AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 28 Mar 1947.)
JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY — Resumed
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION — Continued
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: Before the recess we were talking about the taking off of blood in the case of typhus and you were saying in that connection that a cleverly carried out taking off of blood would be rather beneficial than damaging in the case of typhoid. What do you consider a cleverly carried out operation of that type?
A: A human being has a total of about five liters of blood. It has been known for decades that damage to health through removal of blood, and particularly danger to life, would only take place if one liter or more is taken off; but even that limit is not a certainty. In the case of removed blood, therefore, from the vein one will stay well below that limit. The rule is not to tale more than five hundred cubic centimeter. From the entires in the so-called diary it becomes apparent that on the average 430 cubic centimeters were taken from the convalescent patients. Consequently, usual limits were observed so that danger for this removal of blood was out of the question from the beginning.
Q: These convalescent patients — were they previously examined before the convalescent scrum was taken away from them?
A: They were still under medical consideration in the hospital and the doctor in whose care they were get them ready for this removal of blood. This would not have been done if in any way there had been any reason on the strength of which the patient might have been in jeopardy, for instance, through anemia or anything like that.
Q: The persons from whom convalescent serum blood was removed — did they in any way receive compensation?
A: In Germany even in peacetime there has been an arrangement usually according to which, in the case of blood transfusions and some such operatic additional food rations could be allocated. This ruling, which was also applicable to the armed forces, was also brought into cooperation for concentration camp inmates and I know that a corresponding order was given through the chief of concentration camps through administrative channels.
I saw a copy of that order. The persons in question whose blood had been taken, therefore, had additional rations. Being more than 150 cubic centimeters of blood was removed, which is the lowest limit, such compensation in the shape of food could be given.
Q: You said that you considered that any damage to health was considered out of the question by you in the case of such removal of blood in the case of convalescent patients. Please remember that Dr. Kogon has testified that this removal of blood was at least part of the reasons for later fatalities.
A: This opinion of Dr. Kogon is incorrect. Nor does he speak on the strength of his own knowledge because he himself stated during his testimony that as far as the events in Block 46 were concerned he only knew them by hearsay; but he himself had no business there, so that he could not collect such experiences of his own. His assertion, therefore, is based on the statements by third persons and I would like to point out that Kogon himself also has said that persons who later on were to be infected with typhus had previously been put in a particularly favorable condition of nourishment by means of considerable additional food rations.
Q: Then there is another mention of the removal of blood when, through Dr. Ellenheck, in the so-called small camp and according to Kogon's testimony blood was removed and used for blood conserves. What is to be understood by that?
A: To begin with — with reference to conserving of blood during the numerous wounds which happened during a frontal war, blood transfusions became one of the most important means of treatment. In the case of numerous such instances there is additional condition of shock and it transpired that it is not a good thing in this condition to carry out transfusions of blood with blood corpuscles because through that circulation is additionally burdened. Therefore, one passed on to using serum only; despite all this at the front there are numerous cases when the transfusion of blood appears advisable and is carried out.
There is not always a sufficient number of blood donors available and from various sources, not only in Germany but also abroad, particularly in Switzerland, the problem was tackled of bringing blood into a shape in which it can be kept several weeks and in which it can be taken to the front where it can be given to wounded soldiers. In my institute we were working, on this problem on behalf of our divisions, and such blood conserves, which could be kept for four weeks, were manufactured by us on a larger scale, and they were used for our divisions at the front. This blood did not originate from concentration camps. To the contrary, Himmler had emphatically forbidden that for use among Waffen-SS members blood from concentration camps should be used.
We set up a special donor organization in Berlin through appealing to the population. Particularly women and girls reported in such large numbers, voluntarily that is, to give their blood for this purpose, that we had more than sufficient donors for our purposes. From the stocks of this conserved blood we also supplied large quantities to concentration camps but when, later on, transportation problems became more and more difficult because of the increasing air attacks, the demands of concentration camps could no longer be satisfied. Following a special proposal of the chief medical officer of concentration camps, the requirements of detainees were supplied from blood taken from healthy prisoners. Consequently, to this is due the entry in Ding Diary that in Buchenwald too healthy prisoners in the so-called "smaller camp", which was the description for billets and quarters, had blood taken away from them, and Kogon states quite clearly that these donors were reporting voluntarily in order to receive the additional food supplies.
Q: So that it is your opinion that this method of removing blood is perfectly justifiable?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you yourself ever give blood in that manner?
A: Yes, but not very often. Possibly twenty times.
Q: What was the quantity of blood that they took away from you?
A: Generally 500 cubic centimeters, rarely less, but a few times, 750 cubic centimeters.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection, I submit Document Mrugowsky #15. It is on page 133 of Mrugowsky's document book. #15 on page 133. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 38. It is affidavit from Professor Dr. Siebeck, Heidelb* Professor Siebeck, in connection with some of the questions which I put to him, only stated briefly that the question is — Page 133; Document 15, Exhibit 38. Professor Siebeck, in the case of individual questions which I put to him, only states in his affidavit that this question is to be answered in the affirmative and I have, therefore, taken the liberty on Page 136, immediately following this affidavit, to reprint the questions which I had put to Professor Siebeck and these questions can be found on page 136. Professor Siebeck says in his affidavit under figure 1 that:
Until about the beginning of this century typhus was considered to belong to the group of typhoid diseases, because the general symptoms of the disease show similarities. But since then it has been known that typhus has no connection with the typhoid diseases. This has been proved for certain especially since Nicolle discovered the germ.
Figure 2: "Typhus takes its course frequently, and it can be said, typically, with a head-ache without other troubles.
3. A serious phenomena of the disease such as delirium, disturbances of the circulatory system, appear at first mainly during the period of numbers but this can also appear much later, especially disturbances of the circular system.
With reference to question 4, I shall first of all have to read the question which is: "Is it correct that complications may arise in the course of this illness and that they chiefly occur in the case of a severe attack on typhus?" And the answer is: "This question is to be answered in the affirmative."
In question 5 I had asked: "Are some of these complications bronchial pneumonis, inflammation of the kidneys, hemorrhages in the skin, vomiting, etc?" and the answer: "The complications mentioned appear rather frequently in serious cases."
Figure 6: "Bonchial pneumonia, at least, is a frequent complication in cases of typhus, vomiting was not so often observed by us. The hemorrhages: the skin are mostly very slight in cases of uncomplicated typhus. Symptoms from the kidneys are frequent, but real and serious inflammation of the kidneys are frequent, but real and serious inflammation of the kidneys occurs seldom if ever. It depends on the symptoms, whether they can be traced back to the disease or to other influences."
Figure 7: "There is no specific therapy for typhus."
Figure 8: "It is correct that the therapy has first of all to support the circulatory system. I would use baths only with care. In the giving of medicines, measures called for by the symptoms to counteract the pains come into consideration. If it is opportune phlebotomy is recommended for all case of infection."
Figure 9: "The administering of Cardiazol and Sympatol mentioned seems appropriate to me. However, peroral administering is not sufficient in all cases. In serious cases an administering —"
Then I can skip this and pass on to:
Figure 10: "Among the anatomical changes which are traceable in cases of typhus, those in the blood vessels (perivascular infiltrates) play the most important part. The lowering of the blood pressure is apparently caused by a disturbance of the blood vessels of the brain. Only a few examinations about the quantity of blood in cases c typhus are available. I personally do not believe that the express 'a rupturing' (Bruechigwerdon) of the blood vessels is quite correct. If there are not quite special indications, I myself do not recommend phlebotomy in cases of typhus, but I cannot say that phlebotomy, if carried out carefully would be a mistake. The taking of 430 cubic centimeters of blood seems rather much to me, but I do not think that real or permanent damage can be caused thereby."
Figure 11: "Does such phlebotomy, if carried out correctly, have such a damaging effect on the whole body that the patient's condition will deteriorate instead of being improved?" And Dr. Siebeck draws your attention to his previous statement.
Figure 12: "It is at least quite improbable, if not impossible, for human who are in the convalescent stage after typhus to be harmed by a single blood letting of 430 cubic centimeters to such an extent that death does not occur until later in consequence of the loss of blood. Such a blood letting was made several times in order to use the serum of these patients in the treatment of now cases."
Figure 13: "Phlebotomy, if properly carried out, can be the direct cause of death only if it is made on an extremely *** weakened convalescent whose circulatory system is completely undermined."
Figure 14: "It is correct that in cases of typhus the serum of convalesence has been used frequently for therapeutic purposes, statements as to the results being contradictory."
Figure 15: "Exact dates about the regeneration of the blood cannot be established. A healthy body regenerates 150 to 200 cubic centimeters of blood within a few days without even fooling it.
In case of 400 cubic centimeters of blood it may take a week or a little longer. Undernourished bodies do not regenerate so well and take a longer time than healthy ones. If the food supply is to a certain extent sufficient, the blood is regenerated also without any special additional food rations."
THE WITNESS: Can I add briefly that these clinical statements have been made because Dr. Ding, in his acridin work, is referring to them under the separate headings, and the prosecution, during the submission of this document, had said that these complications in typhus cases are traceable to the introduce of acridin and rutenol. That is erroneous. These complications arc due to the disease as such, and Professor Siebeck, who has particularly great experience in this sphere, states that the complications which were mentioned happened very often in typhus cases and are, therefore, not due to the medical treatment which Ding applied.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: You have Ding's Diary before you. On the 21st of December, 1943, until the 16th of January, 1944, on the 23th of January to the 12th of February, 1944, and the 22nd of May, 1944, to the 16th of June, 1944, you find the entry in this diary to the effect "Control of blood serum"? What experiment is he talking, about in that connection?
A: That was not an experiment at all. It was a therapy. I already stated this morning that in several cases with shock and also disturbances through infection, one only reluctantly decides on a blood transfusion, preferring rather to use blood serum. During, this war, hundreds of thousands of soldier were treated with blood; serum conserves with the greatest success. Incidents of any type never happened, and it was my aim, therefore, on behalf of the infection department of hospitals to get hold of such scrum. I did not succeed in doing so, because the production of these blood serum conserves was through the military academy of the army, and our field units were supplied through armies and divisions. As far as rear units were concerned, such conserves were not at all available. It was only after a lengthy period that I nevertheless, succeeded in getting hold of such ampules, and for treatment of disturbances of the circulatory system I placed such ampules at Ding's disposal for his patients.
