I did not imagine that we would get to the point where not only my personal reputation but that of my old institute, my sanatorium, would be at stake, and that they would be considered equivalent to a concentration camp, which we are now told was whit happened. Himmler and the SS were most responsible for this point and that was clear to me at the time. Anyway, we entered into this experiment with a clear cut authority from the RSHA and we drafted instructions for the experiments giving approximate figures, and Grawitz, of course, basing himself on his pseudo-scientific conceptions, was speaking about large scale experiments. And I, on the other hand, was fighting for every man being used. I changed conditions since Grawitz could not judge the surgical side of the matter at all. And I in my capacity as a well known surgeon at the time refused to have an internist interfere with my business.

Q: Earlier on you used the word Grossversuch, large scale experiment, but in reality in documents submitted by the prosecution the figure of 205 persons occurs which were selected for experiments according to the Grawitz plan.

What is the situation there?

A: Well, actually, we had to make reports regarding the number of people one had to expect if that experiment would go on for any length of time, and we attached considerable importance to it that the RSHA should check and deliberately place at our disposal as their responsibility the right number of people. I think I can remember that at some point I had explicit information that 205 people were definitely sentenced to death had been chosen. Whether this was said in connection with the Poles, I cannot say from my recollection.

Q: When carrying out these experiments was the defendant Dr. Fritz Fischer involved; what was the reason for you to choose Dr. Fischer particularly in connection with these experiments?

A: That is probably the most bitter point of my responsibility, after the prosecution had come to the harmless decision that the outcast of surgeons and humanity, Gebhardt, had found a willing tool in Fischer. I chose the best man, holding the most important position in Hohenlychen, working on the most seriously ill patients, I chose him against his will and put him in that frightful position, And, if there is one thing I regret, it is that I asked Fischer to make that sacrifice.

It is quite easy to say a young doctor, who does not know much, should be given a chance to got to work without supervision, but that means you did not know conditions in Germany. I know Fischer's personality and there was a station in Hohenlychen dealing with the most seriously ill patients, it was outside our hospital and it was my former ward having sixty beds and that contained most seriously ill patients who could be found in the whole sanitarium. There was one assistant doctor there immediately responsible to the chief without supervision of the Oberarzt (chief doctor). For years and years I was looking for the right man so that my back could be covered if I had to leave. From the scientific point of view and from the human point of view, Fischer was the right man for the job. And now, someone is to try to tell me what the training period was supposed to be for that man. For three years he was a pathologist working in the biggest clinic and hospital in Berlin; he was working in a hospital with 2,200 beds and right out of this, he was appointed deputy chief because he had all scientific, human and intellectual qualifications.

From 1938 to 1939 he worked there independently exploiting the scientific points of the work. I would have thought that an American would understand that one would not overlook seven or eight years of progress and that one would chose the right talent for the right spot.

I had very close connections with this Virchow hospital after I had been offered to go to the Virchow hospital also in Berlin, as chief surgeon. A surgeon who had worked in Sauerbruch came at the same time with me. I was given this high position and I initiated the Warm Springs — an American Spa — at Hohenlychen with the same American condition. I visited Virchow and we had approximately the same installations. During the next years of peace, I had opportunity to find for myself the best man for that hospital and that was Fischer, whom I called to my clinic, along about that time. Fischer had worked under me for two years directly in one station only working on people who had nothing to do with the experimental prisoners.

It was under my supervision that after the three years of scientific training, training under me of High classical scientific teaching, that for one year Fischer was at the front during the same winter collapse as when I was there. He came back with the same experiences that I came back with, he knew the front, he knew our patients at home. Then I not only used my own efforts, but also the efforts of tie man who was indispensable to Hohenlychen and made him use every free hour to go the concentration camp, to the place where the seriously ill patients were and have him take care of every seriously ill patient there. The case of every report, which I received came from Fischer either orally or in writing and he also reported about his experimental patients.

Q: Fischer was your assistant at Hohenlychen, but was also SS Obersturmfuehrer; he was also your military subordinate and you were his general; is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct. I don't know whether Fischer over volunteered to come to me, he was recommended to me as the most valuable person from the hospital. He was with the cavalry storm troopers of the General SS and turned up with the Waffen SS and consequently was under my jurisdiction. I wanted him to become my assistant and if I took care of a man during his training period, then it was Fischer, not only because of his tremendous personal capabilities, but also for other reasons, such as his scientific out-put and humane and medical attitude. He justified my confidence at every moment. Just because it had been a decision for me, an important decision to take an experiment in a concentration camp away from Grawitz, it was because I went to the concentration camp with my own assistant.

