1947-03-17, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
KURT BLOME — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q: Witness, I have only one brief final question on the subject which we have just been discussing. You said that these two entries for Rascher and Hirth were put on your card index by accident. For this reason I would be interested in knowing was the Reich Research Council an old agency with trained reliable personnel, or was it a new institution which was created only during the War which had a great scarcity of personnel and which frequently had to work with personnel which was not experienced and was changed a great deal during the War? What can you tell us on this point, but please be brief.
A: In 1942 a new Reich Research Council was created by law. The tasks of this Reich Research Council were much more extensive than those of the old Reich Research Council. This reorganization was primarily carried out in 1943. With the many additional tasks, the need for personnel, of course, became greater. On the other hand, the old experts, the male personnel, that is, were drafted into the army. The gaps had to be filled up, but there was no trained personnel available.
In many cases only people were available who could work half a day, for example, women who had families who had formerly been secretaries and who were now called upon to work half days under the total war effort. I estimate that the total personnel was about one hundred people. In addition, the business of the Reich Research Council was interfered with by the fact that the building was hit at least twice in air raids, partly destroyed, and this, of course, brought considerable disorder.
Q: Now I come to another point, witness. The witness, Olga Eyer, in the session of the 15th of January here stated that the Reich Research Council had given her chief, Professor Haagon in Strassbourg, assignments for typhus or yellow fever research. Did you have anything to do with these assignments which Professor Haagon was given by the Reich Research Council?
A: No, I had nothing to do with them. Such assignments were in the sphere of work of Professor Schreiber.
He was in charge of epidemic research.
Q: Did you have any contact with professor Haagen in Strassbourg about this assignment for typhus or yellow fever experiments, or did you have any contact with Professor Hirth in Strassbourg on the assignment concerning chemical warfare agents? Did you have any oral conversation with them? Did you give them any instructions? Did you get any information from them?
A: I did not know either Professor Hirth personally. I did not have anything to do with them officially either.
Q: Did you from this Professor Hirth, for example, who doubtless had a research assignments for chemical warfare agents, get regular reports which he made out about the work done on his assignment?
A: No. I did not receive any reports either from Professor Haagen or from Professor Hirth. In my opinion, such reports could have been sent only to Professor Schreiber.
Q: Professor Schreiber who has been mentioned here repeatedly?
A: Yes, that is the man.
Q: Professor, Blome, your name has been mentioned in connection with malaria experiments, too. Did you have anything to do with them?
A: No.
Q: When did you first hear of such experiments?
A: I heard of these experiments for the first time when I was a prisoner in the prison information at Oberursel.
Q: When was that for the first time?
A: That was about the end of '45 or the beginning of '46.
Q: But you were in Dachau several time, weren't you, when you were Deputy Reich Physicians Leader? In these visits at Dachau, or as Deputy of the Reich Physicians Leader, Conti, did you never hear anything about these experiments?
A: No, I did not hear anything about them. I don't know Professor Schilling. I never saw this institute or station of professor Schilling's. I never received any reports not even indirectly through Dr. Conti.
Q: As Deputy Reich Physician Leader, or in any other capacity, did you have anything to do directly with the SS officers, especially in the concentration camps, or did you have anything to do with the Health Service of the Concentration camps?
A: No.
Q: Nothing at all?
A: No, nothing at all. For the SS doctors in concentration camps, for the doctors of the Waffen SS, for all the doctors of the Wehrmacht, and for all the official government doctors, the Reich Chamber of Physicians was not the supervisory authority. They were not under the disciplinary authority of the Reich Chamber of Physicians and they were not under any authority.
Q: Now, Dr. Blome, I should like to show you something which your co-defendant, Rudolf Brandt asserted at one time, on the 24th of October 1946, he made two affidavits. One of them has the exhibit number 329, document 444. This affidavit deals with the experiments in the concentration camps. In this affidavit, the co-defendant, Karl Brandt, mentions various persons who he says knew all about these experiments. This is Rudolf Brandt. He mentions Karl Brandt, Grawitz, Gebhardt, Mrugowsky, Poppendick and Sievers, and finally says, and this is the point I am showing to you:
Kurt Blome in his capacity as Deputy of Conti must have been informed, just as well as the latter himself.