Q: In the military academy or any other office did they request to have this serum conserve tried out or to check regarding its effects?
A: No and there wasn't any cause whatever to do so. In hundred of thousands of cases reactions and effects to such conserves had been known, and publications to that effect were available. I do not think that there was a single forward dressing station at any front of this last war where this conserve was not used at one time or other.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I submit to you Document Mrogowsky Number 16. It is on Page 140 of Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky Number 13, Page 140. I offer it as Document Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 39. It is an affidavit from one Konrad Lang who produced this blood serum conserve.
Following the customary preamble he first of all describes how these conserves were manufactured. Then on Page 140 of the German version he says:
All serum preserves would show after a few weeks or months a slight darkening, which was the normal occurrence of pus and caused through fixing corpuscles. During long transports, particularly by car, this process and formation of this film was accelerated. Ampules which dressing stations had held for a lengthy period showed clearly discoloring. Numerous reports by the Institute were received, showing that the usability was no worse than in the case of clear ampules.
We, nevertheless, introduced the precautionary measure that in the case of the infusion of strongly discolored ampules a gauze filter should be introduced and that the infusion should take place as slowly as possible. These filters could be got from the main hospitals, a measure which was, however, rarely used in the field.
Prof. Dr. Mrugowsky was specially interested in the manufacture of serum preserves and discussed the matter several times with myself as well as the director of the serum laboratory at Berlin, Oberstabsarzt Dr. Kreiselmaier. I am certain that on these occasions the question of clouded ampules and its insignificance with regard to their compatibility was discussed. The necessity of experiments on humans was never mentioned, for the excellent therapeutical qualities of serum preserves and their agreeability had been known for years and had proved themselves long since in the field by the application of many tens of thousands of ampules.
Several scientific papers dealing with this matter had also been published.
I can skip a passage; and it will suffice to read the last paragraph. I quote:
I was not informed on which of the patients the SS intended to use the serum preserves they asked for. But I asked Prof. Dr. Mrugowsky to see to it that also the SS line all other departments which used serum preserves submit reports on their experiences of therapeutic success and compatibility.
Q: In the so-called Ding Diary, the use of protective vaccine is repeatedly mentioned. On the 24th of March to the 20th of April, 1943, there is an entry about carrying out of a large scale experiment on forty-five persons according to the scheme of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. Please, will you give us your views on that?
A: In the indictment we are accused among other things of having, carried out infections of human beings by means of pox, typhus, paratyphus A and B, cholera, yellow fever, and diphtheria. Apparently this accusation is based on this passage in Ding's Diary. May I first of all say that it isn't at all easy to produce artificial infections of human beings and particularly has it never been possible to produce artificial infections in the case of diphtheria. There were experiments about this during in which it was not possible that children who had infectious diphtheria bacilli sprayed into their throats would become ill with diphtheria. This did not work. In that case we are not concerned at all with any infection but with protective vaccinations, in fact, exactly the opposite; and I do believe that any accusation which the prosecution made would not have been made against us had the context of the natter been recognized clearly at the beginning.
The connections here were as follow's. Since the end of 1942 the training period for recruits in the Waffen SS at home stations amounted to only four weeks. During those four weeks, therefore, apart from military training, all vaccinations and inoculations which were essential had to be carried out. In order to enable the medical officer and the commanding officer to carry this matter out more easily, I devised a vaccination and inoculation plan containing the exact information regarding the day when vaccination or inoculation of recruits had to be carried out.
THE WITNESS: This vaccination plan shows that the interval between individual vaccinations amounted to an average of one week, which is the customary period. But during this one week other types of vaccinations were applied so that the entire period of vaccinations was abbreviated. We know from long experiences of the last war, particularly from the British, through White, that such vaccinations can be well carried out during a short period. Vaccination reactions aren't any more prominent than in the case of any ordinary vaccination.
But one great technical advantage does arise, namely, in a short period all vaccinated persons are still under control whereas in the case of the spreading cut of such vaccinations ever a lengthy period they will possibly be transferred to other stations and there are not available for observation.
One day the chief Medical officer of concentration camps, Loehning, told me that in the concentration camp Buchenwald a large number of Dutchmen had been interned. I think they numbered several thousand.
Thereupon I asked him whether he was aware of the fact that these Dutchmen did not know any compulsion for the vaccination against pox as we knew it in Germany, and particularly that they did not know the conception of the three vaccinations during a certain proscribed age period, and that, therefore, Dutchmen weren't as completely protected against pox as Germans were. In theory, therefore, at least it had to be expected that once pox were being introduced from outside, a danger which existed at all times when members of so many nations are crammed to ether, then a pox epidemic would occur.
Loehning was most perturbed about this. He hadn't known these facts; and he wanted to have all his camps vaccinated against pox immediately. I told him that that was not at all a necessity. In Germany through vaccine producers under state control we had the pox vaccine at our disposal at all times. So I said that there was sufficient time to carry out such a complete vaccination once the first case of pox occurred but that I thought that it was an exaggerated precaution if hundreds of thousands of people would be vaccinated against pox at such a point.
At the same time Loehning told me, however, that Russian prisoners of war had also arrived at Buchenwald and at other camps. Here we were concerned with a different type of danger because at that time, in the Spring of 1943, there were two prisoner of war camps in the Southern Ukraine where cholera had broken out, so that the possibility existed that through these Russian prisoners of war cholera might be spread and be brought into concentration camps in this manner.
In this case, therefore, immediate action was essential. I recommended to him, therefore, apart from anti-typhoids and para-typhoids, vaccines which had been the custom for a long time, the introduction of vaccinations against cholera in those camps which contained Russian prisoners.
Loehning subsequently complained about all the vaccinations which I considered essential. He thought that this was difficult to realize in practice; but I told him, "You have to do something for the protection of your prisoners in any case; otherwise you'd become guilty of a very considerable omission." I also told him that for about six months we in the waffen SS had found a different method of carrying out such vaccinations; and I showed him this vaccination plan which we had used for tens of thousands of people in Waffen-SS with the best of success and without any indigestibility.
In order to simplify vaccinations against various bacilli one vaccine, for instance, contained bacilli against four different tests. That was the so-called tetra vaccine which had already become well-known from the previous war and which now when cholera appeared in the Southern Ukraine, though in a slightly changed and improved shape, was once again introduced. This vaccine had been developed and tried out on soldiers through one of my associates; and my associate Dötzer reported about this during a consultation conference. The entire German armed forces were vaccinated with this vaccine. In fact, many millions of people, without any incidence, and with the [illegible] of success.
These same vaccines were also used for protective vaccinations in concentration camps. Subsequently in this vaccination plan we introduced vaccinations, first of all, against pox, secondly, against typhoid and paratyphoid A and B, and cholera. These vaccinations were the rule for the entire German armed forces. Furthermore, every member of the Waffen-SS was vaccinated against typhus and, because we had much diphtheria in home stations, also against diphtheria.
Loehning asked me whether he ought ot vaccinate against diphtheria because, of course, occasionally he too had accumulations of diphtheria incidence in concentration camps. I told him that this was not necessary since the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of the recruits of the Waffen SS and since, therefore, no more measures against diphtheria were necessary.
Q: This vaccination plan which was carried out on forty-five people, with commercial vaccines, was that to be considered as an experiment?
A: It has been described as a large scale experiment. I am not quite sure what Ding meant by the word "grosse versuche," "large experiment", because it was carried out on forty-five people. A few pages before this very entry in the diary he is talking about another series of experiments with typhus on 145 people. If you carry out vaccinations on forty-five people, then that is not a large-scale experiment.
Q: Well, is this to be considered as an experiment?
A: That isn't an experiment under any circumstances because there is nothing in this case which had to be experimented with. Digestibility was known for a long period in the case of millions of people, both at home and abroad. I believe that here it is language which is causing us difficulties because in Germany we have only one word for something which is described as "versuche," "experiment"; and even in the case of the introduction of a new drug, new medical supplies to the troops, we talk about "truppen versuche," "troop experiments." These are not experiments in the sense of the word "experiments," the outcome of which is unknown at the outset.
It is a check-up, an examination. So that one ought to draw this dividing line in this case between check-up, examination, in the case of vaccination because that most certainly is not an experiment.
Q: But then why did you give the advice that in spite of that not the entire camp should be vaccinated throughout but that first of all compatibility should be checked by means of a small group?
A: I knew that the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of troops and that their condition of nourishment was worse. Consequently, I recommended to Dr. Loehning that before vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people he first of all satisfy himself as to the digestibility of these vaccines under these special conditions in concentration camps. That was an act of extra precaution. We German doctors, before such large scale application of vaccine is to take place, love first of all to try the same thing on a smaller number of similar people in order to, as we call it, gut check of such vaccines.
Q: Please look at the last line on Page 13 of Ding's Diary. There is mention of a repeated vaccination against pox after three months. Is that customary?
A: No, that is not a custom. You only vaccinate once against pox; but I would assume that we are here concerned with an error on the entry since previously he is talking about diphtheria. During diphtheria vaccinations, a great deal of experience with children was collected but little experience in the case of adults, something which has occurred to other medical men, too, because the necessity to vaccinate against diphtheria would generally speaking not be in existence in the case of adults. It was seen that diphtheria vaccine reactions in the case of adults are more violent than in the case of children; and therefore a larger interval is introduced between two vaccinations which are necessary against diphtheria, in the case of a child the interval is twenty-eight days, on other words, a month. I would assume that here we are concerned with the second diphtheria vaccination which was to be carried out after three months and not, therefore, a pox vaccination.
DR. FLEMMING: In this connection I submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky 17-A. It is on Page 145. I offer it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 41. It is an affidavit from Director Demnitz; and I submit it for the information of the Tribunal without reading from it.
Vaccines against typhoid and para-thyphoid fever, also cholera. In the conditions described (crowding of many thousands of human beings of many nationalities into the concentration camp) the presence of numerous bacilli carriers and the constant danger of a typhoid or paratyphoid epidemic had to be reckoned with among the inmates of the camp. Thus inoculation was a necessary preventive health measure. The pleasing fact that cases of these diseases did not occur in large numbers in the camps is probably due to this inoculation. When Russian prisoners of war too entered the concentration camps at the same time as cholera broke out among Russian prisoners of war in the Ukraine and were in closest contact with the other prisoners, there also existed in my opinion a danger of cholera, so that inoculation against cholera, too, became necessary as a preventive health measure.