Q: Fischer carried out the experiments together with you and by your order; that is clear is it not?

A: Fischer never worked independently by himself. There was always a question of differentiating between things I instituted. There are laws between surgeons which you have to understand and see the point. Naturally, I would not carry cut a minor operation by myself and naturally I would not have done that in Hohenlychen in any case. Particularly because of the few days I spent in Hohenlychen I had to deal with the outstanding aseptic surgery cases. I would not have dealt with gangrene cases at all neither in connection with other surgeons or myself. In order to make clear such responsibility, I always did something that is entirely customary among German surgeons, that is I carried out the first incision myself and that meant it was my operation.

That is the way I want you to see this and you can always hoar from the discussion and statement of the witness that whenever Gebhardt wanted to finish up everything, there was friction with younger men. I would not say that "I am a General, you are young and untrained." I would say in the presence of all the witnesses, "I have carried out these operations on you, this is my operation and Fischer merely assisted me." But, with all the tremendous power of my authority, which passed through my person as a General and a chief of the Research Institute, I pushed Fischer and brought it to bear on him and Fischer's of course had no doubt what it meant. Thus, due to Fischer's intervention entirely, it was due to his intervention, that the experiments caused so few lives.

Q: Was it your impression of Fischer that he was enthusiastic about these experiments?

A: I have already told you earlier there was considerable difficulty in my clinic, difficulties which I had to clear myself. It was incredible in the case of Hohenlychen that we, who never had any dealings with Ravensbruck, who never before or after had a visiting medical officer from Ravensbruck, who had never visited Ravensbruck ourselves, we, by order from Grawitz, whom I could evade quite successfully on other occasions, should be included in this affair. On the other hand it is not a habit of generals once I made a decision that I should have discussions about it with my subordinates. I made it clear that I had taken on this order, received this order and the question now was to make sure it was carried out as decently as possible and that Hohenlychen would stand for that. That meant that I, myself, Gebhardt, would accept the responsibility, and that it was not Fischer's responsibility, is proved by reports he sent at the front.

It is quite clear and I do not have to emphasize how bravely he fought and lost his arm at the front and it only shows what kind of man he is. It shows what kind of a man Fischer was for when his arm was shot off he remained at the front with the troops for several days until after he had taken care of the last injured man and it was only then he allowed the amputation operation to take place. There was of course the second operation due to very serious complications and as soon as possible after that he went back to the front. Had I not forced him to be detailed for x-rays at Berlin, he would be dead now, as it was his wish that he should fall, that he should die.

Q: And I now come to the participation of the defendant Herta Oberhaeuser in the experiments; before the beginning of these experiments had you known the defendant Herta Oberhaeuser?

A: I can only describe to you the impression to which I beg the high Tribunal to attack a certain amount of weight. Herta Oberhaeuser played a noble part and tried so decently and kindly to take care of the patients, that at one state I took notice of her when she was applying dressings. During these initial arguments between Grawitz, when it was a question — when it was a question of man opposing man and soldier opposing soldier he had the higher rank, there were some subordinates who were no longer aware. Naturally, that little girl did not play a part, nor did she have any criminal instincts, nor did she try to do anything in a particularly cruel fashion. What I thought of her and how decently she acted in this desperate situation with which we were faced is something from which you can derive another conclusion, something connected with the entire disaster with which we were faced. I tried always to treat particularly decent those people who I had forced into the situation.

Herta Oberhaeuser was definitely unhappy, she had to act as medical officer in a concentration camp, but not because she was participating in any particular crimes which are charged against her. The dominating feature was that in that concentration camp there were prostitutes ready to be chosen for brothels, there were insane people and God knows what else. She wanted to leave that atmosphere and I took her along as a woman doctor to Hohenlychen. The impression her work made on me, her presence made on me, is proved in the best way from the fact that from the civilian department she was transferred to the women's and children's department a department where she had to take care of about 160 people. She also became the doctor of my family and my children. Had I had the impression that she was acting in a particularly reckless and criminal manner, I would not have called her to that position nor if she had reminded me of anything which I myself did not consider to be quite correct. She had excellent training over a number of years. At some point her department had detached her from service, then the duty of secrecy was imposed upon her and these special duties did not allow her to leave the concentration camp had it not been through us.

She was the station doctor attached to this experimental station which we had especially created for experimental persons, but she only becomes visible when we start being concerned with moment. She helped us reliably and decently, and most of all she had a staff of Poles working for her, something which seems to be forgotten somewhat by now, namely, that there were a group of Poles who quite happily collaborated with the Germans. The nurses and the sisters were Poles, and the head sister, head nurse was German, so that as far as I could judge the position, and also during the subsequent period when she had this confidential position at Hohenlychen, I considered her to show great signs of human decency and reliability.

