1947-03-12, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HEBERT KOSMEHL - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Now, witness, what do you understand that Euthanasia included?
A: I was not closely connected with this problem. I only dealt with it privately. I read a book about it in which the author spoke in favor of Euthanasia; and in the result I agreed with him. If someone is incurably ill, and is a constant burden to his relatives and to the population as a whole, then I personally would consider it right, in individual cases which have been carefully investigated, for the suffering to be ended.
Q: Now, witness, I have asked you what did you understand Euthanasia in Germany to include? You have given me the theory of Euthanasia as you understand it, but did you understand that this Euthanasia went beyond that of persons incurably ill and subjected other persons to extermination?
A: I cannot judge that. I did not deal with this question even once.
Q: Well, now these complaints that you mentioned regarding the Euthanasia problem. Did you see those complaints yourself?
A: Yes, I saw them.
Q: When?
A: In the course of the time, 1941 or 1942, perhaps.
Q: Where did you see those? Was that in your office which was part of the Reichsarztfuehrer's office?
A: This office was not separated, whether it was the office of the Reichsarztsfuehrer or the main office. The Reichsarztsfuehrer and head of the Public Health were the same person and, consequently, all the mail was received together. Only the address indicated which office was meant.
Q: What was the nature of these complaints?
A: I have already stated that doubts were expressed as to the accuracy of a report received by the relatives, according to which the patients had died a natural death.
Q: Well, now these reports as I understand it were shown to Blome, weren't they?
A: I do not know at the moment, but I assume that I showed them to Blome.
Q: Did you have any discussion with Blome about them?
A: I assume so.
Q: What did he do about it?
A: He had no idea about this any more than I did. He no doubt recommended that these complaints should be turned over to the Party authorities.
Q: Well, now was it normal that Blome should ignore such complaints as this — of a nature that people were getting killed?
A: It was not expressed positively enough, so that one could actually assume from them complaints that people were being killed. On the other hand, as I said this morning, there were a great many letters devoid of a motive which were due to some inference from the radio or from propaganda, but since neither the Reichs Chamber of Physicians nor the Main Office for Public Health had ever dealt with such things — I expressly mentioned this morning the case when the first Reichsaerztefuehrer Dr. Wagner specifically prohibited the discussion of this question — we turned these complaints over to the party which, through the Gau or Kolis Offices could inquire locally an investigate. That was the customary procedure.
Q: Now, these various positions Blome held as Deputy — they were concerned with health in Germany — health natters. That was his specific concern, wasn't it?
A: Yes.
Q: Doesn't it seem logical that he would be concerned with such a thing as euthanasia?
A: He knew as well as I did, that this problem specifically was not to be discussed; and was not to be dealt with, and I assume that here the position of the church played a very important role; and Blome was no doubt just as careful as I was, as a lay man, and did not take any part in this problem. Besides, Blome was only in Munich at certain intervals of about four weeks so that it is quite possible that I did not talk to Blome at all about these individual complaints.
Q: Well, now, you have stated that Dr. Wagner was able to influence and control the execution of laws against hereditary diseases, and that he did such in the position of Reichsaerztefuehrer. It also follows that Conti as Reichsaerztefuehrer, and Blome, as his deputy, could have interfered in such a matter as this and would have been equally as successful as Wagner had been.
A: I did not say that Dr. Wagner in his capacity as Reichsaerztefuehrer could influence the sterilization law. Dr. Wagner was quite an extraordinary person and an authority who in every respect, in contrast to his successor, Dr. Conti, was recognized everywhere.
Dr. Wagner, in contrast to Dr. Conti, had the opportunity of seeing Hitler at any tine he wished and to express any wishes he had to Hitler personally and he was listened to. Conti, on the other hand, as his successor, during his five years as Reich Health Leader and Reich Physicians' Leader, with the exception of his appointment, was not able to speak to Hitler for ten minutes on health matters even during the war. Therefore, if it was not possible for Conti, who had taken over the full authority of Dr. Wagner's office — if it was not possible for him to see Hitler, although he knew him personally, then it was impossible for Blome to see the Fuehrer, Hitler, personally since they did not know each other at all. The person of Reichsleiter Bormann was always in the way, who decided whether some one was to be admitted for a personal report or not. Generally, he prevented this, and reported himself what he considered right.