The use of vaccines manufactured by the Behring Works (typhoid, paratyphoid, vaccine T.A.B., and the so-called tetra vaccine, consisting of dead typhoid, paratyphoid A and B bacilli and dead cholera vibriones) was correct for these inoculations. The omission of such inoculations in the conditions described would probably have been termed a mistake (professional slip) by most doctors, bacteriologists, and hygienists.
Then I omit part of this document and read the last three lines of it:
Its protective value is recognized by the overwhelming number of specialists. The exact course, the tolerance of persons in regard to these inoculations and the effect of these inoculations has been known now for a long time; and therefore it is impossible to speak of these inoculations as 'experiments'.
The passage numbered VIII will not be read by me. It confirms Mrugowsky's testimony. Equally, Paragraph IX, Diphtheria, concerns Mrugowsky's testimony, and I shall only read from Paragraph 2, approximately the center:
Since 1930 many millions of children and a lesser number of grownups in many countries have been inoculated with these Absorbat vaccines. Their harmlessness and their effect, namely on children, is generally known in medical circles.
The last line at the bottom in the German:
It must be added, however, that the Absorbat used neither contained living nor dead diphtheria bacilli but only bacilli which had been deprived of their poison by treatment with Formol.
Then in the final paragraph:
The vaccinations prescribed were not experiments but regular inoculations internationally recognized, such as are undertaken in all civilized and enlightened countries as a protection against a state of epidemic.
This is an affidavit from Professor Dold, Freiburg, who is one of the greatest experts in this sphere.
Q: During experimental vaccinations by Dr. Ding, did he use new vaccines which had not been tried out?
A: No, these were commercial vaccines which had also been used in the armed forces and for the civilian population as well as the Waffen SS.
Q: Subsequent to the experimental inoculations by Dr. Ding or connected therewith, was there any occasion when experimental vaccinations on the vaccinated persons were carried out?
A: Neither in connection with such protective vaccinations nor any other affections was any infection carried out. In all these cases we are concerned with the first phase of an inoculation program for all concentration camp inmates and for their protection against disease.
DR. FLEMMING: I now submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky Number 87, Page 226. This is an extract from the Neue Zeitung, dated 7 March 1947, Page 2. I offer this extract as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 43. I submit it only for your information. It will draw your attention to the fact that 78 million Japanese are at present being vaccinated against pox and yellow fever.
Q: Well then who ordered these various experiments which we have just discussed?
A: You mean the typhus experiments?
Q: I mean ail the experiments?
A: The experiments of Dr. Ding occurred at the end of 1941 through the Collective Order given by Himmler. The aim was that all existing vaccines against typhus should be checked for their effectiveness on human beings. Since this comprehensive order was in existence from the beginning, the detailing of prisoners had to be settled from case to case. It was, as I emphasized, repeatedly, that at the beginning they were detailed through the administrative of the concentration camps, but later from the Reich Criminal police Department in this central department. Details regarding the channels of the orders are not known to me.
Q: Do you remember that the Prosecution submitted the document No. 1190, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 321, which contains a list of prisoners who were furnished the Reich Criminal Police Office for the purpose of experiments. Do you remember this list?
A: Yes, I know of it from the trial here.
Q: Did you request these inmates from the Reich Criminal Police Office or did you have any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office in that matter?
A: No.
Q: In that case you never gob in contact with the Reich Criminal police Office for the furnishing of persons for these experiments?
A: No.
Q: Do you know that Kogon asserted that you suddenly could not have exercised any influence on the furnishing of these inmates, but that there was a connection to the Reich Criminal Police Office, and to their furnishing of the inmates, and that you were the connecting link there. Could you say something on that?
A: This statement is wrong. I neither had any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office on that matter, nor do I know Kriminalrat Otto, who was the person in charge of the concentration camp inmates, and in the end that Ding and Grawitz only told me that criminals were used for these experiments.
The fact that since the end, finally of 1933, the furnishing of these inmates was centrally done through the office of the aid in Berlin was the proof to me that actually only criminal prisoners were used for the experiments. Only criminal persons could be dealt with at the Reich Criminal Police Office, where the political inmates were subordinate to the Political Police, that is, the Gestapo; these two offices had nothing to do with one another.
Q: How often were you at Buchenwald?
A: About three times.
Q: What did you do there?
A: Upon my arrival I went to the camp commander in order to report to him. That was customary procedure, and I was then received by the Dr. Ding, who was called to his office byway of telephone. Only by a commandant could a person be accompanied and could I pass through the camp. I then went with him to Block 50, and then there we passed on the questions of vaccine production occurring in detail. I entered Buchenwald for the first time in the Fall of 1943, that is, during the war. It is possible, that that was the 3rd of September, as it is maintained in Ding's report. During my first visit, I entered Block 46, too, but I already stated yesterday that at that time there was no experiment with infection carried out, and that I only saw a few patients there who had fallen ill spontaneously. I spoke to them there, and I was of the opinion that the infection experiments had stopped.
Q: Witness, Kogon and Kirchheimer have testified that your visit in Block 46 only lasted for half an hour, is that correct?
A: At the most it lasted for half an hour.
Q: You were just saying that you only entered Block 46 at this time. Kogon and Kirchheimer on the other hand testified that you were there on two or three occasions, and on every occasion visited Block 46, was that a correct situation?
A: That is not true, but it can easily be clarified. Both made the statement since they were in Block 50, and it is a fact that my arrival was registered, and announced at Block 46, and that I actually did not go there, out that we visited what was called Little Camp, which was behind Block 46. On that occasion I did not enter Block 46, but I have, I think, I stated the reason for that time.
Q: Could one observe Block 46 from Block 50 where Kogon and Kirchheimer were?
A: No, an other block was in between there, if I remember correctly.
Q: Wallachowsky maintained that when visiting Little Camp you saw the one that was death block, is that correct?
A: No, that is not true. I don't know of any such institution that existed. That is not established that such an institution did exist, and I still don't know of it today.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Flemming, the Tribunal would like to know something about the size of these blocks, how large are they in area, what is their composition, and what is their number — how many people were in those blocks particularly about Block 46 and block 50.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, surely. You heard the question, would you please answer it, witness?
THE WITNESS: The Camp Buchenwald consisted generally of wooden barracks. There were a few stone buildings there, which had two floors. I estimate that they were about fifteen meters long. If they were filled with people, a considerable amount of persons could be housed there. It was a question of how one placed his bed, whether one has a bed, which were on two or three floors, and that, of course, is an open question. Block 50 had no housing facilities. It was only a laboratory. The inmates who worked there were housed in an adjoining room. Block 46 was a hospital and it had better housing facilities than any other of the blocks of the camp. If I recall from my single visit there, there was only one level of beds, there, that is, one row of beds, was there, singly.
I did not see any other block at that time, and I therefore did not know how many rooms it contained. I don't believe that in neither building of the blocks, that patients in any one, could house there more than approximately one-hundred. That, however, is a more estimation on my part, and I believe that Dr. Hoven could tell more, or will be able to tell you more about it.
In the wooden barracks of the camp the inmates were much closer together, especially unfavorable housing facilities were any way near Little Camp; that was the reason why I was asked by Ding to inspect the camp. This led to a report by me which I sent to Chief of the Supreme Building Offices of the SS. I communicated my urgent request to re-organize the building in Buchenwald in order to help that situation. In that camp the inmates were very close together, and were definitely overcrowded.
Q: With reference to Block 46 would you consider that Dr. Morgen's statement was correct, that Block 46 was furnished just as any modern army hospital and that patients were cared for as they would be cared for in any army hospital?
A: The impression which I gained after my short visit there was extremely favorable. The distance from one bed to another was about one meter and a half, that is the customary distance as it is to be found in hospitals. Beds were covered with white lines; on the tables there were table cloths; and I had a very favorable impression in that regard.
Q: How about the furnishings in Block 50? What were the work conditions there?
A: Block 50 was modernly equipped laboratory. It had all the special equipment which could be required. The walls of the laboratory were painted and there was running cold and warm water. The equipment had electrical current as is the case in every well furnished institution. The inmates who were employed there had numerous liberties. In particular it was not necessary for thorn to attend the camp roll calls. Because of danger of infection they received additional nourishment and not one member of Block 50 who was examined here has asserted that he personally fared badly. They were well nourished and had any literature at their disposal they desired and I know that literature of a professional nature, as well as fiction, was sent to them from the university library at Jena.
DR. FLEMMING: Were the questions of the Tribunal answered?
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: You were just saying that the inmates were well nourished. In that connection I want to point out to you that Kogon testified that the inmates working in Block 50, because of hunger, had prepared the rabbits used for experiments for eating. Is that correct?
A: I am convinced that this testimony is correct and there is really nothing to it. The rabbits are infected starting from the nose; there is only an inflammation in the lung to be registered but never a general infection of the animal. The lung us taken out in order to be used for the production of vaccine. The carrier of typhus reacts very quickly to temperature. By mere boiling every bacteria is killed with absolute certainty. If the meat of that rabbit is thoroughly boiled there is not the least danger of any infection. I may point out that in all countries where there is food legislation and food rationing meat of animals who fell ill of tuberculosis is always admissible for human consumption. That is true of a number of other illnesses.
Q: Thank you. That is sufficient. When did the delivery of vaccines from Buchenwald start?
A: The production started in August 1943, when the first preparations were made. The real large-scale production started at the end of 1943.
Q: What were the amounts of vaccine produced monthly?
A: On the average 30 to 50 and up to 50 liters were produced.
Q: How many portions of vaccinations would you say that was?
A: 50 liters of vaccine represent 25,000 portions.
Q: 50 liters, 25,000 portions. That means that about 25,000 portions of vaccine were delivered monthly?
A: That is right.
Q: Kogon testifies that the inmates sabotaged the production of vaccine and only produced a good vaccine for themselves, that was a small circle, but otherwise produced a product which was not harmful but was not useful either. What do you know about that?
A: This is one of the most peculiar remarks I heard here. If a vaccine is being produced it is being done for the purpose of protecting people in danger against illness and death.
