1947-03-12, #3: Doctors' Trial (early afternoon)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.

The Tribunal is again in session.

HEBERT KOSMEHL — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION — Continued

BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the Defendant Blome):

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, before the noon recess you were speaking of the relationship between Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome. This was necessary so that the court will be able to judge whether one can assume that Dr. Conti informed his deputy of all details, for example, concerning euthanasia, and you told us that Dr. Blome repeatedly offered his resignation but that it was not accepted. Now I should like to know the following, if the relationship between these two was as bad as you have described it; then can you say why Dr. Conti did not simply dismiss Dr. Blome, he then could have appointed Dr. Kaufmann, for example, whom you mentioned.

A: I am dealing now with the question I spoke of this morning, when I spoke of Conti's being called as Reich's Health header and Dr. Blome as his assistant. At that time, as I said Dr. Blome was explicitly named Dr. Conti's deputy because it was wished that traditions, as established by Dr. Wagner should be carried on by Dr. Blome. It was not within Dr. Conti's power to appoint his own deputy, nor could he fire his deputy on his own although he certainly would have liked to.

Q: Then you think that was the reason why Dr. Conti had to adjust himself to having a deputy whom he could not agree with?

A: Yes.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, you told us this morning that this Dr. Conti was represented by Dr. Blome in the Reich's Chamber of Physicians as well as in the main office for Public Health?

A: Yes.

Q: Because this term main office for public health' was not translated very well, the German expression is 'Hauptamt fuer Volksgesundheit'. I should like to tell you what kind of an office that was, was it a state office or community office or was it purely a party office?

A: Where, as the Reichs Chamber of Physicians was purely a professional society, the Hauptamt fuer Volksgesundheit was, so to say, the health office of the party, a purely party office which had nothing to do with governmental things.

Q: And since the party office had actually nothing to do with euthanasia, what did this Hauptamt fuer Volksgesundheit have to do with euthanasia?

A: Nothing.

Q: That is what I wanted to clear up so there could be no doubt here. Doctor, is it true that in the on conditions became so difficult that, for example, Dr. Conti regularly went away by railroad when Dr. Blome appeared and vice versa, because both of them wanted to avoid meeting and talking about official matters?

A: That is correct. I can say that both of them would rather see each other from the back rather than from the front.

Q: In order to avoid this condition, Dr. Blome in 1941 is supposed to have made this suggestion that the two of them, Dr. Conti and Dr. Blome, should go to the front alternately so that one would, be at the front for a certain length of time while the other was at home, and after a certain length of time they would exchange places. Do you — know anything about that?

A: Yes, I know of this, I heard this repeatedly from Dr. Blome himself, and he also told me that he had drawn up a memorandum regarding a conference in which he made the suggestions to Dr. Conti. Dr. Blome made the suggestion to Conti particularly because he had taken part in world War I from the beginning until its conclusion as a combat officer and not as a doctor. He had been decorated with the highest decorations, whereas Dr. Conti had really never been a soldier. Consequently, he considered it necessary that Dr. Conti should go to the front since so many German physicians were at the front, Dr. Conti should also see what went on there.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl I shall leave the subject of euthanasia then and go on to another point. In this courtroom the charge has been raised against Dr. Blome that during the Hitler period medical training, post-graduate training, suffered, that the ethics of the medical profession had fallen and that Dr. Blome was as deputy Reichs leader of physicians more or less wholly responsible for this degeneration. Was your knowledge of conditions so deep and so extensive that you can give us any information on this subject?

A: I believe I can give information on this subject. It is not correct to say that the standard of medical ethics and medical post-graduate training got worse during this period. On the contrary, Dr. Blome received from the Reichs Leader of Physicians, Dr. Wagner, the task of building up medical post-graduate study, that means, in other words, that medical post-graduate training theretofore had been at a lower stage. The situation was that for many years many physicians had had no further training in their fields, at least so far as I know. It lay at the discretion of the individual whether he would do anything further to train himself or not. And so it happened that many doctors remained scientifically retarded because they didn't want to take the time to attend lectures in matters that might have been important to them.

Dr. Blome put medical post-graduate training on an entirely new basis, both as a voluntary basis and a physician's duty. He set up medical post-graduate training.