Q: Defendant Oberhauser, therefore, was seen by you for the first time in Ravensbruck after the experiments had already started?

A: Yes. Quite certainly she was not there during the beginning initial period of the experiments because they were concerned with men and then later at some stage a women station was created, and it was at that point at which she became the station doctor.

I can remember that whenever I was applying large dressings myself Defendant Oberhauser somehow seemed to be there in her capacity as the ward doctor who received her instructions through us.

Q: Did Defendant Oberhauser participate in any conferences which you had with Dr. Grawitz or any other medical man or high-ranking officer of the Waffen-SS dealing with such experiments?

A: Certainly not. The whole situation was that all preliminary discussions or plannings, as you might call them, were merely discussions which she had with me alone. The carrying out was my responsibility and Fischer was my assistant. The ward medical officer was Oberhauser. Therefore, we talked about the taking care and the therapeutical effect and any possible incidents, but the discussions, the arguments between Grawitz and myself were such that if there were witnesses, then it wouldn't have been subordinate officers and certainly not a woman. Any inference of participation on Herta Oberhauser's part is out of the question.

Q: Defendant Oberhauser was actually working on venereal diseases and skin diseases?

A: Yes.

Q: When carrying out these experiments, did you have any personal or scientific interest in the woman?

A: No, not at all. I don't want to say the wrong thing, but I think she probably didn't appreciate the real meaning of our work at the fronts, and certainly I wouldn't have taken steps to communicate it to her.

Q: Defendant Dr. Oberhauser has been accused that she hadn't taken sufficient care of patients, and one woman witness stated that when she came to after an anesthetic, she had her face slapped by Dr. Oberhauser. What are your observations in that respect, and what can you say about them?

A: I hope that the High Tribunal will give me an opportunity to deal with the question of observations made and judgment passed by concentration camp inmates. There was the spiritual infection which would be in existence in such a case, and there was the question of passing on rumors. I do not believe that the situation was such as described by Dr. Mazka, namely, that when I went there, every thing was in order, and had deteriorated when I left It is a little too difficult to reorganize everything, because, after all, nobody know the times when I would come. For instance, when I had to go to Stalingrad and had already checked out of Ravensbruck, my worry and concern made me turn around, and once again I went back to the camp in order to see if only that part of the experiments was continued which was justifiable for the brief period of my absence. Therefore, I would have had to see it if any particular change in conditions had been made during my absence.

With reference to the details such as they have been described here, I want to say that it is a most peculiar affair which would never be prevalent in any judicial or legal picture, that the person who has suffered, has been operated on, has been sick would not only say what happened to him, what he went through, but would also speak about the value of the operations.

Every thing that happened in connection with the operations would describe the case history, in fact, would give an expert opinion. I have neither the right nor the intention to criticize these poor women personally. I am perfectly convinced that they were trying to be as honest in speaking, as honestly as they knew, but I would like to point out that now after three years, and under the considerable pressure of the press and the journal situation, private interrogations, they would give just that picture of the situation which is now an actuality.

We, of course, as doctors know that there is no greater chance for misinterpretation than doctors' actions being described by laymen, and this question of hitting someone after an anesthetic is one of the most typical examples of this. Whatever literature you read about the problems of anesthetics, you will always find a chapter, at the end of which it says: if someone recovers from the depth of this sleep, then he would usually misinterpret the person or over-estimate the value of the person when he finds that he is faced with. You all know from literature the tremendous worship which suddenly makes the anesthetic nurse appear as the operating surgeon or some frightfully important person, or which, on the other hand, when someone is just coming back to consciousness, while his tongue is sticking to his gums, that he cannot breathe freely, will suddenly start shaking himself in fear of suffocation, and the, of course, there are the first reflexes of coming to his argument with an egotist. It is cheap to consider that sort of thing implicating a tale against a woman or to have statements made that faces were covered. I would have taken a job away from any assistant or doctor at Hohenlychen if he had allowed a patient to watch a dressing being applied, and if an accusation can be raised in this connection, then it is that was not carried out severely enough and strictly enough.

You all know that if a person is suffering and facing his diseases without justified criticism and when they suddenly see an operation scar or some blood escaping or a piece of detached flesh, then that will impress itself firmly in their minds as the dramatic point of all the happenings in question. Therefore, does the patient not only vomit during the dressing, not only does he shout, not only will he become excited and impede the progress of the dressing, but he will also psychologically be under pressure, and it underlines the fact that the laws of decent clinical treatment were applied us in the concentration camp, too, whem we find that they were so covered during the change of dressings that they could not see their own wounds. At any rate, all these are instructions based only schooling and not cruelties committed by this little woman.