Especially in the case of concentration camp inmates it had to be known how extensive the typhus danger was, not only in the camps but also in the army and the throughout Germany. Especially in Block 50 there were a number of inmates who were transferred from Auschwitz to Buchenwald since they were specialists and had to work there. Auschwitz was one of the largest typhus infected places which we had in Europe. We had greatest difficulties to become master of this epidemic. These typhus specialists who came to Buchenwald-and it is not to be assumed that they did not realize the extensive danger of typhus-were told repeatedly that the reason for the production of vaccines was this danger of typhus. If they now assert that they sabotaged the production of vaccine and produced a preparation which while not harmful was not useful in any way, this, in my opinion, represents an attitude which has nothing to do with the concepts of humanity as is being expressed by the so gentlemen today.
Q: Kogon gave the reason for this sabotaging that one of the specialists in Block 50 had found out that the viruses contained in that vaccine were not Rickettsia Prowazekia but other viruses. Would you please shortly state your opinion whether Rickettsia Prowazekia is recognizable or easily changeable?
A: This observation of Mr. Fleck is quite understandable. There is hardly one bacteria in the field of bacteriology which is as changeable in its exterior for as the typhus virus. Herr Fleck in Cracow and Lemberg was dealing with Rickettsia that were bred in the louse and they naturally looked much different than the Rickettsia which were bred in animal lungs. Those differences are set down repeatedly in literature and it is therefore to be understood quite easily. I should like to revert to the production of the vaccine itself and I must say that we had two types of vaccine at our disposal.
From the point of effectiveness they did not differ but they only differed because of the fact that the electricity worms in Weimar had been damaged because of air attacks and we therefore had no electrical current at our disposal in Buchenwald. That is why our refrigerators discontinued working. Now if vaccine is kept too warm it changes its color but really does nothing to the effectiveness or tolerance. It is only a question of exterior appearance. Dr. Ding designated especially that vaccine which became discolored and failed to designate in any particular way the other kind of vaccine. This, perhaps, may be the reason why two different types of vaccines are being discussed. However, there was no difference in the effectiveness and it is technically not possible because it originates from the same phase of production.
Q: Could you exercise any influence on the distribution of the vaccine?
A: Generally, no. The vaccine was sent to the central depot of the Waffen-SS at Berlin. This was done because all the requests for vaccine and drugs were directed to this central depot by all physicians and it was from there that distribution was carried out. I may point oat that only part of the vaccine, I think a third, was used for purposes of the Waffen-SS, whereas the larger part, about two-thirds of the entire production, was placed at the disposal of the concentration camps and was distributed among inmates for their protection—naturally only in those camps that were endangered by typhus.
Q: I am submitting to the Tribunal, document Mrugowsky 25, which can be found on page 164 of the Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky 26, page 164. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 44. This is an affidavit by Karl Heinrich Wehle, the head of the Main Medical Depot of the Waffen SS. I only submit it for the notice of the Tribunal.
At the same time I refer to Document Mrugowsky 26, which is to be found on page 167, which I already submitted as Mrugowsky Exhibit 6, and I shall quote from page 170, paragraph 7, which so far was not read. This is the affidavit of Dr. Karl Blumenreuther and paragraph 7 reads as follows, and I quote:
By far the greatest proportion of the typhus vaccines produced in Buchenwald and of the additional typhus vaccines procured through the central medical service depot was transferred to the concentration camps and could be so transferred because the vaccinations ordered to be carried out in the military SS divisions, so far as these were subordinate to the armed forces during their mobilization, were undertaken by the medical service of the armed forces.
I further submit an excerpt from the testimony of Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber which he made on 26 August 1946 before the International Military Tribunal. This can be found in the German transcript of the International Military Tribunal on page 15747. This is Mrugowsky Document No. 27 and can be found on page 173 of the document book. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No, 45. Answering the question:
What scientific value did the experiments of the specialist Ding have?
Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber answered:
In my opinion they had no scientific value at all because during the war we had already gained much experience and collected a great deal of data in this field. We were thoroughly acquainted with the composition and qualities of our vaccine and no such tests were required any longer. Many of the vaccines examined by Ding were not used any more at all and were rejected.
Would you define your position to that statement?
A: I do not know how Schreiber can express that opinion, nor do I know whether he is in possession of full knowledge of the results of this work.
I never discussed this question with him and I therefore cannot examine it. That much is clear, however. Schreiber is speaking of a later period of time for the vaccines that were no longer produced were not produced because the experiments of Ding had proven their inferiority. The epidemiological examination of the various vaccines during the war only originates from a later period of time, in particular the years 1943 and 1944. T'he exploitation of these experiences only originates from the last years of the war and it is therefore my opinion that this testimony of Schreiber is incorrect.
Q: I interrupt you and I shall have Exhibit Handloser 14 shown to you, from Handloser Document Book 3. We are here concerned with an excerpt of a scientific thesis by Geheimrat Otto. Do you know Geheimrat Otto?
A: Yes, I know Geheimrat Otto. He is probably the best typhus expert of not only Germany but Europe, who dealt with typhus throughout his life.
Q: From this excerpt you will see that Geheimrat Otto says, still in 1943:
While the efficacy of lice vaccines has already been tested on a large scale in Poland, Ethiopia, and China, and the vaccine has proved its value, it is still necessary to gather large scale practical experiences with lung and vitelline sac vaccines. In animal experiments they have proved of equal value with the former.
Would you say something on that?
A: Professor Otto is saying here that even in the year 1943 the chicken egg vaccine and the vaccines from lungs of animals were not sufficiently know. That confirms what I have just testified and that is in answer to Dr. Schreiber's statement.
Q: The witness Berhardt Schmidt, who was interrogated here, stated that human experiments were superfluous for the purpose of testing vaccines and that the value of the individual typhus vaccines could have been ascertained through an epidemiological way. What is your point of view in that connection?
A: This is my opinion also. It is my opinion that these tests could, have been carried out in an epidemiological manner. I represented that point of view before Grawitz and Himmler from the very beginning.
Q: You stated already yesterday that when testing this natter in an epidemiological way a large number of persons would have to be vaccinated and to be compared with a large number of persons who were not vaccinated. Would such a long experiment have been possible considering the circumstances as they prevailed during the war?
A: Such a test would have been possible. It was actually introduced by me within the framework of the ministry. It is a matter of course, however, that the results can only be collected at a very late date and can only be exploited at a much later date. In the case of the entire experiment we were concerned with bridging over this space of time.
Q: In carrying out this examination one could have found out that one vaccine has only a very small effectiveness, as was actually found out in the case of the Behring vaccine. In that case would you say that the mortality of persons vaccinated with the inferior vaccine would have been much greater than the entire amount of fatalities as they occurred in Buchenwald? You know that the statement regarding the fatality figures fluctuated between 100 and 120.
A: That could be assumed to be the case with certainty. Comparison is the manner in which all tests are carried out in this field. I shall give you a few examples for that. When Emil von Behring in the year 1890 discovered the diphtheria serum it was at first used by a physician of the Berlin Charity in the case of diphtheria infected children. He treated about 1200 children suffering from diphtheria with that serum. He registered a mortality rate in the case of these children, in spite of the treatment, of approximately 22 percent. Just as many children did not receive the serum but were treated in a different manner In this group the mortality rate was double, approximately 44 percent. These 240 or 250 children who died and who were in that control group certainly could have been saved if they had been giver the blessing of that diphtheria serum. But that w as in reality the purpose of that test and one had to take into account that a larger ratio of mortalities would result in the control group and that then the value of the serum would be recognized.
Q: I think that this example will suffice. In that case you are really admitting that an objection against experiments in Buchenwald could not be justified?
A: During the war I did not work on any disease as ardently as on typhus. I treated thousands of patients who fell ill of typhus and examined them. I believe that in the case of such an experience one gains some knowledge of the disease. I often considered that question and I hold the opinion that my objection at the time was perhaps not justified by events. On the other hand it is my opinion that in the case of every task one has to keep the question in mind whether one is In a position to execute that task. I must admit even today that in spite of the success of the experiments, which cannot be denied, I would act similarly in yet another position and would assume the same attitude as I assured at that time.
Even today I would not be prepared to carry out any such experiments personally or have them carried out upon my responsibility, although a success would cone about undoubtedly.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it seems to me that Dr. Mrugowsky has ably covered the typhus field now; we have heard all about vaccines of all sorts and the theory of typhus; the question here is whether or not he artificially injected anyone with virulent virus, one of the main reasons for him being here. I think we could curtail this examination considerably if we consider that this background material now is sufficient.
DR. FLEMMING: The question which I just out was the last question in the typhus field. I am now going over to the yellow fever vaccine, which is described in the Ding Diary.
THE PRESIDENT: While there was some testimony on the part of the witness on the stand possibly not particularly relevant, the Prosecution introduced the Ding Diary in evidence in its entirety and it is pertinent for the defendants to attack the reliability of the diary any way they can. In any event, counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky has now finished, according to his statement, this particular phase of the evidence. Counsel may proceed.
Q: You know the entry in Ding's diary dated the 10th of January 1943 regarding the yellow fever tests. Did you know of these experiments?
A: Yes, I knew of these experiments. I knew about the test of the vaccine. They really were not experiments. They were tests of vaccines. I suggested that to Grawitz and he ordered it.
Q: Far what reason did you initiate that test?
A: I initiated that test because at that tine new German divisions, among them divisions of the Waffen SS, were being committed to the Africa Corps. The intended campaign of the Africa Corps was to aim at Dacar and would have landed us into yellow fever danger spots. Therefore, in the framework of all other preparations of this campaign we carried out preparations concerning protective vaccination against yellow fever. The entire preparation was in the hands of Grawitz who was concerned with planning.
Q: Was any danger to the vaccinated persons connected with the yellow fever tests?
A: No. This vaccine is produced by virus which is no longer in a position to bring about pathogenesis in the human being. In Germany we have no yellow fever virus at our disposal which is pathogenic to human beings. This vaccine, however, is in a position to bring about immunization to yellow fever. A danger to one's self is out of the question from the start.
Q: Was the yellow fever vaccine a new vaccine or was its tolerance and effectiveness known?
A: The vaccine was produced according to a proven French process. All colonial troops in central Africa and large Parts of the population of Central America were vaccinated with the same vaccine. The entire expeditionary corps of America which entered central Africa had to be vaccinated with a similar vaccine. It is a natter of course that throughout the times millions of such vaccinations were carried out and not one danger to one's self became know.