Q: How do you mean, as a duty?

A: In the one case it was left to the discretion of the physician and was to be left so in the future whether or not he studied any certain field further. But for certain specific fields, and, as far as I recall, this applied particularly to specialists, certain arrangements for further study were made and this study was mandatory. If the physician did not attend he could be fined. This was necessary because a large number of German physicians had specialized in a particular field and did not know the human body as a whole organism but simply saw the organism as a whole from their Particular field of specialization, and this was to be avoided.

Q: Then if I have understood you correctly, Dr. Blome issued regulations that general practitioners had to continue their studies. Is that true?

A: It is.

Q: Then where did this training take place? Is it true that in the individual Gaus or in the individual provincial offices there were such training course, do you know?

A: That depended. These courses depended on local conditions. They took place in university rooms or in health centers or places like that. Also in Alrese in Mecklenburg such courses were held.

Q: Because of this medical leader school at Altrese, I repeat Altrese, in Mecklenburg, a special charge has been raised against Dr. Blome here. It has been asserted that it was the obligation of each doctor to spend a few weeks every year for several years at this medical school in Altrese. Is is true that there was this obligation to attend this school at Altrese?

A: That is not correct. Rather, Altrese, as you can see in the name itself, was thought of as a school for medical leaders — as a Fuehrerschule. Thus, primarily, functionaries of the medical professional societies were concerned here. The Reich Physicians Leadership used this school in order to instruct the local Physicians' leaders to inculcate then with their ideas, to make certain problems known to then, such problems as concerned the body of physicians as a whole.

To this extent one can speak of a certain obligation to attend, but let me repeat only for these functionaries among the physicians.

Q: For ordinary doctors who did not have any position as functionaries there was no obligation to attend this so-called Fuehrerschule?

A: No, none at all. Young doctors who had just passed their examinations or had just started practicing wished to attend these courses, but practicing physicians of long standing and specialists were never obliged to attend courses at Altrese.

Q: Do you know that this course at Altrese found great approval among the medical profession and that the number of voluntary applications every year was so great that all doctors could not/be accepted? Do you know that?

A: The last thing you said is true. The actual state of affairs was that many voluntary applications could not be accepted because of overcrowding.

Q: I asked this question, Dr. Kosmehl, only because a charge has been raised against Dr. Blome in this courtroom saying that attendance at this school was obligatory. Now, as to the scientific level of the German medical profession and German research, and the question of Dr. Blome's endeavors in this connection. Doctor, do you know that Dr. Blome took a great interest in medical post-graduate training on an international basis? What can you tell us about that and about his success?

A: In the field of medical post-graduate training Dr. Blome had, in my opinion, great success. He also worked in the international field of medical post-graduate training and accomplished a great deal. That is in the year 1937 there was an international medical post-graduate training course in Berlin in which 44 nations participated and which was carried out with great success. Scientists of world renown were there in various specialist fields and at this congress, on the suggestion of Dr. Blome, the so-called International Medical Academy for Post-Graduate Training was founded.

One year later, in the year 1938, Dr. Blome founded this academy in Budapest. Geheimrat Professor Borst was appointed president of the academy and Dr. Blome was unanimously appointed president of the Permanent Committee.

Q: Just a minute. You mentioned Geheimrat Dr. Borst. Is that the world famous cancer research worker of the University of Munich who died a few weeks ago?

A: Yes, that is the one.

Q: He was president of this International Academy for Medical Post-Graduate Training — that is, a scientific institution for medical postgraduate training on an international basis — and Dr. Blome, you said — ?

A: Dr. Blome was president of the Permanent Office, that is, manager.

Q: And one year earlier, you said, under the direction and responsibility of Dr. Blome there was an International Congress in Berlin, I believe?

A: Yes, in Berlin.

Q: Are you aware that this congress, which was the work of Dr. Blome, was attended by representatives of 44 nations?

A: That is what I said. That was 44. I know that personally.