Q: Was Defendant Dr. Oberhauser independent as a doctor at Ravensbruck or was she subject to the instructions from the chief camp and station officers?

A: She was the lowest back-room girl in this military table of organizations. I know how difficult I found it to get her out of there. After all I had a male staff of officers, and somehow she as an expert doctor was attached to this staff for venereal diseases naturally fully subordinated to the lowest camp doctor working there.

Q: What work did Defendant Oberhauser carry out before the experiments in connection with those experimental persons?

A: I have emphasized it strongly, and thank God this is something which can be proved clearly by individual statements made by witnesses, that we had nothing to do with the selection, that these people were called up according to a nominal role which had been compiled elsewhere, but, of course, we wanted to know whether there was not a patient who had additional diseases who had come into this infection experiment. I didn't have anybody better to carry out examinations of that kind than Oberhauser, and it is not right to say that every man in Hohenlychen had been carefully examined by specialists six times before they were operated on, but it is, after all, a place where the fact that every witness states that she was either x-rayed or that her heart and her lungs were checked, and that even for one or two days her temperature was taken before the experiment actually started, that they were bathed, that the legs were shaved before the cut was made and that drugs were given them. If you always take the fitting pieces of all this testimony, then you will show that these clinics were taking care of just as much as they were taking care of at Hohenlychen at the same time.

Don't forget we weren't in America; we didn't have money and time and medical officers in abundance. I had no choice; I had to deal with 1,000 to 1500 people in case of an epidemic in Hohenlychen, and I had doctors to take care of two hundred patients. I myself had to fly back and forth in order to be able to assume my responsibilities everywhere, and that, of course, was the case in Ravensbruck, too.

At any rate, if somebody was operated on and not previously examined to the last point as is now wanted by democrats living in a peace period, then it is my fault; my collaborators did what they could considering the lack of time.

Q: What was Defendant Oberhauser's part in actual experiments and operations?

A: I can only tell you that if I was there, Oberhauser was never there, or, at any rate, she doesn't seem to be there by recollection. In each group I would look at the beginning and I would watch the decisive change of dressings, and in no case could I carry out more in the case of any individual station at Hohenlychen because it was impossible from the point of view of numbers of people. All I can remember in the case of Oberhaucer is that she was present when bandages were changed, that she came along with the patients, that she was taking down the type of medicine that was to be given them, and that was all I can remember. Whether and to what extent she assisted Fischer, stood by during the case of an operation, please don't asked me to give you that during my testimony now considering that in the meantime I have dealt with thousands of wounded men in other places.

Q: The experiments for the trying out of the effect of sulfonamides was carried out at Ravensbruck, weren't they?

A: Yes.

Q: Please, will you tell the Tribunal how this sick bay was equipped, and what the conditions were from the point of view of hygiene and the medical point of view?

A: Oh, we have had all that. If it was said that a station at Ravensbruck was as good as a field hospital for German soldiers, then we were told that that was lies and cowardice on our part to say anything like that. Well, that isn't my view. I don't think that in the case of a well-run station the medical side must necessarily be well-run. It is, in my opinion, correct to say that a good doctor should be capable of improvising and should be capable of operating decently in a hayloft or in Russia in a field. What we did take care of was that things were started well in Ravensbruck. I can only say under oath something which has been repeated here in spite of the tendency which creeps into these stories that in the case of gangrene that there was an operating room for gangrenous infections and one for not gangrenous infections, and in 1942 that was something which fifty percent of hospitals in large German towns no longer had, and in the field certainly never had since it was quite impossible to separate these two types of operating rooms. I know that operating rooms were decently equipped, but I had the same objections which any surgeon would have operating on foreign soil, that I didn't know the material, that I didn't know the personnel, particularly because they were Polish with whom one was working together.

The x-ray assistant who was working with Stumpfegger was Dr. Muenster, who was well known to me. There were four Polish nurses working there, so that the situation was that we decided that for the really decisive matters we should bring along whom we could possibly bring along, and the things which we brought along were medical supplies and, to my knowledge, some laundry and other things which were needed, and of course, surgical instruments.

Q: The sick bay had also been established with a modern radio, is that right?

A: If I remember correctly, that was the only thing we brought along, but I may be wrong, and either the x-ray equipment wasn't there or it was inferior, so that when we asked for it, a certain amount of equipment was supplied, and I think the x-ray equipment was among that.