Q: Why did you initiate a test of that vaccine if it was so well known?
A: We had no personal experience about that vaccine. Dr. Schmidt testified here that it was difficult to transport because it has to be kept cold and frozen. A special transport vessel had been developed for that purpose and in order to overcome the technical difficulties in dealing with that vessel it was necessary that the physicians become acquainted with the technicalities concerned with that vaccine.
Q: Were infections carried out in order to carry out the effectiveness of that vaccine?
A: No, I already stated that we had no pathogenic virus in Germany and, therefore, could not carry out any infections. In this case only two or five cubic centimeters of blood were drown in order that in this manner the immunity might be discovered for experiments on man.
Q: Did you get reports from Ding about results of these tests?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether volunteers were used for these tests?
A: Yes, only volunteers were used. Ding states that in his own declaration, which is No. 275, Exhibit 283, and he says that he knows of a list and that in such cases many hundreds of volunteers could be found for such vaccines since they did not have to work for four weeks and since they received better nourishment as a result.
Q: I now turn to the gas gangrene experiments. When examining the defendants Handloser, Rostock, Schroeder, Genzken, and the witness Bernhard Schmidt, we have heard to what extent gas gangrene became prevalent at the front. I refer you to the Document 578, Prosecution Exhibit No. 248, which is before you in Document Book 12. I shall have it submitted to you. Would you please tell the Tribunal whether, in connection with gas gangrene, there was an extreme necessity in concentration camps and in the army in order to discover protective means to combat this disease?
A: It was pointed out frequently that no infection can be taken so seriously in the surgical field as the infection by gas gangrene since the mortality in case of these injuries was very high. In concentration camps, as Noeling told me, we often had cases of gas gangrene.
Therefore, the Asid Works suggested to apply vaccine in the same manner as in the case of diphtheria. This was carried out by these works sometimes in cases of tetanus. Such vaccine against gas gangrene was produced by Behring Works and was applied on students at Marburg University at first, about which a publication is available. I received a small part of this gas gangrene toxin in order to protect people in danger. This gas gangrene toxin I gave to Noeling and he used it at Buchenwald. The chart is available about persons where this vaccine was used and this is to be found in Document Book 12, and it becomes evident from that that there is even an increase in temperature in the case of that vaccination and that we are here concerned with a completely harmless project which has nothing at all to do with an infection.
Q: Dr. Ding in an affidavit, Document 257, Exhibit 283, in Document Book 12, which is before you, stated that at the Military Medical Academy a conference took place on the question of gas gangrene serum. What do you know about that?
A: It is correct that such a conference had actually taken place. Whenever gas gangrene occurred a large amount of gas gangrene serum had to be used for treatment in order to insure success. That does not only include ten or fifteen cubic centimeters but four to eight hundred cubic centimeters which is introduced into the patient in the course of a few days. In Germany all serums which are obtained from animals, mostly horses, in order to maintain them better, receive phenol and carbolic acid, and that 0.5% — i.e., in the amount of 400 cubic centimeters I added a concentration of two cubic centimeters phenol acid. This amount is, of course, far above the tolerance in the case of human beings. Carbolic acid is one of the strongest acids we possess. When treating people with gas gangrene serums a number of cases of death had occurred. It was discussed whether we were concerned with cases of serum death which came as a result of the serum or whether we were concerned with the phenol addition. Ding and I participated in that conference with others.
THE PRESIDENT: It is now time for recess. The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 Monday morning.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 31 March 1947.)
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1947-03-28, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)
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AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 28 Mar 1947.)
JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY — Resumed
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION — Continued
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: Before the recess we were talking about the taking off of blood in the case of typhus and you were saying in that connection that a cleverly carried out taking off of blood would be rather beneficial than damaging in the case of typhoid. What do you consider a cleverly carried out operation of that type?
A: A human being has a total of about five liters of blood. It has been known for decades that damage to health through removal of blood, and particularly danger to life, would only take place if one liter or more is taken off; but even that limit is not a certainty. In the case of removed blood, therefore, from the vein one will stay well below that limit. The rule is not to tale more than five hundred cubic centimeter. From the entires in the so-called diary it becomes apparent that on the average 430 cubic centimeters were taken from the convalescent patients. Consequently, usual limits were observed so that danger for this removal of blood was out of the question from the beginning.
Q: These convalescent patients — were they previously examined before the convalescent scrum was taken away from them?
A: They were still under medical consideration in the hospital and the doctor in whose care they were get them ready for this removal of blood. This would not have been done if in any way there had been any reason on the strength of which the patient might have been in jeopardy, for instance, through anemia or anything like that.
Q: The persons from whom convalescent serum blood was removed — did they in any way receive compensation?
A: In Germany even in peacetime there has been an arrangement usually according to which, in the case of blood transfusions and some such operatic additional food rations could be allocated. This ruling, which was also applicable to the armed forces, was also brought into cooperation for concentration camp inmates and I know that a corresponding order was given through the chief of concentration camps through administrative channels.
I saw a copy of that order. The persons in question whose blood had been taken, therefore, had additional rations. Being more than 150 cubic centimeters of blood was removed, which is the lowest limit, such compensation in the shape of food could be given.
Q: You said that you considered that any damage to health was considered out of the question by you in the case of such removal of blood in the case of convalescent patients. Please remember that Dr. Kogon has testified that this removal of blood was at least part of the reasons for later fatalities.
A: This opinion of Dr. Kogon is incorrect. Nor does he speak on the strength of his own knowledge because he himself stated during his testimony that as far as the events in Block 46 were concerned he only knew them by hearsay; but he himself had no business there, so that he could not collect such experiences of his own. His assertion, therefore, is based on the statements by third persons and I would like to point out that Kogon himself also has said that persons who later on were to be infected with typhus had previously been put in a particularly favorable condition of nourishment by means of considerable additional food rations.
Q: Then there is another mention of the removal of blood when, through Dr. Ellenheck, in the so-called small camp and according to Kogon's testimony blood was removed and used for blood conserves. What is to be understood by that?
A: To begin with — with reference to conserving of blood during the numerous wounds which happened during a frontal war, blood transfusions became one of the most important means of treatment. In the case of numerous such instances there is additional condition of shock and it transpired that it is not a good thing in this condition to carry out transfusions of blood with blood corpuscles because through that circulation is additionally burdened. Therefore, one passed on to using serum only; despite all this at the front there are numerous cases when the transfusion of blood appears advisable and is carried out.
There is not always a sufficient number of blood donors available and from various sources, not only in Germany but also abroad, particularly in Switzerland, the problem was tackled of bringing blood into a shape in which it can be kept several weeks and in which it can be taken to the front where it can be given to wounded soldiers. In my institute we were working, on this problem on behalf of our divisions, and such blood conserves, which could be kept for four weeks, were manufactured by us on a larger scale, and they were used for our divisions at the front. This blood did not originate from concentration camps. To the contrary, Himmler had emphatically forbidden that for use among Waffen-SS members blood from concentration camps should be used.
We set up a special donor organization in Berlin through appealing to the population. Particularly women and girls reported in such large numbers, voluntarily that is, to give their blood for this purpose, that we had more than sufficient donors for our purposes. From the stocks of this conserved blood we also supplied large quantities to concentration camps but when, later on, transportation problems became more and more difficult because of the increasing air attacks, the demands of concentration camps could no longer be satisfied. Following a special proposal of the chief medical officer of concentration camps, the requirements of detainees were supplied from blood taken from healthy prisoners. Consequently, to this is due the entry in Ding Diary that in Buchenwald too healthy prisoners in the so-called "smaller camp", which was the description for billets and quarters, had blood taken away from them, and Kogon states quite clearly that these donors were reporting voluntarily in order to receive the additional food supplies.
Q: So that it is your opinion that this method of removing blood is perfectly justifiable?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you yourself ever give blood in that manner?
A: Yes, but not very often. Possibly twenty times.
Q: What was the quantity of blood that they took away from you?
A: Generally 500 cubic centimeters, rarely less, but a few times, 750 cubic centimeters.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection, I submit Document Mrugowsky #15. It is on page 133 of Mrugowsky's document book. #15 on page 133. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 38. It is affidavit from Professor Dr. Siebeck, Heidelb* Professor Siebeck, in connection with some of the questions which I put to him, only stated briefly that the question is — Page 133; Document 15, Exhibit 38. Professor Siebeck, in the case of individual questions which I put to him, only states in his affidavit that this question is to be answered in the affirmative and I have, therefore, taken the liberty on Page 136, immediately following this affidavit, to reprint the questions which I had put to Professor Siebeck and these questions can be found on page 136. Professor Siebeck says in his affidavit under figure 1 that:
Then I can skip this and pass on to:
THE WITNESS: Can I add briefly that these clinical statements have been made because Dr. Ding, in his acridin work, is referring to them under the separate headings, and the prosecution, during the submission of this document, had said that these complications in typhus cases are traceable to the introduce of acridin and rutenol. That is erroneous. These complications arc due to the disease as such, and Professor Siebeck, who has particularly great experience in this sphere, states that the complications which were mentioned happened very often in typhus cases and are, therefore, not due to the medical treatment which Ding applied.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: You have Ding's Diary before you. On the 21st of December, 1943, until the 16th of January, 1944, on the 23th of January to the 12th of February, 1944, and the 22nd of May, 1944, to the 16th of June, 1944, you find the entry in this diary to the effect "Control of blood serum"? What experiment is he talking, about in that connection?
A: That was not an experiment at all. It was a therapy. I already stated this morning that in several cases with shock and also disturbances through infection, one only reluctantly decides on a blood transfusion, preferring rather to use blood serum. During, this war, hundreds of thousands of soldier were treated with blood; serum conserves with the greatest success. Incidents of any type never happened, and it was my aim, therefore, on behalf of the infection department of hospitals to get hold of such scrum. I did not succeed in doing so, because the production of these blood serum conserves was through the military academy of the army, and our field units were supplied through armies and divisions. As far as rear units were concerned, such conserves were not at all available. It was only after a lengthy period that I nevertheless, succeeded in getting hold of such ampules, and for treatment of disturbances of the circulatory system I placed such ampules at Ding's disposal for his patients.
