1947-03-12, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

HEBERT KOSMEHL — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION — Continued

BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the Defendant Blome):

Q: Witness, you said before that various complaints about the Euthanasia question were received by the Reich Chamber of Physicians. You were given this kind of complaint and you passed them on to the Party Chancellery. I am interested in finding out why you passed them on to the Party Chancellery. Why did you just send them on to this office?

A: The Party Chancellery was competent for all complaints that arose from the State or Party circles or from the population. Since I was not competent in the matter of Euthanasia in the main office for Public Health or the Reichs Physician Chamber, I transmitted these complaints to the Party Chancellery because there was the opportunity to stress these complaints on the spot through the Party.

Q: Witness, did you talk to your chief, Dr. Conti, or his deputy, Dr. Blome, about these complaints concerning Euthanasia?

A: I believe I did talk to Blome about them.

Q: Do you know what Blome's position was at that time, what his attitude was?

A: So far as I can remember, I asked him if he knew anything about these matters or whether there is anything to it. I also found out he knew no more about these matters than I did. At that time he knew nothing of Euthanasia program of the German Reich.

Q: If you sent such complaints you received on to the Party Chancellery, did you get any answer from the Party Chancellery or did you learn anything about what was being done about such complaints?

A: I worked during the course of the years very often with the Party Chancellery with such matters, and in general I received some statements regarding what became of the complaints, concerning these few complaints about Euthanasia, I heard, however, nothing from the Party Chancellery.

Q: You got no answer?

A: That is right.

Q: Can you remember whether the Reich Chamber of Physicians or the main Office for Public Health issued any orders or instructions concerning the Euthanasia program to the subordinate agencies, or whether the Reich Chamber of Physicians received any orders or reports or statistics about the Euthanasia program from any superior agency from above?

A: In the course of our business I never saw anything similar to this nor did I pass on any instructions or orders in this matter.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, did you perhaps talk to other experts or other employees of the Reich Chamber of Physicians, and did you learn from them that Dr. Blome had something to do with Euthanasia questions?

A: During lunch time we spoke about all sorts of things but I cannot recall that any single word was said about Dr. Blome and about Euthanasia in this connection.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, did you ever learn that your former chief, Dr. Gerhard Wagner, that is the predecessor of Dr. Conti, was supposed to have prohibited any talk about this problem? Do you know anything about that?

A: Yes, I know about that at a conference of the leaders of the Physicians Chamber in 1934 or 1935, the Chief of the Physicians Chamber, in Sachsen, tried to bring up this subject at the conference and spoke in favor of the Euthanasia Program. Dr. Wagner did not let him speak, he interrupted him immediately with the specific instructions that there was to be no discussion of this question. It was forbidden by Hitler, and was not yet ready to be discussed openly. Consequently it was not discussed.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, we know from the evidence given during this trial that Dr. Conti had a very important position in the Euthanasia program, and, therefore, I should like to hear from you something about the relationship between Dr. Conti and his deputy, Dr. Blome. Was that relationship such that one could assume that Dr. Conti informed his deputy of all details, or was it such that one could assume that Dr. Conti had private contact also with his deputy and discussed everything with him, and what do you know about this from your own observation?

A: First of all, I did not know that Dr. Conti had any role in a Euthanasia program. If that was the case, then that could only be possible in his capacity as State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, because that is the Ministry which was competent for these legal questions However, in this field, Dr. Blome did not represent Dr. Conti.

Insofar as the relationship between Dr. Blome and Dr. Conti are concerned I can only say that the relationship between them from the very beginning was definitely poor. Consequently at the beginning of my testimony I stated that really Dr. Blome had been intended to take the position of Dr. Conti. Dr. Conti was a very ambitious person, hungry for power, also very distrustful of his fellow men, and was prejudiced against Dr. Blome from the very beginning. Neither of the two understood the other at the time they had equivalent offices in the physicians Chamber; Dr. Conti had the same position in Berlin that Dr. Blome had in Mecklenburg, viz, Bauamtsleiter, now, Conti became the Chief, and Blome, against his will, became his deputy. Conti never would have made Blome his deputy on his own initiative.

A: Also they were totally different in personality and philosophy. Dr. Conti was a fanatic opponent to the indulgence in alcohol and nicotine, whereas Dr. Blome took a moderate attitude toward such indulgence. Dr. Conti was very ambitious and distrusted even his closest collaborators, particularly Dr. Blome. Dr. Blome on the other hand liked to pursue a direct path in all matters, to speak frankly and was above all not ambitious, and consequently did not undertake jobs which were not within his competence, that which Dr. Conti would do, and in general he was mere tolerant and moderate. He had an open heart toward all of his co-workers and subordinates.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, if I understand you correctly you assume that the relationship between Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome was so tense one cannot assume that Dr. Conti informed his deputy, Dr. Blome, of everything? Can you say yes or no?