Q: The initial experiments were carried out on professional criminals from the concentration camp Sachenhausen, I believe, people who had been sentenced to death. How many people were that?

A: I have told you what the instructions were with reference to the experiments. We started with people under death sentences and repeatedly I had the assurance that my conditions would be applied, and to my knowledge on the 12, 13 and 14 of July, approximately, there were three occasions when five people were dealt with in a preliminary experiment.

Q: These experiments were also carried out in Ravensbruck, weren't they?

A: They dealt with men coming to Ravensbruck from Sachenhausen. In Ravensbruck, They were kept in some small camp outside, because I do know that dressings were applied outside the women's camp, but that they were brought in for the operation and that there was a separated section in the women's sick bay, something I also know. Also the actual operations took place in the same department in which the others took place but I think the dressings were changed outside the camp and there was a perpetual traveling back and forth.

Q: And what was the detailed instructions which you gave?

A: These instructions were quite simple. We had a clear cut order. Certain preparations, the value of which was for the work at the front, were to be checked quite from the beginning.

We had orders to test the preparations zibazol, ultraseptil, Dr. Morrell's preparations, and the most important German preparations, then eleudron and katoxin, which always plays an important part, and which is considered a most modern preparation, and that is a preparation which I thought most promising because contrary to all others it did create oxygen in the wound, so that we could assume that even if the gangrenous process did start the oxygen which was accumulated would prevent repercussion. Unfortunately that preparation kept the least of the promises; and on the other hand there was a fight for wounds of a nature similar to war wounds or for infections which gave a picture similar to war wounds but which were created in quite a different manner, and now we are being accused particularly that we had inflicted wounds. Apparently were supposed to have been so brutal as to have opened a small piece of tissue by means of a knife. As an illustration, of harm done by infection I experienced that, the witness Martin in the last trial had been vaccinated, and then went back, and got dirty in the camp and gangrene killed him in spite of two operations which I carried out. Naturally the situation is this: If I make an injection just haphazardly without seeing the texture of the flesh, then I risk subsequent bleeding and I don't know what the wound conditions are, and with a very small incision I might be very lucky, but I might be very unlucky. To the surgeon there is nothing more harmless and clearer and obvious than the plainly visible wound conditions of a straight cut which will heal up afterwards given the necessary assistance. Seeing the wound condition to a surgeon is the most important of the whole thing. We certainly used the conditions which would produce war infections, that is, to see the infection bleeding and then produce gas gangrene, and now we are being criticized from two sides. Some say "Good God, you used gas gangrene? What a dreadful crime. Anyone who is touched by gas gangrene is in danger." That is stupid and it is untrue. The Brunner publications will show you or any other publications will show you that there are carriers of gas gangrene who never have been ill with gangrene, so that mere contact with gangrene does not mean a person will suffer from gas gangrene, only a layman will say that, and then, of course, there is a point of view of the expert:

"How can you make that sort of an experiment. This is only torturing human beings, because if you don't have tissue which is already destroyed, then gas gangrene can never happen." That was the point of view which was correct until about 1905 and if a student in 1906 said that during an examination it was incorrect. I suppose the real situation is that gas gangrene can be caused in two ways, either a tissue is without oxygen and fresh air entering into it, and this can come about in two ways, and this is most important with reference to the instructions I gave for my experiments. Once, if a tissue is eliminated from the nourishing process which I will deal with only in part and perhaps later on I shall have to spend a half an hour in dealing with the theory of the cutting off of tissue, but anyway only if there is a partial cutting off some tissue will die and be short of oxygen. The way in which gas gangrene really comes about is this: Through a change of pressure. I would cut myself somewhat and my hand would be infected with gas gangrene. If I move that hand, the germs will move into the muscular tissue, and if I hit it against this piece of wood as I am doing now, and make quick movements of some sort, then the muscles will contract and then expand, and different pressure conditions will result. At one moment the blood will circulate freely because they are resting or moving rhythmical or there will be an absolute cutting off of circulation because during a quick movement I have caused the pressure to be altered, through this change of pressure I have lack of oxygen or free oxygen in the tissue, and these are the conditions causing gas gangrene. This gas gangrene will exist particularly, apart from gas gangrene, there are other bacteria prevalent, because these germs such as streptococci and staphylococci, and other ordinary infections, in other words will eat up all the oxygen first, and would quickly create a high type of gas gangrene, which you will only have at last to deal with. In other words, in modern therapy if I may quote Domen and I will say something quite clearly which I will submit in my second document book. It is never recognizable with the naked eye to what extent these germs penetrate into the tissue.