What do you have to say about this statement of your co-defendant, Rudolf Brandt?
A: This statement has no basis in fact. Therefore, I ask you to examine the defendant, Rudolf Brandt, how he came to make such a statement.
Q: Then how do you explain the fact that Rudolf Brandt makes such a statement?
A: One could find various explanations.
Q: You know nothing definite?
A: No.
Q: Then we will ask him himself afterwards. Now I go on to another subject in connection with which your name has also been mentioned, "lost gas."
Did you have any part in the lost gas experiments, for example, as they were carried out in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen and Natzweiler?
A: No.
Q: When did you hear for the first time of these experiments?
A: Here in Nurnberg.
Q: Here in Nurnberg?
A: Yes.
Q: And how do you explain the fact that in spite of your various positions you did not hear about these earlier, that is, before 1945?
A: That had nothing to do with my work either in The Reich Chamber of Physicians or in the office of Public Health or in the Reich Research Council.
Q: Then it was completely outside of your competence?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever visit this concentration camp Sachsenhausen or Natzweiller where "lost gas" experiments were carried out? Did you ever talk to the doctors there about such matters?
A: No, I did not visit these concentration camps, consequently I din not talk to the doctors there. I know only the concentration camp Dachau. I was there two or three times, certainly twice I visited Dr. Rascher and a third time before the war I was with the late Reich Physician Leader Wagner to inspect the concentration camp Dachau. I know no other, concentration camp.
Q: Professor Blome, a while ago I showed you an affidavit of Rudolf Brandt where he charges you with the malaria experiments. Now I have here another affidavit of this Rudolf Brandt. In document book 13 of the Prosecution, page 1, No. 372, Prosecution Exhibit 252, here Rudolf Brandt says at the end, similar to the other affidavit:
Professor Dr. Kurt Blome, also, Deputy Reich Health Leader, and Deputy Reich Physicians Leader was certainly
— he says "certainly" —
informed about these experiments.
That was what Rudolf Brandt says: What do you have to say about that?
A: This is also an unfounded statement, just as well as the one about malaria.
Q: Did you have any part in the sulfonamide experiments?
A: No.
Q: Were you ever in a concentration camp Ravensbruck where they were carried out?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to the defendants specifically responsible for this about it?
A: No.
Q: Did you discuss it with other doctors who worked in that camp?
A: No.
Q: Professor Blome were you at a meeting, a conference of consulting physicians at which these sulfonamide experiments were reported on?
A: I did not participate in such a meeting.
Q: No such meeting?
A: No, not any of my associates.
Q: Not this Dr. Gross whom we talked about a few days ago?
A: No, not Dr. Gross either. I have already pointed out that this was an error on the part of the Prosecution apparently.
Q: Now I come to typhus vaccines, Dr. Blome. In a session of 18 February a Prosecution document, 1323, a letter of Dr. Handloser to the Reich Health Leader, Dr. Conti. In this letter, Dr. Handloser referred to the increasing need for typhus vaccine and suggested that the production of typhus vaccine should be put in the hands of the pharmaceutical industry. Did you, as Deputy Reich Physician Leader, learn of this letter?
A: No, I did not know about it, and this letter was probably not sent to the Reich Physicians Leader, Dr. Conti, but to the State Secretary in the Ministry of the Interior, and I was not a deputy in that capacity.
Q: Then that referred only to the competency of Dr. Conti as State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior for the State Health System?
A: Yes.