A: I can absolutely answer this by saying that Dr. Conti not only did not work well together with Dr. Blome, but deliberately refrained from informing him on all important matters.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, I should like to ask one last question on the subject of euthanasia. Now on the basis of the trial we know that the execution of the euthanasia program was in the hands of the Amtsaerzte and directors of the insane asylums. Will you please tell us were these official doctors and directors of the insane asylums under the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the disciplinary power of this organization, or were they not?

A: The SS physicians and SA physicians and physicians of the Reich Labor Service, the official doctors (Amtsaerzte) were not under the disciplinary power of the Reich Chamber of Physicians. They were subordinate to a special state disciplinary jurisdiction or to various organizations of the party, the official doctors were subordinate to the Reich Chamber of Physicians only if in addition to their official activities, they had a private practice of their own, and that was in individual cases possible and then if they committed any offense against the rules and regulations in their private practice then the Reich Chamber of Physicians with approval of the competent office could take disciplinary action against them otherwise not.

Q: Then you say that the Amtsaerzte dealing with the euthanasia program were not under the Reich Chamber of Physicians and Dr. Blome. If these doctors received any instructions on statistics and so forth, did they get them from Dr. Blome or through the State Health Administration with which Dr. Blome had nothing to do?

A: In general we did not receive such instructions at all because the Reich Chamber of Physicians or the main office for public health had nothing to do with German Health politics.

Q: Doctor, I asked you whether the Amtsaerzte got their instruction and reports through the Reich Chamber of Physicians or whether they got it through the State Health authorities?

A: I misunderstood the question. The Amtsaerzte received their orders directly from the State, from the Reich Ministry of the Interior not from us. The Reich Chamber of Physicians was simply under the supervision of the Reich Ministry of the Interior but had nothing to do with it actually.

Q: And if these public officials of the medical administration, the Amtsaerzte and heads of the insane asylums, sent reports in, then the Reich Chamber of Physicians did not see these reports?

A: Under no circumstances did the reports of the Amtsaerzte group the Reich Chamber of Physicians. Such reports went to their superiors, along the official channels to tine ministry of the interior.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, in connection with your description of the relationship between Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome, I am interested in one other thing, because we have heard an expert who made several disguised charges against Dr. Blome, and made Dr. Blome responsible for conditions in the medical profession, in particular, the elimination of Jewish doctors step by step from practice, did Dr. Blome have any part in these measures? I am referring to the limitations imposed on the Jewish doctors, and then the regulations, they had to use the name Israel, and they had to wear the Star of David, and so forth. Were these orders of the Reich Chamber of Physicians and did Dr. Blome have anything to do with them, and if so, how?

A: Dr. Blome did not have any part in these things. Also measures on the part of the Reich Chamber of Physicians or the office for public health were not taken against Jews. After Gustloff was murdered in Switzerland and von Rath in Paris, reprisal measures were introduced against Jews and also measures to eliminate Jewish doctors. The Reich Doctor, rather Dr. Conti, was commissioned at that time to carry out the necessary regulations in this field, and he commissioned in turn not Dr. Blome, but a certain Dr. Grothe in Berlin, who was the leader of the Kassenaerztlichen Vereinigung of Germany, an independent organization for panel doctors within the Reich Chamber of Physicians, which advised the German population, so far as they were subject to social security, and among the population the Jews also. Dr. Grothe at that time carried out these measures on orders from Dr. Conti, and I can remember that the Reich Chamber of Physicians in Munich, and thus also Dr. Blome, like all referents in Munich, received these orders as an accomplishment fact but in working them out Dr. Blome was not in any way involved.

Q: Do you know, Dr. Kosmehl, where these regulations originated, these restrictions on the Jewish doctors, and at a later time the exclusion of Jewish doctors from practice, the regulations about the name Israel, the Star of David and so forth?

A: As far as I know these measures originated with a government office and not from the organization of the doctors themselves, but applied not only to the doctors but to the whole of the national economy.

Q: Then, in other words, the Reich Chamber of Physicians was merely an executive organ?

A: As I just said the Reich Chamber of Physicians had nothing to with these things, but simply was the Physicians' Union in Germany, and because it had to do with social security it was the executive office for carrying out these measures, and perhaps Dr. Conti suggested Dr. Grote as the leader since he seemed a particularly good person to carry them out.

There was a directive at the Reich Chamber of Physicians that had a permanent deputy and that he occasionally can give someone a special assignment, and that was the case here just as earlier Dr. Grothe became the leader of the public office of the Chamber of Physicians in Berlin. Also in other cases this path was pursued.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, do you know that in the course of years the relations between Dr. Blome and the Reich leader of physicians, Dr. Conti, became so tense that at the end Dr. Blome even spoke at public meetings of doctors against the plans of Dr. Conti? And, when was this?