Q: Then Dr. Kosmehl, I have only a few very brief questions to clarify the personality of Dr. Blome. Dr. Kosmehl, from your official activities and from your private conversations with Dr. Blome, do you know what his attitude is toward the medical treatment of Jews, that is, what it was. In other words, whether he thought that Christian doctors should not treat Jews or vise versa, do you know what he thought on this question?

A: As regards the measures that the State and not the physicians brought about to eliminate the Jewish doctors there was at the same time an order that forbade Jewish doctors from treating members of the German population and conversely German doctors could not treat Jewish patients. This was according to the arrangement by the Kassenarzte Vereingung, which I already mentioned before. But it did happen that a member of a Jewish community fell sick and no Jewish doctor was available. In these cases Dr. Blome, even in conferences at which I took part, repeatedly pointed out in opposition to other doctors, his opinion that it was an absolute human duty for a German doctor to take over treatment of a Jewish person under such circumstances, and if I recall correctly he also stated this at a Congress in Bad Elster in 1942, the question having been brought up specifically by the Reich Chamber of Physicians. I know also that Munich, I am not sure what year it was, a doctor once in such an emergency refused to treat a Jewish patient. The danger arose that he would be tried and Dr. Blome concerned himself greatly as to this question and reported on this matter. Dr. Blome saw to it that this doctor who had refused to help the patient was placed before a Tribunal and penalized.

Q: Now, Dr. Kosmehl, you just used the expression "kassenaertzliche Vereingung", a medical insurance unit. I have been told that the translation of this word into English is very difficult and on the basis of the translation one does not get a very clear picture as to what sort of an organization it was, you can tell me very briefly what "kassenaertztliche Vereingung" means, what the duties of the organization were, very briefly just so the Tribunal will be able to have a picture of what sort of an organization it is.

A: The "Kassenaertztliche Vereinigung" was an assembly of all those doctors who had the right to treat patients who were members of the national health insurance in contra-distinction to such patients who had money of their own or through private insurance called on a physician.

In other words, the physicians in Germany who were allowed to be members were included in this "Kassenaertzliche Vereinigung" and other doctors were not allowed to treat their patients. There were, I believe, sixty per-cent of all the German physicians.

Q: And the head, of this organization was Dr. Grothe?

A: It was Dr. Grothe, yes, whom I mentioned this morning.

Q: Dr. Kosmehl, you mentioned once in passing that Dr. Blome endeavored to keep the medical profession out of politics as long as possible. He tried to keep politics from interfering in the interest of the medical profession. In this connection I should like to ask do you know that Dr. Blome constantly endeavored in view of the fact that the Hauptamt Foer Volksgesundheit and the main office for public health were under the same person, he tried to have this fact changed. He tried to keep the medical profession, the head of the medical profession completely away from party influence.

A: Yes, Dr. Blome wanted to effectuate this separation contrary to the opinion of Dr. Conti, Reich Health Leader. As I said this morning, Dr. Conti wanted to stay in closer touch with party organizations and indeed went so far that the Reich Chamber of Physicians was to be coordinated with the party organization, thus for every gau that the party had, he wanted to set up a special chamber of physicians. That was not otherwise the case, be had, for example, in Bavaria, one chamber of physicians, whereas this district of Bavaria consisted of five political gaus, and it is Dr. Blome's achievement that the situation remained in Bavaria as it was, and the five chambers that Conti wanted were never set up. In Westphalia the situation was the same and in the Rhineland. The one physicians chamber of the Rhineland included several gaus and here Dr. Blome was unable to prevent Dr. Conti from coordination the chamber of physicians with the party.

Q: Then, if I understand you correctly, you say that this again was an effort to keep the medical profession free from the influence of the party?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, can you tell me with respect to the last statement, what did the party offices have to say about it? What did they do in order to retain their influence on the Reich Chamber of Physicians?