Q: In the same session, 18 February, another document was submitted No. 1315, Exhibit 454, a file note of the 4 January, 1942, which again deals with the production of typhus vaccine. The heading is: Reich Ministry of the Interior and Ministerialrat [Ministerial Councilman], Dr. Bieber, is mentioned. Did this Dr. Bieber have anything to do with your office? Was he under your authority? Did he report to you?
A: No. Ministerialrat Professor Bieber had nothing to do with the Reich Chamber of Physicians or with the office of public health. He was ministerialrat in the ministry of the Interior. He was under Dr. Conti there. He was in charge of the department for epidemic control. He was an expert in Hygiene and Bacteriology.
Q: Now, witness, I come to a different problem. That is, the suggestion made that time that the Poles should be liquidated, that is, the Poles suffering from incurable contagious tuberculosis. A Document Book was submitted on that subject. Concerning your participation in the plan for the extermination of tuberculous Poles you were examined in January 1946 at Oberursel, and on 9 and 22 October 1946 here in the Prison. Were the statements you made at that time true?
A: Yes. But, I must add that concerning this business about the tuberculous Poles, as far as I recall, I said it was in 1943, while in reality, as the files now show, it took place in 1942. I must also say that my letter to Greiser in November 1942 has been shown to me here. I was asked whether this was my letter, whether I had written this letter. I said "No". I said this because it was not a photostatic copy, but a photostatic copy of a copy. I objected to several things in the letter and did not acknowledge it at that time. They were external matters which occasioned me to make that statement. Later, however, in December, when you took over my case, you gave me this photostatic copy, and I had an opportunity to study it carefully and reconstruct conditions which had existed at the time and, therefore, I now acknowledge this letter as authentic.
Q: Is it true, Dr. Blome, that the Prosecution learned for the first time of this plan to exterminate the Poles through you? Dr. Blome, what can you say about that?
A: Yes. The Prosecution learned from me for the first time of this plan. In 1942 I told my interrogator, Captain Urbach at Oberursel, after he had described the details of the atrocities which I had not known about up to that time.
Q: You just said 1942.
A: I meant 1945. I meant December 1945. I beg your pardon. I do not believe that the Prosecution had any knowledge of this, at least not at Oberursel.
Q: Dr. Blome, this whole matter begins with a letter of the Reich Governor Greiser of the first of May 1942 which is in Document Book 9, page 1. It is Document 246, exhibit 196. Tell us briefly who was Greiser.
A: This was Arthur Greiser, Gauleiter [Regional or District Leader] of the Warthegau, the Reich Governor of the Wartheland, and the Reich Defense Commissioner of the Wartheland.
Q: This Gauleiter Greiser, who was a Gauleiter in a district which now belongs to Poland, on the first of May 1942 sent a letter to the Reich Fuehrer SS suggesting that Poles suffering from tuberculosis in the Wartheland should be liquidated if the existence of open tuberculosis and the incurability of the patients was established by official doctors. In this regard Greiser writes, and this is what I want to ask you about, I quote:
The increasing dangers were also recognized and appreciated by Deputy Reich Leader of Public Health, Dr. Blome, as well as by SS Foreigners Battalion SS Fremdensturmbann Leader SS, Dr. Hohlfelder.
That is the quotation. What can you tell us today about the apparently early discussion between you and Gauleiter Greiser?
A: I talked to Gauleiter Greiser about combating tuberculosis in Wartheland about three times, certainly once in the presence of Professor Hohlfelder. These discussions go back to the year 1941. I can recall that Greiser once said that the simplest thing would be to treat the incurable tuberculous Poles exactly like the insane persons by Euthanasia. I pointed out that the comparison was not valid. The Poles, I said also, were not German citizens. The plan which Greiser was considering was a radical solution but I could not agree to it. When sometime later I learned of the so-called Fuehrer order according to which the Euthanasia action was stopped and prohibited I considered this matter, respectively the statement of Greiser, settled. Then the year 1942 was filled with purely organizational preparation for the tuberculosis action. For example: All the population had to be collected in card index files, Germans as well as Poles; preparations had to be made for the medical and clinical care of the sick, preparations for x-ray examinations.