A: In the course of the years the relationship between Drs. Conti and Blome became worse and worse. The reason for this was that, aside from personality differences, they differed in their opinion on basic matter Dr. Blome was interested in the removal of physicians in general from the influence of the party, to keep physicians clear of politics altogether whereas, Conti construed his office as Chief Health Officer as purely political. Thus already in 1941 Dr. Conti, for personal advantages made a compromise with Dr. Ley, who at that time was planning a health program for the whole German people. In this it was provided that all Germans, not only workers, also those privately insured, should be brought under a unified national insurance program. And, in connection with this, of course, private insurance should cease to exist so that it would not be possible to choose the physical one wanted freely. Now, of course, all these matters affected the German physicians very intimately. Dr. Blome objected and opposed energetically these plans of Dr. Conti. They quarreled not only on this matter, but also turned to the Party Chancellery for assistance, and Dr. Blome did receive assistance from the Party Chancellery in his opposition to Conti's plans and Dr. Ley's plans. At that time Dr. Blome was commissioned by Bormann perhaps without Conti's knowledge, to work against these plans, and Blome so with the jurists in the Party Chancellery. Blome also called public meetings of German physicians, and there openly opposed these plans for the socialization of medicine, for making physicians officials in the group, and so on. It was also planned in this program to appoint a number of physicians for a certain number of Germans and to give them official position. Blome, as I say, brought these matters up in public meetings, and I attended one in Munich and saw with what enthusiasm most of the German physicians greeted Dr. Blome's remarks, seeing him as a representative of their interests. I know also that because of these open meetings Dr. Blome had great troubles with Dr. Ley, who did not want Blome to interfere openly in these matters.

Blome was forced by Ley at that time to break off his plan for public meetings which he had planned for many large cities. He had already spoken in Hamburg and Duesseldorf. Because of these meeting Dr. Ley wanted to bring Blome before a Party Court, charging him with carrying on activities prejudicial to the Party. But, because of Dr. Bormann's intercession this proceedings was dropped.

Q: Witness, you said that Dr. Blome approached the Party Chancellery for support in his battle for the free selection of the physician. That is, the right for every patient to call in the doctor he wishes, and also in his struggle against socialization of the medical profession. Now, did you learn that thereupon that Dr. Conti gave an order that Dr. Blome should no longer go to higher Party agencies or to the Ministry for information and could not report undesirable conditions?

A: Yes, I know that. This was in about 1942 or 1943; then Dr. Conti issued an order that all the specialists in his office in Munich and Berlin, according to which it was forbidden for an expert or a specialist to turn directly to a Reich Minister, Reichsleiter, or a Gauleiter. Included under this order was also Dr. Blome as his deputy. Whereas such orders had not previously been issued to German physician And, Dr. Wagner, on the contrary let his physicians do what they wanted. This measure of Dr. Conti's surprised everyone, because it included Dr. Blome who was his deputy. We, in Munich at least often discussed this, and all had the impression that this measure was mainly aimed eliminating more and more Dr. Blome.

Q: Then apparently you assume, if I may draw the conclusion from your testimony, that one cannot believe that Dr. Conti informed his deputy of his own knowledge in all cases, especially let us say in questions dealing with the Euthanasia program.

A: I am sure that Conti did not do that. It was part of his whole nature that he kept such things to himself. It is also to be assumed that Dr. Blome was not informed of these important things because Con feared Dr. Blome's competition. In this context I must mention one other thing, which puts Dr. Conti's mistrust toward Dr. Blome into proper light. When Dr. Blome frequently objected to Dr. Conti because he was not consulted in important matters, Dr. Blome then withdrew altogether from political activities. This was at the end of 1941 or it might have been 1942. Dr. Blome moved from Berlin to Munich in order to devote himself solely to tasks that concerned the interest of German physicians, that is, first of all, matters concerning the Reich Chamber of Physicians and to devote himself to cancer research. It was particularly noticeable to all his associates in Munich, that at the same time Blome moved to Munich, Dr. Conti transferred two physicians from Berlin to Munich who enjoyed his particular confidences.

These were Dr. Roehrs and Dr. Schuetz.

Q: Dr. Roehrs and Dr. Schuetz?

A: That's right. The latter had connections with the Gestapo within the scope of the main office for Public Health under Dr. Conti, we noticed that every week packages with mail came to these two gentlemen in unusual manner from Berlin at Conti's office, and these were either sent by courier or in special envelopes on which was printed — Dr. Roehrs. Those were important matters of official business which were sent to Munich from Conti's office in Berlin to be worked on; whereas it was otherwise customary that all mail went through the official mail channels of the two organizations, namely, the Reich Chamber of Physicians and main office for Public Health and then opened, given to the specialists to whom it was addressed, so far as it was not secret or confidential matter. In this case with these special envelopes this was not the case. Those two workers also led us other associates to believe that it was their particular job to supervise the offices in Munich, and to isolate Dr. Blome from all important occurrences and so far as I can judge they were largely successful in this Thus I remember a case which concerned the reformation of German social security, in other words, a field in which German physicians were most eminently interested.