A: What you just said is not quite true. The party did not have any immediate influence on the Reich Chamber of Physicians. It attempted year after year to get such influence, even at the very beginning, in the years 1933 and 1934, the Reich Physicians' leader, Dr. Wagner, successfully opposed, these efforts on the part of the party. At that time we knew of the claim to complete power that the party exercised. It repeatedly happened that on Ortsgruppenleiter, or a Kreisleiter or even a Gauleiter on his own initiative interfered in medical matters, and particularly in matters of health insurance in a certain way. Then Dr. Wagner saw to it that the regulation was passed according to which such excesses on the part of the political leaders and interference in matters that concerned physicians were forbidden. This prohibition was very important for the physicians in general and was of great help. Dr. Blome, as the subsequent representative of Dr. Wagner's ideas, wanted to separate the two organizations in so far as they should not be in charge of the same person. He frequently brought this up for discussion and tried to have his way in this. He discussed this once with the Oberbefehlsleiter Friedrichs in my presence. He was the political deputy within the party leadership of Reichs Leader Bormann. Bormann himself and the leading personages refused, however, to carry out this separation of the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the main office for public health. Dr Bormann even went so far as to forbid even any mention of this office and threatened his subordinates in the party chancellery with being fined if they brought it up.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q: Servatius for the Defendant, Karl Brandt.

Witness, you have said that in 1942 when Brandt became Reich Commissioner, Conti became head of the Civilian Health Service under Dr. Brandt. Is that true?

A: I said that this morning, yes.

Q: What was the official relationship between Conti and Brandt?

A: The relation was one neither of subordination or superiority. The so-called Fuehrer Decree of August, '42, which named Dr. Brandt as the Reich Commissioner for health and medical matters had its deeper meaning in the fact that certain contradictions and overlappings between the medical inspection of the Wehrmacht on the one hand and the civilian sector on the other hand should be removed. It had happened —

Q: Witness, do you know the Decree?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: I shall show it to you again. It is Document NO-080, Exhibit 5, Document Book 1 of the Prosecution. Witness, if you will look at number 3 in the Decree, that is the confirmation of what you have testified.

A: Number 3 is right. The question at that time was essentially that Dr. Brandt should try to straighten things out both in the material sphere and in the question of personnel.

Q: Then if you said "Conti's position under Brandt," you mean this relationship according to the Decree?

A: Yes, that is what I meant.

Q: You called Professor Brandt the Reich Commissioner. Is it right that this Decree only appointed him General Commissioner, not Reich Commissioner?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: Later he became Reich Commissioner.

DR. SERVATIUS: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY DR. FROESCHMANN:

Q: Dr. Froeschmann for Viktor Brack. Witness, you were business manager of the main office for public health and of the Reich Chamber of Physicians, is that true?

A: No, I was not business manager. I was legal adviser in the syndicate of these two.

Q: You spoke this morning of the plans which Conti had about the socialization of the medical profession and the abolition of the free choice of the doctor.

A: That is true.

Q: Did Conti give you the assignment to deal with these questions from the legal point of view?

A: No. In conversations during lunch or in other such social situations, we discussed this matter because for a considerable period of time Dr. Conti was much concerned with it.

Q: Witness, assuming that Conti had given you such an assignment, do you agree with me that this would have been a difficult problem because there are many factors to be considered pro and con?

A: That could be, yes. It was a very extensive work if I may so express myself. I never read it in detail, and since it did not fall within my confidence, I am only superficially acquainted with this whole matter.

Q: Would you in this case in the legal treatment of this question of the socialization of doctors have spoken of a program?

A: I can't say.

Q: What do you understand by the word "program"?

A: Under the word "program" I understand it in this context, that deliberate measures were taken toward socialization. In this case, at any rate, I do remember that this was to be taken in a bargain more or less. Dr. Conti did not think much of the plans that Dr. Ley was pursuing. Rather Dr. Conti wanted to pay this high price for Dr. Ley's support to become State Secretary in the Reich Labor Ministry which he was not yet at that time, and because that was his highest ambition, namely, because in this way he would become essentially closer to the Reich Health Leader, and in addition to the other offices that he occupied — he was already a State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior — he wanted to become a State Secretary in the Reich Labor Ministry.

Then his power as health leader of the German Reich would have been complete, and it would have only been a small step to his final goal, namely, Reich Health Minister.

Q: Then, Witness, if I understand you correctly, by "program" you mean a definitely defined field of work which is dealt with according to a certain method. Is that about right?

A: That could be, yes.

Q: Now what evidence do you have that the Reich Government had a Euthanasia program?