Then these examinations had to be evaluated, etc. The latter was a matter for the State Health offices, the NSV, that is the National Socialists Welfare organization and the X-Ray Battalion (Sturmbann) which was to carry out these examinations technically. From time to time I had a report from Professor Hohlfelder about the preparations. Only when all prerequisites were fulfilled, did I give my approval for such a big action. The execution of this action was dependent upon my personal approval. Only then did I take any action in this tuberculosis matter in the Warthegau — when I received alarming reports about the insensible liquidation order from Himmler. I learned of it because at the beginning of November Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] Perwitschky came to my office in Berlin and reported to me that Greiser had an order from Himmler that incurably sick cases of tuberculosis, found in the planned examinations in the Wartheland, were to be liquidated.
Perwitschky belonged to the X-Ray Battalion. He was business manager for the society combatting tuberculosis. Then I immediately reached an agreement with Perwitschky that I would meet Professor Hohlfelder at Posen to discuss the matter and to prevent Himmler's and Greiser's plans from being carried out. I went to Posen. I discussed the matter with Hohlfelder. We were both greatly astonished at this order from Himmler. We agreed that this order must not be carried out, and that we as German doctors could not lend our hand to such an action. We discussed the manner in which this Himmler-Greiser plan could be frustrated. We decided that I should go to Greiser first of all. I telephoned Greiser from this conference and said that it was very important that I should speak to him. Then I talked to him on the same day, or on the next day. When I asked Greiser whether Himmler's orders for liquidating were correct, he said "Yes." He said he had the order in his hands. I said that I was willing to prevent this plan in any case and I explained why. I said that as a doctor I could not participate in this and, in the second place, I pointed out the political danger connected with such a crime.
Then Greiser agreed that I was to write a letter for him which he would pass on to Himmler for a decision. As for Greiser's letter to Himmler of the 1st of May 1942, which you just mentioned, Dr. Sauter, I learned of it for the first time from the files here, and Himmler's opinion on my letter of November 1942 I learned of here for the first time too. Up to that time I did not know about Himmler's letter to Greiser. In the letter of the 1st of May 1942 from Greiser to Himmler Greiser writes — I quote:
that Hohlfelder and Blome recognized the ever-increasing risks and appreciated them.
But he doesn't write that Hohlfelder and I approved liquidation. The letter does not say that. My basic opinion on the problem is the following: Let us suppose that we, in Germany, had a valid law for the liquidation of incurably sick persons but, assuming that such a law did exist, then it would, of course, be out of the question to apply it to non-Germans. Application in this case would be a crime, especially during war. Germany had occupied foreign territory and, as occupying power, had to observe international law in the treatment given to the occupied to the occupied territories.
As for the problem of tuberculosis, I had dealt with it for some time, especially since 1935 when I had incorporated the tuberculosis question into the post-graduate medical training. In 1937 Professor Janker, Bonn, a well-known X-ray specialist, called upon me for aid in developing a new procedure which, with a minimum of cost, would make it possible to examine large groups of the population. This was the so-called. X-ray screen photography which was developed. I shall give you a brief explanation of this. For an X-ray picture of the lungs a film had been needed of 24 by 30 centimeters. This new procedure required only a film of about 4 by 4 centimeters. That is, the so-called Leica size. The pictures are taken with a Leica. The X-ray screen was photographed. The successful development of this procedure meant that in place of the price for an X-ray picture, which the Social Insurance had paid, of from twelve to thirteen marks, it now could be produced for about ten pfennigs: that is, less than 1 percent.