In a matter so important as this, Dr. Conti stated his position in Berlin to the Reich Ministry of Labor and to the Party leadership without saying a word about this to his Deputy, Dr. Blome. This occurrence, like the previous ones, led to a fight between the two men. Dr. Blome, as I know from hearing it from him himself, expressed himself not only to Conti to Dr. Bormann in the Party Chancellery and put all his offices at their disposal. Under these conditions he did not want to carry on any further official activity. In other words, he wanted to resign. Neither Dr. Conti no Bormann accepted his resignation on the grounds that this was war time and that everyone should remain at his post and do what he was assigned.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, do you know that Dr. Conti went so far as to issue written instructions to the personnel of the Reich Chamber of Physicians say that Dr. Blome was to deal only with unimportant things — that all important matters were under Dr. Conti himself?

A: I know of such an order. I saw a memorandum of Dr. Conti's persona ly. It was specifically mentioned in this memorandum to Dr. Blome, that Dr. Conti reserved for himself all important matters and that Dr. Blome was empowered only to deal with incidental and unimportant matters himself. On the basis of this memorandum, Dr. Blome repeatedly said to us, his associates in Munich that this was enough for them, that he no longer wanted to work under these conditions. He wanted to return to his private practice, or devote himself to cancer research exclusively. He was so serious in this intention that we had doubt that he would carry it out. We specialists in Munich, who belonged to his inner circle of friends, then tried to persuade Dr. Blome that this step was impossible. We pointed out to him that he would be betraying German physicians if he withdrew when Dr. Conti was not concerning himself in the interests of German physicians at all. It was an open secret that Dr. Conti, as Reich Hess Leader, paid more attention to German midwives — his mother was leader then he did to German physicians. Dr. Blome had an open mind in this matter, so remained in his official capacity.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, do you know that Dr. Conti repeatedly attempted to have Dr. Blome eliminated completely from his offices? If I am not mistaken, this was with the aid of a certain Dr. Kaufmann. What do you know about the

A: That is correct. I have already said that the relationship between these two men got worse from year to year. After Dr. Blome ceased concerning himself with political matters altogether — as early as 1940 — he went into cancer research very deeply, and later devoted himself to tuberculosis and wrote scientific papers in these fields which were written for the State as the Party offices. He pointed out to the Party that these two sicknesses of more human lives than any other diseases, and he wanted to inaugurate, with help of scientific research, a movement to assist people sick with these diseases. He also informed Dr. Conti of what he was planning because he presumed that Conti would leave him a free hand in this; but when Dr. Conti say this material he interfered immediately and forbade Dr. Blome to send these papers, that he had written, to Hitler or to Party offices. He asked him to give these papers to himself Dr. Conti, so that Dr. Conti could transmit to signed with his name and give them to Hitler. It is understandable to Dr. Blome objected to this. On the other hand, it was in the very nature of Dr. Conti that he answered that in political spheres he had had success in many different branches, and it was obvious that he wanted to take all the credit this work of Dr. Blome's. Dr. Blome then, in opposition to Conti's instruction showed his paper to Dr. Bormann with the request that it be transmitted to Hitler and informed Dr. Conti of what he had done afterwards through a copy. In order to eliminate Dr. Blome, Dr. Conti had earlier taken a Gauamtsleit from Steyermark; namely, Dr. Kaufmann, with him to Berlin as his personal adviser, particularly in the important matter of Dr. Ley's health measures. Kaufmann was to be his advisor in this matter and Dr. Kaufmann was able over the course of years, to gain Dr. Conti's complete confidence, and he exercise this influence in all fields and ruled Dr. Conti, in all these fields. At the end 1943, or the beginning of 1944, Dr. Conti gave a regulation to all collaborate in Munich and Berlin in which it was stated that all important matters should first be submitted to Dr. Kaufmann, and, only via Kaufmann, should they [illegible] to the individual specialists.

It was specifically emphasized here that Dr. Conti's two deputies — Dr. Blome for the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the office for Public Health, and, on the other hand, Dr. Grothe as the leader the Kassenaerztliche Vereinigung Deutschlands (German social security) was not exempt from this measure. This measure on the part of Dr. Conti of course aroused the protest of both Dr. Blome and Dr. Grothe; and, in this matter to Dr. Blome turned to the Party Chancellery for support, and was successful insofar as this broad interpretation of Kaufmann's plenipotentiary powers limited. But so far as practical purposes were concerned, he retained what power he had had.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours, 12 March 1947)