A: I have no proof of this program because I did not know of this program.

Q: Then why do you use the term "Euthanasia program" here in the courtroom as a fact?

A: I used this term "program" because I have here found out from Dr. Thoma that there was actually such a program, and I had to assume that it was a fact.

Q: Then if I understand you correctly, you took over a subjective idea of the lawyer of the Defendant Blome, and that is why you used the words "Euthanasia program"?

A: That is true.

Q: Witness, when you heard about Euthanasia at all, did you have anything to do with the Government plans on this question?

A: That was not very possible because —

Q: Let's not use the word "program" anymore. It is incorrect.

A: All right. I heard of these plans only here in my internment camp or in the course of this trial.

Q: Consequently, the legal basis of Euthanasia is as far as it was carried out unknown to you?

A: No, it isn't.

Q: Do you know of the decree of Hitler of the 1st of September, '39?

A: I don't know about it.

Q: Then I may tell you briefly the contents of this decree.

DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, unfortunately, I do not have the decree here, but it is Document NO-630. At the moment I do not know the exhibit number, but I shall find it out.

Q: Witness, this decree says the following: Reichsleiter Bouhler and Professor Dr. Karl Brandt are given the responsibility of extending the functions of certain doctors mentioned by name to the extent that incurably sick persons may be given a mercy death.

Have you understood me?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you agree with me that this was merely an authorization to certain doctors to be allowed to grant a mercy death?

A: This decree that you are referring to was never in the interpretation of this decree, if it reads as you quoted it to me, I should like to agree with you. I am of the same opinion.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor please, I object to any answer to this question by the witness. The witness did not see the decree; he doesn't know anything about the decree. Giving his opinion of such a decree is strictly out of order.

THE PRESIDENT: The objection is well taken. The decree should be procured if Counsel desires to question the witness concerning it.

DR. FROESCHMANN: I beg your pardon. Excuse me a moment. Then for the time being I shall go on to another question.

Q: Witness, when were the complaints received which you mentioned this morning?

A: I do not remember the exact date. It must have been around the time, 1941. I assume it was about that time that two or three inquires of this sort came to our office.

Q: '41, '42, you mean?

A: Yes. That is right.

Q: What was contained in these complaints?

A: As I said this morning, they were inquiries of the Reich Physicians' Leadership asking whether they knew transports were taking patients from one mental institution to another and that in the course of these transports, patients died an unnatural death. This is the general sense of their complaints there are doubts about. They said from information they had received, they knew people had died.

Q: Did these complaints refer to the killing of insane persons?

A: Yes. At least one had to assume that it concerned such matters.

Q: Did the contents of the these complaints indicated a punishable action, that is, the killing of human beings?

A: That is conceivable, but in the course of a year, many complaints and matters of a similar nature came to these two offices. These complaints did not make any particular impression, particularly, if one knew that most of these things were sent by people of bad faith or crack-pots.

Q: Witness, is it true that there were frequently complaints dealing with the fate of some relative which were sent by persons who themselves were psychopathic cases?

A: That I cannot judge.

Q: Why did you send these complaints to the Party Chancellery?

A: I explained that this morning. That was the general procedure, just as a few years previous to that, complaints came in regarding the implementation of sterilization. There is a certain similarity between these two questions. Sterilization affected insane persons and the inmates of mental institutions are also insane. Consequently, our treatment of the two matters was the same.

Q: That is your personal opinion, Witness?

A: Yes.

Q: You had nothing further to do with the Euthanasia program in practice, did you?

A: No.

Q: You did not know the reasons Euthanasia was introduced in 1939. In your testimony, did you not confuse the Party Chancellery with the Chancellery of the Fuehrer?

A: No.

Q: Did you know the Chancellery of the Fuehrer was competent to deal with such complaints from the population?

A: No. In the course of the ten years that I held my office, we only had individual dealings with the Fuehrer's Chancellery. I do know that between the Fuehrer's Chancellery on the one hand and Chancellery of the Deputy of the Fuehrer, later called the Party Chancellery, there were disputes. They lay close together geographically speaking. Only one street lay between them in Munich. I went with such matters to the Party Chancellery, particularly since Dr. Bormann, who was a deputy, permitted such things.