The further value of the development of this procedure was that one would not need several minutes for an X-ray picture, but that this procedure was developed to such an extent that we could take two hundred to three hundred pictures per minute. Together with Janker I developed this screen picture procedure until we came to the results which I have just described. At the X-ray Congress in 1938 in Munich in May I made this procedure public and I observed that with the aid of this procedure one could begin a large scale fight against tuberculosis. Only a few people believed my words at the time and some people smiled Pityingly. After this Congress Professor Hohlfelder, who was later commander of the X-ray battalion, came to me and, working together with X-ray science, optical industry, film industry, X-ray industry, screen industry, etc., we developed the procedure during the course of that same year to such an extent that in a short time we were able to X-ray the whole Province of Meclenburg. The procedure was then gradually developed so that we could easily have X-rayed ten million or more in Germany per year. Then, during the war, at my instigation in 1939 and 1940 we X-rayed the whole Province of Westfalia; then in 1941 the whole province of Wuerttemberg, including Hohenzollern, and now there was a plan to X-ray the Wartheland. Gauleiter Greiser had approached me because approval had to be obtained from me and I gave such approval only if all prerequisites were given so that the patients who were discovered could be given the necessary medical and clinical attention.
It had been our experience in these examinations that we found 1 percent new tuberculosis causes which had hitherto been completely unknown. For the Warthegau along, with a Polish population of four and one-half millions, that would have been forty-five thousand new cases of tuberculosis, not counting the ten thousand from the one million German population. I had reserved the approval for such actions because at that time, with the development of this invention, a plan of irresponsible X-raying was being carried out by various Gauleiters and by large industries. Everyone wanted to take up the battle against tuberculosis but that would have been a disaster unless there had been this block that, when whole groups of population were X-rayed, there had to be the necessary preparation of medical supplies from the beginning.
Otherwise, there would have been a catastrophe. Through this action and through many new cases of tuberculosis which were discovered, I knowingly put the state in a difficult situation. I forced the state to issue a new law for the fight against tuberculosis. This law which was issued was the Tuberculosis Aid Law. This law formed the basis for the lung examinations of the population of the Wartheland which was actually carried out in 1943-1944, and the advantages of this law, it can be proved, were not to the advantage only of the German population in the Warthegau, but also of the Polish population, as is clearly seen from the affidavit of Regierungsdirektor Dr. Guntermann. Dr. Guntermann was the Chief Medical Officer of the Wartheland; that is, he had the main responsibility for the fight against tuberculosis in this Gau.
Q: Dr. Blome, before we go into the letter of the 18th of November 1942, which is Document 250 in Document Book 9, I should like to go back to the time in the spring of 1942. We just heard of a letter from Gauleiter Greiser of the 1st of May 1942, where he suggests that Poles suffering from tuberculosis should be liquidated. Where he writes:
that the ever increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the Deputy of the Reichaerztefuehrer, Professor Dr. Blome.
So for the quotation — You said that Greiser does not mention that you approved the plan for the liquidation of the Poles. I would be interested in knowing what your attitude was at that time in the spring of 1942 toward this plan. Did you approve of the plan to liquidate tubercular Poles? Did you reject it? What did you say about it?
A: In the spring of 1942 I expressed no attitude in respect to this plan at all. The discussion with Greiser, as I said, went back to the year 1941, at the time when the euthanasia action was still in operation. In 1942 I did not talk to Greiser about such a plan at all. I had no knowledge that Greiser intended to write this letter in May 1942 to Himmler, or that he did write it. I learned of it only here. After Greiser made his statements in connection with euthanasia, but the euthanasia action had been stopped by Hitler's order, of course I assumed that such ideas on the part of Greiser were settled too. I did not approve of his ideas, as I said before.
Q: Then, if I understand you correctly, you did not deal with this matter in the fall of 1942 when this Prawitzchky brought you alarming news?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Can you tell us why Gauleiter Greiser discussed this tuberculosis problem specially with you?
A: The reason was, as I have already said, that the execution of such an action depended on my approval. If I said the Warthegau will not be X-rayed, it was not X-rayed, even if the Gauleiter stood on his head.