Q: Now, you state then, that Wagner did not govern and control the execution of the laws against hereditary diseases in his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer, but merely, because of the fact that Wagner, being a humane person and being of strong character, brought his influence and reputation to bear in that respect. Is that right?
A: Not exactly. As I said, Wagner was also he adviser for all health matters of the Party, and, in this capacity, he obtained a hearing when there was a question of undesirable conditions in this question — in the execution of the sterilization law which he wanted done away with.
Q: I won't argue anymore about the position of the Reichsaerztefuehrer, but it was my understanding and still is my understanding that Conti's position was that of advisor to the Party in health matters. Isn't that right?
A: Yes, but no use was made of it.
Q: Of course, it is true that Conti acted favorably toward the euthanasia program, isn't it?
A: I have learned that only here in Nurnberg.
Q: And it is suggested from our interrogation that Blome lacked the character and strength to object to such a program if he had such feelings. Is that right?
A: I assume that Blome was just as little informed about this problem as I was, and could not do anything about the problem. In any case, I know that in the course of the time while I was in Munich no other medical referents in these agencies mentioned these things.
Q: Then, do you submit to me, witness, that Conti, in his triple capacity — that is, Secretary of State, Reichsaerztefuehrer, and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer — that whenever he was engaged in any shady activities, that those activities only arose but of his position as Secretary of State in the Reichs Ministry of Interior and not in his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. Is that it?
A: That is my opinion, but beyond that, Conti was a personal confidant of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, who was his direct superior as Reichs Minister of Interior, and there were many things which did not have anything to do with the Reichs Chamber of Physicians.
Q: Well, I do not suppose you were sufficiently well informed in your position in that office, being an attorney and not a doctor, to know that Blome also had a friendly relationship with Himmler? You didn't knew that, did you?
A: No, I knew only the contrary. I know only that the relationship between Blome and Himmler, at least until 1942 or 1943, at least the whole first time, was very poor. Once I heard that in conversation with Dr. Wagner. I do not know the exact reasons.
Q: Well, now, to go into the character of Dr. Conti, or a moment. From what I gather, Conti was a poor unfortunate fellow, disliked by everybody. Brandt didn't like him. Blome didn't like him. I presume that Handloser didn't care for him. What was he doing there?
A: The German doctors wondered about that too. Everywhere in medical circles Conti was extremely unpopular. He had a very small group of intimate friends in Berlin, but even they fell away from him, one by one, so that, at the end, aside from Kaufmann, who has been mentioned, and a few others, he had not friends.
Q: It is unfortunate that Dr. Conti is unable to defend himself. Now, did Blome have any connection with racial problems? Did he do anything in that regard in his capacity as Deputy Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Well, for instance, suppose a person was a half-Jew and it was desirable that person or his ability be utilized for the benefit of the Reich. Was Blome in a position to declare that person a full-blooded Christian or whatever it may be that might make it necessary for him to be regarded as a good subject?
A: It is possible, if he had such an assignment. Whether he could decide such a thing himself I cannot say.
Q: Well, what gave him that authority? What was the border of his duty that gave him that authority?
A: Not, his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer, nor as Deputy Head of the Main Office for Public Health. That was a special assignment in addition to these offices.
Q: Well then, do you know that Blome was concerned with some of these racial problems?
A: He no doubt discussed such things in individual cases and worked on them, but whether he was empowered to decide, I do not know. I myself once submitted a case to him. During the war in France I had a comrade whom I met in the field; after we had gone through a few battles together he entrusted himself not to the company commander but to me, personally, because he was one of the ten people whom I had as combat squad commander. He told me that he was a half-Jew, that he had arranged for quarters and that he wanted to get married, but the Nurnberg laws made it impossible for him, since the marriage was forbidden. I promised this comrade at that time that I would take care of this matter, since I was always able to observe him personally and knew that he was a good comrade and a brave soldier. When I came back from the front I took up the matter, and shortly afterwards this man came back too. He had been released from the army after the campaign in France. He visited me at my office, and he told me about his case again. I received him immediately, and I discussed the details with him. I had learned that in those cases when a person had distinguished himself in the war or had been promoted because of bravery, an exception could be made in the rule against marriages. Since this man had been promoted because of bravery I considered the case suitable for me to take his part. It happened that Dr. Blome was in Munich on that same day, having come from Berlin. I took my comrade to Dr. Blome, and I told him of the case. He immediately declared himself willing to do something to further the approval to marry. I lost sight of the case then, because it was settled in a different way.