Q: If I understood you correctly, you said this morning, that you do not know what the Party Chancellery did with these complaints?

A: That is true.

Q: Then consequently, you cannot say that there was no reaction at all to these complaints?

A: That I cannot say, but so far as we knew, there was no reaction.

Q: Did you learn from another conversation that certain church circles sent complaints to the Chancellery of the Fuehrer or to any other agency, the Reich Ministry of the Interior, for example?

A: No. I knew nothing of that.

Q: Then, Mr. President, if I may, I shall go back to the document of 1 September 1939, NO 630. I should like to show this document to the witness.

MR. HARDY: Might I ask defense counsel what his intention is in giving this decree to the witness? Is it his intention to ask this witness, a question, as a expert or a lawyer, as to what effect this decree or letter of the Fuehrer had?

THE PRESIDENT: What is counsel's purpose in examining the witness on the stand in connection with this document?

DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I merely wanted to ask the witness one question, whether the decree of the Fuehrer leads to the conclusion that there was a program.

MR. HARDY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

Q: Witness, have you read the decree?

A: I just read it, yes.

Q: Can the conclusion be drawn from this decree that there was a program of Euthanasia?

A: No. I do not believe that inference can be drawn. It is not to be seen from this document alone. In addition to this, there might have been additional orders because it says here the authority of certain physicians is to be enlarged.

Q: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other examination of this witness by defense counsel?

(no response)

If not, the Prosecution may cross-examine the witness.

CROSS — EXAMINATION

Q: Witness, during the course of this examination I may well delve into the subject of Euthanasia as a program. I am sure that I, as well as my distinguished colleague, Dr. Sauter, considered it as such.

You referred this morning on direct examination that Hitler issued an order appointing Blome as Deputy to Conti. When did he issue that order?

A: At the moment, I cannot tell you the precise day. At any rate, it was in April, 1939.

Q: Now, what was peculiar to the nature of the duties of Blome by this order?

A: I do not quite understand your question.

Q: What I am driving at, Witness, is did Hitler outline what the duties of Blome were in connection with the various positions held by Conti?

A: No.

Q: Well, now at that time —

A: Hitler did not know Blome personally so far as I know. He knew nothing very precisely about Blome's personality. If in this decree, Blome is suggested, then this suggestion came from Reichsleiter Bormann who was greatly interested in Dr. Blome. He knew him well.

Q: I assume you recollect you stated this morning that Hitler ordered Blome to become the Deputy of Conti. Now I put to you this question. Did not Blome have some sort of position of influence with Hitler or how did Hitler happen to appoint him by decree to be a deputy to Conti?

A: That came about through the fact that Reichsleiter Bormann was very closely connected with the late Reich Physician Wagner. Dr. Wagner, the evening before his death, left a letter to Hitler in which he did not name any specific successors to himself, but he mentioned in his letter, five or six loading personalities in the world of medicine whose names might be mentioned as successors. From these four or six persons who were here mentioned, Reichsleiter Bormann chose Dr. Bolme. He knew all the people mentioned very well. He decided in favor of Dr. Blome. Bormann then told Hitler what his opinion was in this matter.

Q: What gave Hitler or Bormann reason to believe that Blome could be faithful to the principles of the Reich Physicians' Leader Wagner and to the NSDAP?

A: Blome and the late Reichs Physician Leader had not only official connections with one another, but were friends. Blome knew precisely what Wagner's goals and wishes were with regard to the future of German doctors. Dr. Wagner's last and greatest task was to be as he told me, to restore the honor of German physicians, and to remove the right of lay healers to practice; that is to say, in the future only medical trained doctors were to treat patients. Blome completed this work of Dr. Wagner's; he alone is to be thanked for the fact that lay practitioners were refused to practice, because Blome successfully concluded the last negotiations on this subject.

Q: What was Blome's relationship to Bormann?

A: So far as I can judge, I believe that they came to know one another in the course of their work.

Q: Bormann was a Nazi, wasn't he?

A: Yes, certainly.

Q: So was Blome?

A: He was also a party member.

Q: Blome wore the golden party badge, didn't he?