Q: Dr. Blome, Gauleiter Greiser was not thinking of X-raying apparently but of liquidating. The letter of 1 May 1942, where he makes the suggestion speaks only of liquidation. It says nothing about X-raying. I would like to find out how you got into this matter — when you heard of Greiser's plan for the first time, this plan to eliminate the tubercular Poles?
A: Of course Gauleiter Greiser was thinking of X-raying; that is the pre-requisite for finding incurable cases of tuberculosis.
Q: Then, witness, on the 16th of November you wrote a letter, which is in Document Book 9, as Prosecution Document 250, Exhibit 203. This is the letter concerning which the Prosecution has said that it was a "masterpiece of murderous intention." Did you discuss this letter beforehand with the Reich Physician Leader, Dr. Conti?
A: No. After I had talked to Greiser I saw Conti briefly in Berlin or I went to see Conti and report to him about the plan and about my talk with Greiser.
Dr. Conti said — "What do you want? That's an order from the Reichsfuehrer, that is, Himmler." Then I said to Conti what I had agreed upon with Kreiser and that I would write a letter to that effect to be sent on to Himmler. Then he agreed to that and agreed to my writing this letter. But I did not discuss the contents with Mr. Conti. I did not see any point in doing so. This statement of Conti's showed that he knew about this plan of liquidation.
Q: Witness, this letter which you wrote to Gauleiter Greiser, where you opposed liquidation of the Poles — did you write this by yourself or did you discuss the formulation of this letter with anyone?
A: First I wrote the letter by myself. After I had come back to Berlin from Posen I had to go to Munich. After I came back from Munich I wrote this letter. I made various rough drafts. It was not easy. I had discussed the general tactics with Hohfelder that we would start right at the beginning of the letter by apparently agreeing to the ideas but then in the second part of the letter to list all political factors which might induce Himmler and the others to give up such an action. It was not easy to write such a letter. I worried about this letter a great deal until I thought I finally had a right draft.
In my preliminary interrogation an interrogator asked me something to this effect: "Why did you not simply give up your office and resign when you heard about this plan?" I must say the following: It would, of course, have been the simplest thing for me to take advantage of this opportunity to give up my position. Then I would have had nothing more to do with the whole matter, at least 40,000 Poles would have been murdered, and I would not be under indictment today for this point.
Please excuse me for saying this but I must say it when such a charge is made against me. I will try to speak as dispassionately as possible. Dr. Sauter had just said that the Prosecution considers my letter a "masterpiece of murderous intention." I now state the following. The Prosecution, in addition to this questionable affidavit of Rudolf Brandt, has not a single document to prove the murder of tubercular Poles by me. On the contrary, the Prosecution has submitted Himmler's answering letter of the end of November 1942, according to which, Himmler, in answer to my letter, prohibited the liquidation of the tubercular Poles and this letter expressly says that my suggestion was to be realized and that this matter was to be used in propaganda. Never-the-less, the Prosecution makes such charges in this form against me. I am accused of being a murderer 10,000 times for a crime which I did not commit but which I prevented, as I can prove. I should like to say something else. The press, of course, has taken up this charge. I can not hold that against the press. The consequence of this news, however was that my family, my wife and my little children, are subjected to unpleasant and even threats. Through this assertion of the Prosecution the name of Blome been defamed in such a way as it does not deserve, especially not if it can be proved that one prevented the crime with which one is charged.
MR. HARDY: If it please Your Honor, I object to any further comment of this type from the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Witness may continue.
A: I beg your pardon if I got rather excited. I should like to conclude statement by saying that I hope that this case will soon be cleared up and that then the press will be chivalrous enough to state that I not only did not commit this crime but that I actually prevented it.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I should like to discuss with the witness the letter of 18 November 1942 in which the defendant prevented the murder of the Poles. It will take some time. I believe this would be a good time to break.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, desires to announce to all concerned that the next few days, at least, the Tribunal will not take an afternoon recess at 3:30 o'clock will recess until 9:30 o'clock the next morning. The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)