In other words, the inflammation and liquid which emerges as a result of the death of the tissue and the death of the cells in the flesh or the dissolution of the muscular tissue, are consequences of the toxin effects and not the results of mechanical momentum. It is just exactly the other way around. Serious damage to the muscle is, therefore, not a necessary prerequisite to gas gangrene. Generally, they are the results, the outcome of it. The decisive question, therefore, which I faced with is this: What is the more harmless or more secure for the human being? Advancing step by step after the partial exclusion of the breathing process with perfect quiet for the tissue, or some sort of injection and movement and alteration of pressure conditions, which I am not capable of controlling, and [illegible] it with something not hygienic, and gas gangrene will ensue, maybe in a joint, maybe anywhere else. This was the decisive question in my instructions for the experiments. I want pictures similar to gas gangrene, this mixture of gangrene and not gangrene, that is what I wanted, and so if a serious case history would develop I wanted that it should occur at an accessible part of the body, to which I would have access with all power of my surgery. I want to clarify this joke of "controlling persons, I do not know how they were in the case of others and I do not wish to pass judgment on it, but, the texts of 1944 for preventative treatments of wounds say, that is is the decisive means we have in the battle against gas gangrene.

A: (continued) No doctor in the whole of Germany is guilty of negligence in the case of gas gangrene if he is not giving sulfonamide. But, if he does not put the man on the operating table and does not recklessly sacrifice, by means of operation, all of the muscle tissue then he is guilty. If he decides to inject serum here that is a matter of medical views. Any way, as far as our control persons are concerned when we began our first experiments we had people there. We had 15 men who exposed the wound, apply mixed infection, and then we gave the sulfonamide as he been ordered. Persons night say that you couldn't really expect a proper infection. That is quite true. However, it is an old custom about surgery, that if you proceed on strange territory without no hygienic conditions, and start operating, if you take germs along — which one must — and of such and such a strength. Then any responsible surgeon will plan experiments in such a way that first of all he will try to become clear whether there may be actual danger of scams. This preliminary experiment involved 15 persons and showed that the density which was expected was correct. There were no other germs involved, as tetanus. And that during operations no dirt crept in, so that we were carefully stumbling through the experiment slowly stop by stop. I considered that previous experiment was justifiable.

Q: Which experiment was that? Was tetanus not used in some of these experiments?

A: No tetanus was never used. You know the way the problem occurred in Germany at the time, namely, we know sulfonamides had no effect on tetanus, and the tetanus problem in this War had been fully solved. Not in one of these reports would you find any long winded discussion about therapy with tetanus needing any changes. We neither artificially created tetanus, nor did any tetanus ever crop up through any accident.

Q: These fifteen male experimental prospects we are talking about, did they suffer any permanent damage to their health?

A: I have told you that they suffered no damage, and were all right after a brief period.

Q: Well, they why were experiments on professional male criminals not continued?

A: Now we come to some circumstances where we should see a sudden complete charge against any suggestion or agreement. I was hoping that the thing would just carry on and that the second actual group would come about approximately bring the second half July after discussing it with Fischer. He was near there, my conscientious Fischer, came to see me in sick bed and said, "Chief, in spite of your orders I did not continue work today. The experimental subject who was brought into the operating room under anesthesia, was contrary to our orders and agreements, a woman. I was informed that they had been ordered from above which considered the harmless character of the experiments justified that from now on the work was permissible on women." It is Fischer's merit that he reacted right away at once, did not carry out any work and came to no. It is quite possible that there was a heated discussion, I can't remember the details. I may have said leave it to no to solve this out, you are an officer. At any rate there was a step to my knowledge of the experiments until the middle of August, approximately a fortnight, and during the fortnight I visited these people who had carried out this complete alteration of my suggestion. First of all I went to see Grawitz. Grawitz gave me vague information, mentioned Nebe, Himmler, RSHA, and he mentioned often that after consultation with Himmler it had happened the experiments were changed completely. I am convinced to say that the reasons were on one side that it was so difficult to bring men into the woman's camp and also to observe secrecy.