A: Yes, but Blome did not eear that golden party badge as of the year 1923, which is worn by party members from 1 to 100,000. But, Blome was one of those party members who received the golden honorary badge in 1942 or 1943 along with other personages in the public life, who, although they were not members of the party, received membership as honorary members.

Q: Now, Doctor, as I understand it, Conti's position was one in which he had three duties: This was, as Reichsarztfuehrer, Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer, and Secretary of State for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior; is that right?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: Blome was his deputy only insofar as Conti was the Reichsarztefuehrer and Reichsgesunsheitsfuehrer?

A: That is right.

Q: Now, how and in what respect did the Ministry of Interior supervise the duties of the Reichsarzrefuehrer or Reichsgesunsheitsfuehrer?

A: The Reich Ministry of Interior had the functions of the police Ministry. It was to implement laws in every sphere and so far as this matter is concerned, to implement laws for health security in contrast to the States job in matters of health, which was called the securing of health. The party leadership of the NSDAP saw its task in the realm of health as the leader of human beings in the matter of health. Now in the differentiation, State vs. Reich Ministry of Interior, this differentiation determines also the respective spheres of competency. The Reich Ministry of Interior was superior in this respect to all professional societies that had anything to do with health, not only German doctors but also the professional societies of druggists, dentist, and so on down to nurses; to that extent the Reich Ministry of Interior, dentist, and so on down to nurses; to that extent the Reich Ministry of Interior was the supervisory agency over the professional organizations.

Q: Now, you state that the Office of Reichgesundheitsfuehrer or Reich Health Leader concerned themselves with health laws; is that right?

A: No, that I did not say. The job of Reich Health Fuehrer, the Reichs Physician Leader, were of a purely professional nature, and differed from the Reich Health Leaders tasks only in the fact that Dr. Conti was elevated to the party to supervision over health matters every where; thus the latter included the leadership over dentists, doctors, nurses and everything, but legislation regarding these persons was not include in this. The right of legislation was invested in the Reich Ministry of Interior.

Q: Well, now, when Wagner was alive did he also hold the position as Secretary of State in the Reich Ministry of Interior?

A: No, When Dr. Wagner was still alive he was only Reich Physician Leader, and in his party functions he was called the deputy of the deputy of the Fuehrer in all matters of public health. In other words, at that time, there was no Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer, Reich Health Leader, but Dr. Wagner as Reich Physician Leader was the advisor in matters of health of party leadership, particularly of the Reichsminister Hess, and in a lesser sense also of the Fuehrer, namely, Hitler.

Q: Conti was the successor to Wagner as Reichsarztefuehrer, is that right?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: There was no connection between that task and the one of the Ministry of Interior?

A: There was no connection between the two; there was a connection only to the extent that the Reich Minister of the Interior had to agree if a new professional leader of any sort including the Reichs Physician Leader was appointed, for example, if a Druggest Leader or Dentist Leader were deposed and a new was to be chosen, then the Reich Minister of the Interior and the Party Chancellery had to give their approval of a new election. This, in the case of the Physician Leadership was not the case because of the rank of the profession of physician and was elected direct by Hitler. The leader was appointed and after he was appointed the Ministry of Interior had only supervisory powers.

Q: Now, you stated here in direct examination to Dr. Sauter, that Wagner — as a matter of fact you stated, was able to succeed in governing and controlling of laws against hereditary diseases. Well, now, it must follow that his successor, Conti, as Reichsarztefuehrer, would have had the same capacity regarding Euthanasia, wouldn't it?

A: The question is not correct in this sense. Dr. Wagner as Reichsarztefuehrer did not have the possibility of implementing or carrying out the laws on hereditary diseases. He supervised only the State medical officers all the way down to the local medical officials. I did not say that he carried out that law this morning. I did say that Dr. Wagner, from the numerous complaints that came from the population, collected the most important points of view that spoke in favor of not carrying out the law too stringently, and that after a lecture, to Hess and Hitler, he took plenipotentiary powers which permitted him to investigate the borderline cases.

Q: Well, then it is true that Wagner succeeded in governing and controlling to some extent the execution of the laws against hereditary diseases, was it not?

A: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take a recess.