Q: Well, then, it is true that Blome could engage in extremely important activities outside of the scope of his job as deputy to Conti, isn't it?
A: Yes, that is true, and I know that Blome had an assignment in addition to the Chamber of Physicians and the Office for Public Health; for example in the field of cancer research.
Q: Now, witness, you stated this morning that these restrictions on Jewish doctors originated with some other governmental office. You don't recall, offhand, what other governmental office they originated in, do you?
A: I said this morning that these restrictions where a Reich measure, that the Reich government had taken them, and I also said that within the medical profession the Deputy Chief of the Government Insurance Society of Germany carried out these regulations.
Q: Well, now, the Reichsaerztefuehrer's office, as I understand it, executed or carried out these restrictions on the Jewish doctors, didn't they, — the Reichs Physicians' Chamber? Yes or No.?
A: No. It was not the Reich Chamber of Physicians. It was the Kassenärztliche Vereinigung. It was a part of the Reich Chamber of Physicians which was a separate legal entity. It was not situated in Munich with the Reich Chamber of Physicians but in Berlin.
Q: Well, who was the Chief of the Reich Chamber of Physicians?
A: That was the Reichsaerztefuehere.
Q: Conti?
A: Conti at that time, yes.
Q: Who was Conti's deputy?
A: In the Reich Chamber of Physicians, Dr. Blome. In the Insurance Society, Dr. Grothe.
Q: That is sufficient. Now you stated that Dr. Blome was somewhat of an expert in the cancer field, is that right?
A: I could not say from my own knowledge that he was an expert. I know that he had an assignment to coordinate cancer research and tumor diseases.
Q: And you are aware of the assignment he received from Goering and the Reich Research Council pertaining to the research on biological warfare, aren't you?
A: No.
Q: You know nothing of Blome's Institute at Posen?
A: Near Posen. I heard about it. That was when Blome was living in Munich, and decided to give up his offices in the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the Main Office for Public Health because of his poor relationship with Conti.
He moved from Munich to Posen with his family. He told his friends and co-workers that he wanted to devote himself exclusively to the fight against cancer, that he had an assignment to do so from a very high authority. Whether he said from Hitler or from Goering, I do not remember. In any case he had all the facilities near Posen, at a farm, to carry out his research in this field. I never heard any more about it. That Blome is supposed to have had any part in biological warfare, I and a few co-workers learned that in the internment camp in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in the fall of 1946 for the first time, over the radio, when Generalstabsarzt Dr. Schreiber testified to that effect here in the IMT trial in Nurnberg.
Q: Of course Blome would never have had any occasion to discuss the secret projects assigned to him with you, would he?
A: I do not believe so, no.
Q: Now you state that Blome moved to Munich from Berlin in 1942 or 1943 because of his quarrels with Conti, is that right?
A: No, that was earlier. That was 1941-42, and he left Munich at the end of 1942, as I recall.
Q: Well, now, Doctor, you are a lawyer, aren't you?
A: Yes.
Q: And on these medical problems of a secret nature—suppose that they were discussing euthanasia, Blome and Conti—they wouldn't invite you into any conferences, would they?
A: No.
Q: And it is highly possible that Blome could have been engaged in a great many activities of a medical nature of which you would not have any knowledge, is that right?
A: I did not learn of everything, I believe there were many things that I did not know about. Unless he told me in private conversations with other specialists, I was not able to judge.
Q: You are aware of the Fuehrer's order of secrecy, aren't you?
A: Yes, I know that.
Q: Most of these matters that are under discussion here were secret in nature. Blome would never discuss then with you, would he, insofar as taking into consideration the Fuehrer's order of secrecy?
A: Yes, I agree with you.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this witness by any defense counsel?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the Defendant Blome):
Q: Witness, I have a few brief question to clarify a few points. The prosecutor said that Blome had very good connections with Himmler. At the moment I do not know — have you already said when Blome came to Himmler for the first time — do you know that?