And I am convinced that through reports we had to give Himmler, Himmler, received information that the whole thing was so harmless, and I am also convinced that Grawitz himself aimed at breaking relations which would enable him to carry our experiments as well. But Himmler decided it with him the breaking of our agreement with indignation, The point of view adopted by Himmler at the time was this: first of all he had come to the conclusion that I was spending too much time and becoming too apparent in connection with the matter. Instruction for the experiments were quite clear and the matter should be allowed to go through and not at all necessary that I should cause an upset. Secondly, he also pointed out to me that these apparently obviously harmless experiments carried out according to plan meant a great reprieve for these people and would be applied to Polish women there, who clearly had been condemned to death already, during these long days I examined the question again and again — whether it was wrong that I should have listened to Himmler's trends of thought and then proceed in the manner which I will shortly describe to you. Of course, it is very simple to start at the end of the story and to say — these poor, brave, valuable, women were here infected by a criminal with gangrene and operated on in a disgusting manner. That is not the starting point. The starting point is the fact that women had been sentenced according to martial law, as is customary everywhere. In connection with this, this question I leave open — which German authority was responsible -that is not known to Medics after committing acts of sabotage. As a man and doctor, I find it frightful to see women sentenced to death. After the last war and after this war, I consider it is one of the greatest disgraces that women should have been utilized for the purpose of war, that women should be introduced as intelligence agents who through their work were responsible for the deaths of thousands of German soldiers or other soldiers.

As much as I loath war I have never seen it, however, that power which is then endangered by this would not proceed recklessly and bring anyone to death who would act as an intelligence agent at the rear or front of the fighting. I think that should be the basic point of view. In this manner Himmler described these women to me. I do not doubt they were wonderful patriots who risked their lives as patriots in war and Germany in some way made a decision.

Nor would it be right to say that they were only highly valuable people. I am quite sure that the majority were, but there were instances where there were people who would work for both sides — for this side and the other, and would supply material against us and then they too were sentenced. There is a great difference between extreme patriotism and the cheap patriotism that was for sale and that always placed power had a state, a power to proceed with strict measures. At any rate, I had no doubt, as Himmler said, that these were women sentenced to death who had one chance only, and there seems to have been 700 or 800, I don't know. At any rate they had one chance for survival; namely, if they survived one of my experiments. Was that so impossible an assumption in connection with these women for these experiments? Of course, this question of volunteering — that is a matter of emergency. Whenever someone has quite definitely and finally been sentenced to death — someone who is young — and suddenly has the chance of being operated on by one of the finest German surgeons and them have sulfonamide applied to him and all she sacrifices is a group of muscles in a leg and survives otherwise, surely I had the right to assume that women would make such a decision. The other question, of course, is what was the chance of reprieve and that is the great question in all the further developments. But here too we surely are entitled to a basic viewpoint — that I was told by my commanding officer how he, as the executive power, was planning this. That it did not depend that much on him — that is the other question. They were given a chance to survive, but a question of reprieve, that was subject to a political question. It was subject to their loyalty towards the German state. As far as I know, three of them had signed such a document and they were settled in Sudetenland Germany. One has been repeatedly mentioned here. The others were enthusiastic, patriotic Poles who remained in the concentration camp and they never allowed themselves tempted into freedom on Germany's side. That is the whole entire problem of collaboration, all these matters which are sufficiently known to you in this war. Perhaps I may say that in 1943, during my public appearances, news went through that these intelligence women were in touch, both with the British and Russian sides, according to their political views, and from that moment on they no longer had any reason to keep on good terms with Germany and quite deliberately acted as Polish women of the resistance and went on that way, and I do not believe that you can possibly held it against me that the situation was that Himmler obviously had decided to use Polish women for these experiments and I could no longer refuse.

On the other hand, I was again at liberty to stay out and I am now convinced that the greatest importance was attached by Himmler to the fact that my name should not be connected with the matter any more because I was in touch with people abroad. He probably judged me correctly and knew that whenever I could I would talk to everybody about the experiment, but I do not believe that he meant to say that every Polish woman would be killed in this experiment. That is not what he meant. It was just the other way around. I am sure that Himmler wanted to make an example of 200 women, but, on the other hand, wanted to give them a clear cut chance of getting through and getting over the whole affair. May I remind you that this was all taking place during the difficulties we had after Heydrich's death, and during the time of the most serious political and military events. I am therefore still of the opinion that we are not concerned with volunteers but that the situation was not as these Polish women are describing it now according to which they could survey the entire political situation at the time, but as I am speaking under oath, I will say that during the contacts we had, there was not one occasion when a Polish woman stated a desire to me or a complaint to me but that we just passed by each other without any such exchange. But I must ask you if I may describe the conditions in such a way to make it clear to you that it was obviously credible to me that these women were using this one chance to survive. Anyway, there was no doubt that the experiment would be carried out — that Grawitz was taking over the whole affair, that I had given him the plan for the experiments, but that it was easy for him to give the whole matter a perfectly harmless appearance in his reports.

That, in my decisive attitude to Himmler I had again and again asked the same question: "Is this experiment going to be carried out?" and the answer was "Yes." Then I said: "Right, it will be carried out through me with my medical responsibility."