Q: In the military academy or any other office did they request to have this serum conserve tried out or to check regarding its effects?
A: No and there wasn't any cause whatever to do so. In hundred of thousands of cases reactions and effects to such conserves had been known, and publications to that effect were available. I do not think that there was a single forward dressing station at any front of this last war where this conserve was not used at one time or other.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I submit to you Document Mrogowsky Number 16. It is on Page 140 of Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky Number 13, Page 140. I offer it as Document Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 39. It is an affidavit from one Konrad Lang who produced this blood serum conserve.
Following the customary preamble he first of all describes how these conserves were manufactured. Then on Page 140 of the German version he says:
I can skip a passage; and it will suffice to read the last paragraph. I quote:
Q: In the so-called Ding Diary, the use of protective vaccine is repeatedly mentioned. On the 24th of March to the 20th of April, 1943, there is an entry about carrying out of a large scale experiment on forty-five persons according to the scheme of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. Please, will you give us your views on that?
A: In the indictment we are accused among other things of having, carried out infections of human beings by means of pox, typhus, paratyphus A and B, cholera, yellow fever, and diphtheria. Apparently this accusation is based on this passage in Ding's Diary. May I first of all say that it isn't at all easy to produce artificial infections of human beings and particularly has it never been possible to produce artificial infections in the case of diphtheria. There were experiments about this during in which it was not possible that children who had infectious diphtheria bacilli sprayed into their throats would become ill with diphtheria. This did not work. In that case we are not concerned at all with any infection but with protective vaccinations, in fact, exactly the opposite; and I do believe that any accusation which the prosecution made would not have been made against us had the context of the natter been recognized clearly at the beginning.
The connections here were as follow's. Since the end of 1942 the training period for recruits in the Waffen SS at home stations amounted to only four weeks. During those four weeks, therefore, apart from military training, all vaccinations and inoculations which were essential had to be carried out. In order to enable the medical officer and the commanding officer to carry this matter out more easily, I devised a vaccination and inoculation plan containing the exact information regarding the day when vaccination or inoculation of recruits had to be carried out.
DR. FLEMMING: This vaccination plan is Document Mrugowsky Number 17 and can be found on Page 143 of Document Book 1-A. I beg to submit it as Exhibit Mrugowsky Number 40. I am only submitting it for the information of the Tribunal and will refrain from reading it. This is Document Mrugowsky Number 17, Page 143, Exhibit Mrugowsky 40.
THE WITNESS: This vaccination plan shows that the interval between individual vaccinations amounted to an average of one week, which is the customary period. But during this one week other types of vaccinations were applied so that the entire period of vaccinations was abbreviated. We know from long experiences of the last war, particularly from the British, through White, that such vaccinations can be well carried out during a short period. Vaccination reactions aren't any more prominent than in the case of any ordinary vaccination.
But one great technical advantage does arise, namely, in a short period all vaccinated persons are still under control whereas in the case of the spreading cut of such vaccinations ever a lengthy period they will possibly be transferred to other stations and there are not available for observation.
One day the chief Medical officer of concentration camps, Loehning, told me that in the concentration camp Buchenwald a large number of Dutchmen had been interned. I think they numbered several thousand.
Thereupon I asked him whether he was aware of the fact that these Dutchmen did not know any compulsion for the vaccination against pox as we knew it in Germany, and particularly that they did not know the conception of the three vaccinations during a certain proscribed age period, and that, therefore, Dutchmen weren't as completely protected against pox as Germans were. In theory, therefore, at least it had to be expected that once pox were being introduced from outside, a danger which existed at all times when members of so many nations are crammed to ether, then a pox epidemic would occur.
Loehning was most perturbed about this. He hadn't known these facts; and he wanted to have all his camps vaccinated against pox immediately. I told him that that was not at all a necessity. In Germany through vaccine producers under state control we had the pox vaccine at our disposal at all times. So I said that there was sufficient time to carry out such a complete vaccination once the first case of pox occurred but that I thought that it was an exaggerated precaution if hundreds of thousands of people would be vaccinated against pox at such a point.
At the same time Loehning told me, however, that Russian prisoners of war had also arrived at Buchenwald and at other camps. Here we were concerned with a different type of danger because at that time, in the Spring of 1943, there were two prisoner of war camps in the Southern Ukraine where cholera had broken out, so that the possibility existed that through these Russian prisoners of war cholera might be spread and be brought into concentration camps in this manner.
In this case, therefore, immediate action was essential. I recommended to him, therefore, apart from anti-typhoids and para-typhoids, vaccines which had been the custom for a long time, the introduction of vaccinations against cholera in those camps which contained Russian prisoners.
Loehning subsequently complained about all the vaccinations which I considered essential. He thought that this was difficult to realize in practice; but I told him, "You have to do something for the protection of your prisoners in any case; otherwise you'd become guilty of a very considerable omission." I also told him that for about six months we in the waffen SS had found a different method of carrying out such vaccinations; and I showed him this vaccination plan which we had used for tens of thousands of people in Waffen-SS with the best of success and without any indigestibility.
In order to simplify vaccinations against various bacilli one vaccine, for instance, contained bacilli against four different tests. That was the so-called tetra vaccine which had already become well-known from the previous war and which now when cholera appeared in the Southern Ukraine, though in a slightly changed and improved shape, was once again introduced. This vaccine had been developed and tried out on soldiers through one of my associates; and my associate Dötzer reported about this during a consultation conference. The entire German armed forces were vaccinated with this vaccine. In fact, many millions of people, without any incidence, and with the [illegible] of success.
These same vaccines were also used for protective vaccinations in concentration camps. Subsequently in this vaccination plan we introduced vaccinations, first of all, against pox, secondly, against typhoid and paratyphoid A and B, and cholera. These vaccinations were the rule for the entire German armed forces. Furthermore, every member of the Waffen-SS was vaccinated against typhus and, because we had much diphtheria in home stations, also against diphtheria.
Loehning asked me whether he ought ot vaccinate against diphtheria because, of course, occasionally he too had accumulations of diphtheria incidence in concentration camps. I told him that this was not necessary since the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of the recruits of the Waffen SS and since, therefore, no more measures against diphtheria were necessary.
Q: This vaccination plan which was carried out on forty-five people, with commercial vaccines, was that to be considered as an experiment?
A: It has been described as a large scale experiment. I am not quite sure what Ding meant by the word "grosse versuche," "large experiment", because it was carried out on forty-five people. A few pages before this very entry in the diary he is talking about another series of experiments with typhus on 145 people. If you carry out vaccinations on forty-five people, then that is not a large-scale experiment.
Q: Well, is this to be considered as an experiment?
A: That isn't an experiment under any circumstances because there is nothing in this case which had to be experimented with. Digestibility was known for a long period in the case of millions of people, both at home and abroad. I believe that here it is language which is causing us difficulties because in Germany we have only one word for something which is described as "versuche," "experiment"; and even in the case of the introduction of a new drug, new medical supplies to the troops, we talk about "truppen versuche," "troop experiments." These are not experiments in the sense of the word "experiments," the outcome of which is unknown at the outset.
It is a check-up, an examination. So that one ought to draw this dividing line in this case between check-up, examination, in the case of vaccination because that most certainly is not an experiment.
Q: But then why did you give the advice that in spite of that not the entire camp should be vaccinated throughout but that first of all compatibility should be checked by means of a small group?
A: I knew that the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of troops and that their condition of nourishment was worse. Consequently, I recommended to Dr. Loehning that before vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people he first of all satisfy himself as to the digestibility of these vaccines under these special conditions in concentration camps. That was an act of extra precaution. We German doctors, before such large scale application of vaccine is to take place, love first of all to try the same thing on a smaller number of similar people in order to, as we call it, gut check of such vaccines.
Q: Please look at the last line on Page 13 of Ding's Diary. There is mention of a repeated vaccination against pox after three months. Is that customary?
A: No, that is not a custom. You only vaccinate once against pox; but I would assume that we are here concerned with an error on the entry since previously he is talking about diphtheria. During diphtheria vaccinations, a great deal of experience with children was collected but little experience in the case of adults, something which has occurred to other medical men, too, because the necessity to vaccinate against diphtheria would generally speaking not be in existence in the case of adults. It was seen that diphtheria vaccine reactions in the case of adults are more violent than in the case of children; and therefore a larger interval is introduced between two vaccinations which are necessary against diphtheria, in the case of a child the interval is twenty-eight days, on other words, a month. I would assume that here we are concerned with the second diphtheria vaccination which was to be carried out after three months and not, therefore, a pox vaccination.
DR. FLEMMING: In this connection I submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky 17-A. It is on Page 145. I offer it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 41. It is an affidavit from Director Demnitz; and I submit it for the information of the Tribunal without reading from it.
At the same time I offer in evidence Document Mrugowsky Number 18, on Page 148. I offer this in evidence as Exhibit Mrugowsky 42. I should like to read from it briefly as follows:
Then I omit part of this document and read the last three lines of it:
The passage numbered VIII will not be read by me. It confirms Mrugowsky's testimony. Equally, Paragraph IX, Diphtheria, concerns Mrugowsky's testimony, and I shall only read from Paragraph 2, approximately the center:
The last line at the bottom in the German:
Then in the final paragraph:
This is an affidavit from Professor Dold, Freiburg, who is one of the greatest experts in this sphere.
Q: During experimental vaccinations by Dr. Ding, did he use new vaccines which had not been tried out?
A: No, these were commercial vaccines which had also been used in the armed forces and for the civilian population as well as the Waffen SS.
Q: Subsequent to the experimental inoculations by Dr. Ding or connected therewith, was there any occasion when experimental vaccinations on the vaccinated persons were carried out?
A: Neither in connection with such protective vaccinations nor any other affections was any infection carried out. In all these cases we are concerned with the first phase of an inoculation program for all concentration camp inmates and for their protection against disease.
DR. FLEMMING: I now submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky Number 87, Page 226. This is an extract from the Neue Zeitung, dated 7 March 1947, Page 2. I offer this extract as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 43. I submit it only for your information. It will draw your attention to the fact that 78 million Japanese are at present being vaccinated against pox and yellow fever.
Q: Well then who ordered these various experiments which we have just discussed?
A: You mean the typhus experiments?
Q: I mean ail the experiments?