A: I said a while ago that I knew only of the poorer relationship between Himmler and Blome, and I know that Blome was with Himmler very seldom; I said this condition existed until 1942. It is possible that the relationship was improved later. Dr. Blome told me, for instance, that he had better relationships with the SS now.
Q: But you do not know when he came to Himmler the first time?
A: No, I do not know the time and I do not know the occasion.
Q: Did you hear anything about Blome's coming to Himmler?
A: Personally I did not know it.
Q: Do you know anything else about it? Do you know whether it is correct that Blome was repeatedly asked to join the SS and that he refused to do so? Do you know anything about that?
A: I consider that quite possible and I know that in the course of the years, I do not know exactly when, that he was asked to join the SS. I know that.
Q: From Blome himself?
A: Yes, from Blome himself.
Q: And what reason did he give for not joining the SS?
A: I believe I can bring that in connection with my own person. I also was naturally frequently asked to join the SA or the SS, especially under the era of Conti, who was higher SS Obergruppenfuehrer, who would have liked to have me or Blome join the SS. I personally did not do so because I did not want to sell myself to Dr. Conti, and that also was probably the reason for Blome too.
Q: Would you know that Blome was approached and asked to join the SS and he refused?
A: For me in any case this was the decisive thing at the time and I assume it was the same for Blome. I did not belong to any formations and certainly not the SS, consequently Dr. Conti was very reserved toward me and very condescending. I might say I could express my opinion to him more openly than others could because I did not belong to the SS. The associates, even they held a high rank in the SS could not do anything against him, they had to stand at attention, or often they had to carry suitcases and perform other services. He just gave orders to these people, and Blome did not want that possibly and I certainly did not.
Q: Dr. Koshmel, the prosecution spoke of Conti's great influence and asked why Conti had this position and this influence if he was so hated everywhere?
A: I believe there is some confusion there. The prosecution spoke of the great influence in connection with Dr. Wagner, and then afterwards pitied that Dr. Conti was a pitiable person because he was unliked.
Q: But, didn't Dr. Conti remain in his office although he was hated everywhere?
A: Yes, that is a fact.
Q: And to what do you attribute that?
A: Dr. Conti had a very difficult position in respect to all party agencies; what Dr. Wagner had built up in five years Dr. Conti tore down again in five years because he was not able to make his ideas prevail. Everyone in the party leadership, who had a large organization, was against him; such as Dr. Ley, or the organizations the SA, the SS and all sorts of organizations such as the Organization Todt, which had their own health organizations and were independent of Conti and even worked against him.
That was not possible under Dr. Wagner, because Dr. Wagner had great authority and that was why Dr. Conti lost more and more influence. If he was able to hold on, even though he was close to collapse, the reasons were internal party reasons such as the personal attitude of the Reichsleiter Bohrmann. Bohrmann had combatted Conti for years, but later, to the surprise of all initiated persons, he supported Conti at the very moment when he was generally considered a dead man. That was at the time when Dr. Brandt received his assignment of coordination.
Q: Dr. Kosmehl, do you not believe that there is a certain significance for Dr. Conti in maintaining his position? First, that he was a very old party member, and secondly, that he had a high rank in the SS, that he was an SS Gruppenfuehrer, do you not believe that these two circumstances were decisive in Dr. Conti maintaining his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichs Health Leader?
A: Doubtless these two qualities, being as SS officer and having old party membership, helped him for a long time and supported him, but now, that I am able to see the whole development, I believe that there were a lot of decisive and more important reasons than the ones I have just mentioned.
Q: Now, something else, Doctor, the prosecution said that it might have been in the authority and power of Dr. Blome to have a half Jew made a full Aryan and a good citizen. Apparently there is reference to a matter Veicks which must still be dealt with, you apparently do not know about this?
A: I have heard the name mentioned by Dr. Blome when I was making a report to him in the new building we occupied at the end of the war after we were bombed out when I was in there reporting to Dr. Blome and Dr. Veicks arrived as a visitor. He asked me to go out because this visitor arrived. He told me only that he had to receive this man because he was carrying out a research assignment or something like that, and I believe he referred to Himmler in some way; and I know that this name was connected with some drug for stopping bleeding.
Q: Yes, that is polygal and I don't want to discuss it with you.