Q: Witness, you have stated that the experiment would have been carried out under all circumstances even if you yourself had left. Would the instructions have remained the same if Reich medical officer Grawitz had given them?

A: No, definitely not. That is just the difference between Grawitz and myself. Grawitz was after speed and after success. Do not forget that Hitler is in the background all the time and that a decision was expected before the beginning of the new winter. The experiments had to be completed. A decisions was wanted and it was only possible if war wounds were created. I am convinced, as I mentioned before, that without me not one of these Polish women would be alive. It can't be proven to me that the course would have been different. I went in to Hohenlychen with my knowledge, ability, supported by Fischer. That was the guaranty that, apart from three, these Polish women survived and they remained alive afterwards and did not disappear because they might become publicly apparent. I made it perfectly clear to Himmler afterwards what it meant that foreign countries know that these Polish women lived.

Q: Did you yourself, Dr. Fischer or Dr. Oberheuser have anything to do with the selection of these experimental persons?

A: No. Of course, there the same conditions apply. Fischer had nothing to do with these matters, I had nothing to do with these matters. These women were selected and whenever possible Oberheuser would make a preliminary medical checkup and if ten were selected and one was sent back, then there were nine and the experiment was carried out.

Q: Was the selection itself carried out by the R.S.H.A.?

A: Yes, right from the beginning the selection process was such that you knew there was a large number.

I think it was always the figure of 205 which was mentioned which would have been shot under all circumstances.

Q: The experiments were carried out on Polish detainees in such a way that first of all three series of experiments were carried out on three groups of twelve persons each?

A: What I wanted to solve by means of this second experimental group was the task given me in my orders. Namely, the checking up on the drugs prescribed. It was similar to gas gangrene cases so that if there was anything in the sulfonamide drugs which I had reason to hope, then the advantages connected with one or the other drug would become apparent and I would be able to discontinue the experiments. Of course, I couldn't stop at the initial instructions. Now, I really had to go over to an infection — localized and clear cut — and for that there is an internationally known instruction which we didn't invent dealing with locus minoris resistentia — that is to say, the place of least resistance where germs are combined with contact substances. So it wasn't that we inserted dirt, glass, or sand cruelly, and soil particularly, which, after all, is the representative dirt in the wound, was replaced by sterile glass, silicate — chemically speaking, soil and textiles which entered the wound were replaced by us through sterile cellulose — finely ground. You all know that if you cut yourself with a non-sterile piece of glass, inserting it into a wound, and if you do not move the spot, then that glass will heal inside without any special symptoms. The only purpose it has is to act as a catalyst for the germs and to produce obstacles for clear and easy blood penetration and to possibly damage a few cells slightly. In other words, to produce inflammation in the safest and most definite way possible for such an experiment. This is the clearest scientific thought in this sphere. We proceeded in just that manner and we in addition, gave ourselves zibazol, elevdron, sulfonamides and nitrones, given to two comparable persons who, however, were not without protection because they were taken care of in the old established way.

Now, don't you go along with the suggestion that I had to know the prescription regarding sulfonamide introduction? Any such plan should always be considered bad medicine because it is no longer anything original. One thing is characteristic however with sulfonamides and that is that you give a terrific dose — a big dose at the beginning, and here there is a question of whether it is correct to start orally, to start intravenously or to have it eaten. One might mix it and everybody will have a different combination and that is just what we did. I would be a bad scientist if I would write down for you that I knew exactly what happened after the third day. It states expressly in Thomas' statement that any scheme — any pre-arranged, tables are mistakes and that, even today; we do not know the correct way for application of these drugs. It was obviously clear that there was a strong impression made by sulfonamides and, even in the first group, we were astonished to find a certain result; that the idea as such is useful but not for practical purposes. Amongst other things we immediately and simultaneously inserted into the wound a mixture of germs together with sulfonamide powder. That was the only exception made in the first group and that didn't produce any results. Now, if I were a bad scientist then I would have assumed that, in itself, was a success. Whether it was the ultrasepsil or whatever we were using. I would have considered myself satisfied and I would have said everybody is going to take a little bag of sulfonamide along and immediately powder the wounds with it because we know that if they are both simultaneously inserted into the wound the germ and the drug — then there will not be an inflammation. Certainly only in complete ignorance of wound, conditions and war conditions one could adopt that point of view. The sulfonamide bag has its greatest disadvantages, that a man who is badly shot who isn't in a position to act, he would be lying somewhere badly wounded and not be able to do anything. On the other hand, of course, the position is that the surface of the wound can easily be powdered by not its lowest crevice and depth and we know particularly well that sulfonamides have, when employed thus wrongly; caused great damage.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.

(A recess was taken.)