A: The experiments of Dr. Ding occurred at the end of 1941 through the Collective Order given by Himmler. The aim was that all existing vaccines against typhus should be checked for their effectiveness on human beings. Since this comprehensive order was in existence from the beginning, the detailing of prisoners had to be settled from case to case. It was, as I emphasized, repeatedly, that at the beginning they were detailed through the administrative of the concentration camps, but later from the Reich Criminal police Department in this central department. Details regarding the channels of the orders are not known to me.
Q: Do you remember that the Prosecution submitted the document No. 1190, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 321, which contains a list of prisoners who were furnished the Reich Criminal Police Office for the purpose of experiments. Do you remember this list?
A: Yes, I know of it from the trial here.
Q: Did you request these inmates from the Reich Criminal Police Office or did you have any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office in that matter?
A: No.
Q: In that case you never gob in contact with the Reich Criminal police Office for the furnishing of persons for these experiments?
A: No.
Q: Do you know that Kogon asserted that you suddenly could not have exercised any influence on the furnishing of these inmates, but that there was a connection to the Reich Criminal Police Office, and to their furnishing of the inmates, and that you were the connecting link there. Could you say something on that?
A: This statement is wrong. I neither had any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office on that matter, nor do I know Kriminalrat Otto, who was the person in charge of the concentration camp inmates, and in the end that Ding and Grawitz only told me that criminals were used for these experiments.
The fact that since the end, finally of 1933, the furnishing of these inmates was centrally done through the office of the aid in Berlin was the proof to me that actually only criminal prisoners were used for the experiments. Only criminal persons could be dealt with at the Reich Criminal Police Office, where the political inmates were subordinate to the Political Police, that is, the Gestapo; these two offices had nothing to do with one another.
Q: How often were you at Buchenwald?
A: About three times.
Q: What did you do there?
A: Upon my arrival I went to the camp commander in order to report to him. That was customary procedure, and I was then received by the Dr. Ding, who was called to his office byway of telephone. Only by a commandant could a person be accompanied and could I pass through the camp. I then went with him to Block 50, and then there we passed on the questions of vaccine production occurring in detail. I entered Buchenwald for the first time in the Fall of 1943, that is, during the war. It is possible, that that was the 3rd of September, as it is maintained in Ding's report. During my first visit, I entered Block 46, too, but I already stated yesterday that at that time there was no experiment with infection carried out, and that I only saw a few patients there who had fallen ill spontaneously. I spoke to them there, and I was of the opinion that the infection experiments had stopped.
Q: Witness, Kogon and Kirchheimer have testified that your visit in Block 46 only lasted for half an hour, is that correct?
A: At the most it lasted for half an hour.
Q: You were just saying that you only entered Block 46 at this time. Kogon and Kirchheimer on the other hand testified that you were there on two or three occasions, and on every occasion visited Block 46, was that a correct situation?
A: That is not true, but it can easily be clarified. Both made the statement since they were in Block 50, and it is a fact that my arrival was registered, and announced at Block 46, and that I actually did not go there, out that we visited what was called Little Camp, which was behind Block 46. On that occasion I did not enter Block 46, but I have, I think, I stated the reason for that time.
Q: Could one observe Block 46 from Block 50 where Kogon and Kirchheimer were?
A: No, an other block was in between there, if I remember correctly.
Q: Wallachowsky maintained that when visiting Little Camp you saw the one that was death block, is that correct?
A: No, that is not true. I don't know of any such institution that existed. That is not established that such an institution did exist, and I still don't know of it today.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Flemming, the Tribunal would like to know something about the size of these blocks, how large are they in area, what is their composition, and what is their number — how many people were in those blocks particularly about Block 46 and block 50.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, surely. You heard the question, would you please answer it, witness?
THE WITNESS: The Camp Buchenwald consisted generally of wooden barracks. There were a few stone buildings there, which had two floors. I estimate that they were about fifteen meters long. If they were filled with people, a considerable amount of persons could be housed there. It was a question of how one placed his bed, whether one has a bed, which were on two or three floors, and that, of course, is an open question. Block 50 had no housing facilities. It was only a laboratory. The inmates who worked there were housed in an adjoining room. Block 46 was a hospital and it had better housing facilities than any other of the blocks of the camp. If I recall from my single visit there, there was only one level of beds, there, that is, one row of beds, was there, singly.
I did not see any other block at that time, and I therefore did not know how many rooms it contained. I don't believe that in neither building of the blocks, that patients in any one, could house there more than approximately one-hundred. That, however, is a more estimation on my part, and I believe that Dr. Hoven could tell more, or will be able to tell you more about it.
In the wooden barracks of the camp the inmates were much closer together, especially unfavorable housing facilities were any way near Little Camp; that was the reason why I was asked by Ding to inspect the camp. This led to a report by me which I sent to Chief of the Supreme Building Offices of the SS. I communicated my urgent request to re-organize the building in Buchenwald in order to help that situation. In that camp the inmates were very close together, and were definitely overcrowded.
Q: With reference to Block 46 would you consider that Dr. Morgen's statement was correct, that Block 46 was furnished just as any modern army hospital and that patients were cared for as they would be cared for in any army hospital?
A: The impression which I gained after my short visit there was extremely favorable. The distance from one bed to another was about one meter and a half, that is the customary distance as it is to be found in hospitals. Beds were covered with white lines; on the tables there were table cloths; and I had a very favorable impression in that regard.
Q: How about the furnishings in Block 50? What were the work conditions there?
A: Block 50 was modernly equipped laboratory. It had all the special equipment which could be required. The walls of the laboratory were painted and there was running cold and warm water. The equipment had electrical current as is the case in every well furnished institution. The inmates who were employed there had numerous liberties. In particular it was not necessary for thorn to attend the camp roll calls. Because of danger of infection they received additional nourishment and not one member of Block 50 who was examined here has asserted that he personally fared badly. They were well nourished and had any literature at their disposal they desired and I know that literature of a professional nature, as well as fiction, was sent to them from the university library at Jena.
DR. FLEMMING: Were the questions of the Tribunal answered?
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q: You were just saying that the inmates were well nourished. In that connection I want to point out to you that Kogon testified that the inmates working in Block 50, because of hunger, had prepared the rabbits used for experiments for eating. Is that correct?
A: I am convinced that this testimony is correct and there is really nothing to it. The rabbits are infected starting from the nose; there is only an inflammation in the lung to be registered but never a general infection of the animal. The lung us taken out in order to be used for the production of vaccine. The carrier of typhus reacts very quickly to temperature. By mere boiling every bacteria is killed with absolute certainty. If the meat of that rabbit is thoroughly boiled there is not the least danger of any infection. I may point out that in all countries where there is food legislation and food rationing meat of animals who fell ill of tuberculosis is always admissible for human consumption. That is true of a number of other illnesses.
Q: Thank you. That is sufficient. When did the delivery of vaccines from Buchenwald start?
A: The production started in August 1943, when the first preparations were made. The real large-scale production started at the end of 1943.
Q: What were the amounts of vaccine produced monthly?
A: On the average 30 to 50 and up to 50 liters were produced.
Q: How many portions of vaccinations would you say that was?
A: 50 liters of vaccine represent 25,000 portions.
Q: 50 liters, 25,000 portions. That means that about 25,000 portions of vaccine were delivered monthly?
A: That is right.
Q: Kogon testifies that the inmates sabotaged the production of vaccine and only produced a good vaccine for themselves, that was a small circle, but otherwise produced a product which was not harmful but was not useful either. What do you know about that?
A: This is one of the most peculiar remarks I heard here. If a vaccine is being produced it is being done for the purpose of protecting people in danger against illness and death.
Especially in the case of concentration camp inmates it had to be known how extensive the typhus danger was, not only in the camps but also in the army and the throughout Germany. Especially in Block 50 there were a number of inmates who were transferred from Auschwitz to Buchenwald since they were specialists and had to work there. Auschwitz was one of the largest typhus infected places which we had in Europe. We had greatest difficulties to become master of this epidemic. These typhus specialists who came to Buchenwald-and it is not to be assumed that they did not realize the extensive danger of typhus-were told repeatedly that the reason for the production of vaccines was this danger of typhus. If they now assert that they sabotaged the production of vaccine and produced a preparation which while not harmful was not useful in any way, this, in my opinion, represents an attitude which has nothing to do with the concepts of humanity as is being expressed by the so gentlemen today.
Q: Kogon gave the reason for this sabotaging that one of the specialists in Block 50 had found out that the viruses contained in that vaccine were not Rickettsia Prowazekia but other viruses. Would you please shortly state your opinion whether Rickettsia Prowazekia is recognizable or easily changeable?
A: This observation of Mr. Fleck is quite understandable. There is hardly one bacteria in the field of bacteriology which is as changeable in its exterior for as the typhus virus. Herr Fleck in Cracow and Lemberg was dealing with Rickettsia that were bred in the louse and they naturally looked much different than the Rickettsia which were bred in animal lungs. Those differences are set down repeatedly in literature and it is therefore to be understood quite easily. I should like to revert to the production of the vaccine itself and I must say that we had two types of vaccine at our disposal.
From the point of effectiveness they did not differ but they only differed because of the fact that the electricity worms in Weimar had been damaged because of air attacks and we therefore had no electrical current at our disposal in Buchenwald. That is why our refrigerators discontinued working. Now if vaccine is kept too warm it changes its color but really does nothing to the effectiveness or tolerance. It is only a question of exterior appearance. Dr. Ding designated especially that vaccine which became discolored and failed to designate in any particular way the other kind of vaccine. This, perhaps, may be the reason why two different types of vaccines are being discussed. However, there was no difference in the effectiveness and it is technically not possible because it originates from the same phase of production.
Q: Could you exercise any influence on the distribution of the vaccine?
A: Generally, no. The vaccine was sent to the central depot of the Waffen-SS at Berlin. This was done because all the requests for vaccine and drugs were directed to this central depot by all physicians and it was from there that distribution was carried out. I may point oat that only part of the vaccine, I think a third, was used for purposes of the Waffen-SS, whereas the larger part, about two-thirds of the entire production, was placed at the disposal of the concentration camps and was distributed among inmates for their protection—naturally only in those camps that were endangered by typhus.