A: No, I know nothing more about it.
Q: In my concluding question, I would be interested in the following do you believe that the point of view of the prosecution is right that the Deputy Reichs Leader of Physicians, no matter in what function, had the right or the power to have a half Jew proclaimed a full Aryan, or who was competent for this?
A: I do not believe that that would ever have been possible as much higher personalities tried in vain to accomplish this. I know of only one case where the Reich Marshal managed it, but Hitler himself reserved the decision. I do not know who could have had any influence.
Q: Do you know that such matters were dealt with in the Reichssippenamt in Berlin?
A: That office had nothing to do with it in my opinion, but I cannot say for sure.
Q: The opinion was expressed a little earlier today that the former Reichsaerztefuehrer Dr. Wagner, in his capacity as Reichsaerztefuehrer, had the opportunity to supervise the law about hereditary diseases, or to change it or some such thing; now I should like to know the following: Do you know that the former Reichsaerztefuehrer Dr. Wagner in the press and at Reich Party rallies at Nurnberg repeatedly dealt in detail with such questions; that he became well known for this and that perhaps for that reason that people came to him with their complaints if they had complaints about the execution of the sterilization law?
A: Yes, that is quite true. I can remember that Dr. Wagner spoke publicly here in Nurnberg about it and also on other occasions of congresses of doctors. The name of Dr. Wagner was known far beyond medical circles, therefore, I consider it quite possible that people came to Dr. Wagner by virtue of his personality, without thinking of him specifically as Reichsaerztefuehrer, although it would be possible that the population did not know his competency exactly.
Q: And now my last question, Dr. Kosmehl. The question has been brought up as to what did Dr. Blome do if he heard that people were inquiring about Euthanasia questions at the Reichs Chamber of Physicians or at the Main Office for Public Health, and you said that you turned over such inquiries to the Party Chancellory; I should like to have you make it quite clear why you went to the Party Chancellory; that is the one which had formerly been under Hess as Deputy to the Fuehrer and after Hess went to England, it was under his successor Bohrmann?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you go to this Party Chancellory? Will you please explain that very clearly?
A: I think I answered this question when one of your colleagues asked me about it. He said that it was the Chancellory of the Fuehrer which was competent for such questions; but we in Munich, I said, for ten years, as long as I was there, had the practice of going to this Munich agency which was closer to us and with which we had better connections, especially because we were more or less known there personally, and we knew that in general things which we turned over to them were actually taken into consideration.
I specifically in the course of years when I worked there in Munich had several school friends there whom I could call up and prepare and know that they would deal with the matter. That was, perhaps, one important reason, but, on the other hand, as I said, Dr. Wagner had success there with the sterilization law, and I had to assume that they would deal with this matter too thoroughly.
Q: Did you not know, Doctor, that this so-called Party Chancellory, that is, the Chancellory of Hess and later Bormann, was declared competent for all complaints coming from the population about abuses within the Party or in the State?
A: Yes, I believe I said that myself this morning. That was a regulation which motivated us, and that is true. The Party Chancellory claimed for itself to be competent in all fields, whether it was a purely organizational matter or a professional matter or whether it was a State legal matter.
The Party Chancellory assumed the jurisdiction, and the Party Chancellory was organized in such a way that it went up to ideological questions, up to church questions, and had departments for such things.
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions by Defense Counsel?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions of this witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Who will be your next witness, Dr. Sauter?
DR SAUTER: The Defendant, Dr. Blome, himself.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of the lateness of the hour, we will not swear the Doctor tonight.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
MR. HARDY: Pardon me, Your Honor-
DR. KAUFMANN: Just a minute, Mr. President. Mr. President Dr. Kaufmann for Rudlof Brandt.
May I make an application that the Defendant, Rudolf Brandt, be excused tomorrow because he should like to prepare his case. He is the next defendant after Blome who will take the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Under the circumstances, the Defendant, Rudolf Brandt, is excused from attendance in court tomorrow to prepare his case which will follow.
DR. KAUFMANN: I thank you.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor —
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. HARDY: The Prosecution has considered the Blome case and are now at this time of the opinion that a prima facie case exists against the Defendant Blome as charged in the indictment. Hence, we do not wish to withdraw any of the charges against the Defendant at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)