Q: I am submitting to the Tribunal, document Mrugowsky 25, which can be found on page 164 of the Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky 26, page 164. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 44. This is an affidavit by Karl Heinrich Wehle, the head of the Main Medical Depot of the Waffen SS. I only submit it for the notice of the Tribunal.
At the same time I refer to Document Mrugowsky 26, which is to be found on page 167, which I already submitted as Mrugowsky Exhibit 6, and I shall quote from page 170, paragraph 7, which so far was not read. This is the affidavit of Dr. Karl Blumenreuther and paragraph 7 reads as follows, and I quote:
I further submit an excerpt from the testimony of Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber which he made on 26 August 1946 before the International Military Tribunal. This can be found in the German transcript of the International Military Tribunal on page 15747. This is Mrugowsky Document No. 27 and can be found on page 173 of the document book. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No, 45. Answering the question:
Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber answered:
Would you define your position to that statement?
A: I do not know how Schreiber can express that opinion, nor do I know whether he is in possession of full knowledge of the results of this work.
I never discussed this question with him and I therefore cannot examine it. That much is clear, however. Schreiber is speaking of a later period of time for the vaccines that were no longer produced were not produced because the experiments of Ding had proven their inferiority. The epidemiological examination of the various vaccines during the war only originates from a later period of time, in particular the years 1943 and 1944. T'he exploitation of these experiences only originates from the last years of the war and it is therefore my opinion that this testimony of Schreiber is incorrect.
Q: I interrupt you and I shall have Exhibit Handloser 14 shown to you, from Handloser Document Book 3. We are here concerned with an excerpt of a scientific thesis by Geheimrat Otto. Do you know Geheimrat Otto?
A: Yes, I know Geheimrat Otto. He is probably the best typhus expert of not only Germany but Europe, who dealt with typhus throughout his life.
Q: From this excerpt you will see that Geheimrat Otto says, still in 1943:
Would you say something on that?
A: Professor Otto is saying here that even in the year 1943 the chicken egg vaccine and the vaccines from lungs of animals were not sufficiently know. That confirms what I have just testified and that is in answer to Dr. Schreiber's statement.
Q: The witness Berhardt Schmidt, who was interrogated here, stated that human experiments were superfluous for the purpose of testing vaccines and that the value of the individual typhus vaccines could have been ascertained through an epidemiological way. What is your point of view in that connection?
A: This is my opinion also. It is my opinion that these tests could, have been carried out in an epidemiological manner. I represented that point of view before Grawitz and Himmler from the very beginning.
Q: You stated already yesterday that when testing this natter in an epidemiological way a large number of persons would have to be vaccinated and to be compared with a large number of persons who were not vaccinated. Would such a long experiment have been possible considering the circumstances as they prevailed during the war?
A: Such a test would have been possible. It was actually introduced by me within the framework of the ministry. It is a matter of course, however, that the results can only be collected at a very late date and can only be exploited at a much later date. In the case of the entire experiment we were concerned with bridging over this space of time.
Q: In carrying out this examination one could have found out that one vaccine has only a very small effectiveness, as was actually found out in the case of the Behring vaccine. In that case would you say that the mortality of persons vaccinated with the inferior vaccine would have been much greater than the entire amount of fatalities as they occurred in Buchenwald? You know that the statement regarding the fatality figures fluctuated between 100 and 120.
A: That could be assumed to be the case with certainty. Comparison is the manner in which all tests are carried out in this field. I shall give you a few examples for that. When Emil von Behring in the year 1890 discovered the diphtheria serum it was at first used by a physician of the Berlin Charity in the case of diphtheria infected children. He treated about 1200 children suffering from diphtheria with that serum. He registered a mortality rate in the case of these children, in spite of the treatment, of approximately 22 percent. Just as many children did not receive the serum but were treated in a different manner In this group the mortality rate was double, approximately 44 percent. These 240 or 250 children who died and who were in that control group certainly could have been saved if they had been giver the blessing of that diphtheria serum. But that w as in reality the purpose of that test and one had to take into account that a larger ratio of mortalities would result in the control group and that then the value of the serum would be recognized.
Q: I think that this example will suffice. In that case you are really admitting that an objection against experiments in Buchenwald could not be justified?
A: During the war I did not work on any disease as ardently as on typhus. I treated thousands of patients who fell ill of typhus and examined them. I believe that in the case of such an experience one gains some knowledge of the disease. I often considered that question and I hold the opinion that my objection at the time was perhaps not justified by events. On the other hand it is my opinion that in the case of every task one has to keep the question in mind whether one is In a position to execute that task. I must admit even today that in spite of the success of the experiments, which cannot be denied, I would act similarly in yet another position and would assume the same attitude as I assured at that time.
Even today I would not be prepared to carry out any such experiments personally or have them carried out upon my responsibility, although a success would cone about undoubtedly.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it seems to me that Dr. Mrugowsky has ably covered the typhus field now; we have heard all about vaccines of all sorts and the theory of typhus; the question here is whether or not he artificially injected anyone with virulent virus, one of the main reasons for him being here. I think we could curtail this examination considerably if we consider that this background material now is sufficient.
DR. FLEMMING: The question which I just out was the last question in the typhus field. I am now going over to the yellow fever vaccine, which is described in the Ding Diary.
THE PRESIDENT: While there was some testimony on the part of the witness on the stand possibly not particularly relevant, the Prosecution introduced the Ding Diary in evidence in its entirety and it is pertinent for the defendants to attack the reliability of the diary any way they can. In any event, counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky has now finished, according to his statement, this particular phase of the evidence. Counsel may proceed.
Q: You know the entry in Ding's diary dated the 10th of January 1943 regarding the yellow fever tests. Did you know of these experiments?
A: Yes, I knew of these experiments. I knew about the test of the vaccine. They really were not experiments. They were tests of vaccines. I suggested that to Grawitz and he ordered it.
Q: Far what reason did you initiate that test?
A: I initiated that test because at that tine new German divisions, among them divisions of the Waffen SS, were being committed to the Africa Corps. The intended campaign of the Africa Corps was to aim at Dacar and would have landed us into yellow fever danger spots. Therefore, in the framework of all other preparations of this campaign we carried out preparations concerning protective vaccination against yellow fever. The entire preparation was in the hands of Grawitz who was concerned with planning.
Q: Was any danger to the vaccinated persons connected with the yellow fever tests?
A: No. This vaccine is produced by virus which is no longer in a position to bring about pathogenesis in the human being. In Germany we have no yellow fever virus at our disposal which is pathogenic to human beings. This vaccine, however, is in a position to bring about immunization to yellow fever. A danger to one's self is out of the question from the start.
Q: Was the yellow fever vaccine a new vaccine or was its tolerance and effectiveness known?
A: The vaccine was produced according to a proven French process. All colonial troops in central Africa and large Parts of the population of Central America were vaccinated with the same vaccine. The entire expeditionary corps of America which entered central Africa had to be vaccinated with a similar vaccine. It is a natter of course that throughout the times millions of such vaccinations were carried out and not one danger to one's self became know.
Q: Why did you initiate a test of that vaccine if it was so well known?
A: We had no personal experience about that vaccine. Dr. Schmidt testified here that it was difficult to transport because it has to be kept cold and frozen. A special transport vessel had been developed for that purpose and in order to overcome the technical difficulties in dealing with that vessel it was necessary that the physicians become acquainted with the technicalities concerned with that vaccine.
Q: Were infections carried out in order to carry out the effectiveness of that vaccine?
A: No, I already stated that we had no pathogenic virus in Germany and, therefore, could not carry out any infections. In this case only two or five cubic centimeters of blood were drown in order that in this manner the immunity might be discovered for experiments on man.
Q: Did you get reports from Ding about results of these tests?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether volunteers were used for these tests?
A: Yes, only volunteers were used. Ding states that in his own declaration, which is No. 275, Exhibit 283, and he says that he knows of a list and that in such cases many hundreds of volunteers could be found for such vaccines since they did not have to work for four weeks and since they received better nourishment as a result.
Q: I now turn to the gas gangrene experiments. When examining the defendants Handloser, Rostock, Schroeder, Genzken, and the witness Bernhard Schmidt, we have heard to what extent gas gangrene became prevalent at the front. I refer you to the Document 578, Prosecution Exhibit No. 248, which is before you in Document Book 12. I shall have it submitted to you. Would you please tell the Tribunal whether, in connection with gas gangrene, there was an extreme necessity in concentration camps and in the army in order to discover protective means to combat this disease?
A: It was pointed out frequently that no infection can be taken so seriously in the surgical field as the infection by gas gangrene since the mortality in case of these injuries was very high. In concentration camps, as Noeling told me, we often had cases of gas gangrene.
Therefore, the Asid Works suggested to apply vaccine in the same manner as in the case of diphtheria. This was carried out by these works sometimes in cases of tetanus. Such vaccine against gas gangrene was produced by Behring Works and was applied on students at Marburg University at first, about which a publication is available. I received a small part of this gas gangrene toxin in order to protect people in danger. This gas gangrene toxin I gave to Noeling and he used it at Buchenwald. The chart is available about persons where this vaccine was used and this is to be found in Document Book 12, and it becomes evident from that that there is even an increase in temperature in the case of that vaccination and that we are here concerned with a completely harmless project which has nothing at all to do with an infection.
Q: Dr. Ding in an affidavit, Document 257, Exhibit 283, in Document Book 12, which is before you, stated that at the Military Medical Academy a conference took place on the question of gas gangrene serum. What do you know about that?
A: It is correct that such a conference had actually taken place. Whenever gas gangrene occurred a large amount of gas gangrene serum had to be used for treatment in order to insure success. That does not only include ten or fifteen cubic centimeters but four to eight hundred cubic centimeters which is introduced into the patient in the course of a few days. In Germany all serums which are obtained from animals, mostly horses, in order to maintain them better, receive phenol and carbolic acid, and that 0.5% — i.e., in the amount of 400 cubic centimeters I added a concentration of two cubic centimeters phenol acid. This amount is, of course, far above the tolerance in the case of human beings. Carbolic acid is one of the strongest acids we possess. When treating people with gas gangrene serums a number of cases of death had occurred. It was discussed whether we were concerned with cases of serum death which came as a result of the serum or whether we were concerned with the phenol addition. Ding and I participated in that conference with others.
THE PRESIDENT: It is now time for recess. The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 Monday morning.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 31 March 1947.)
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