1947-03-31, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

JOACKIM MRUGOWSKY (Resumed) - DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the Defendant Oberheuser): Mr. President, I ask permission to make an application on the part of Defendant Oberheuser regarding the trial. Earlier in the trial the Court ruled that Oberheuser's case, because of its connections with the others, should be treated at the same time with those of Gebhardt and Fischer. This was not possible because in the meantime Oberheuser fell ill. I ask you now to permit Oberheuser's case, or at least her interrogation, to take place after the case of Defendant Mrugowsky is concluded. Let me add that the Prosecution has agreed to this suggestion.

MR. HARDY: The prosecution has no objection to this procedure, Your honor, and we think it night expedite matters for Dr. Seidl if defendant Oberheuser comes on after Defendant Mrugowsky.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there any objection to this procedure on the part of any defense counsel? There being none, the case of the Defendant Oborheuser will be taken up following the case of Defendant Mrugowsky.

DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Mr. President.

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: Before the recess I read Dy. Morgen's affidavit saying that there was a hole in the floor to hold poisons. Would you make a statement on ti is subject?

A: This testimony on the part of the competent investigating physician proved that the camp itself had considerable supplied of poison. Even if the contents of these boxes were destroyed, there is at least reasons to assume that later another supply of poison was collected, from which supply Ding might have got his poison.

Q: You know the affidavit by Schiedlowsky, the camp doctor at Buchenwald, Document NO-508, Prosecution Exhibit 224, in document book No. 10. Dr. Schiedlowsky stated therein that Ring asked him to come to the bunker to attend an experiment with poison. According to his affidavit, he reached the bunker only after the experimental subject had been given poison; he did not know in what form that took place or what the poison was. Please tell us whether the symptoms that Schiedlowsky observed in his brief presence there correspond to the symptoms that you observed in the case of Acenitin.

A: The symptoms that Schiedlowsky observed were apparently different. Let me mention that the symptoms involving the stomach, such as vomiting and diarrhea occur in cases of most strong poisons, From this symptom alone you cannot conclude that the two Poisons are identical; but Schiedlowsky says that the effects occurred relatively rapidly, in other words more rapidly than in Sachsonhausen, where two tours elapsed before death. In this case death occurred rather rapidly. Also Schiedlowsky says that one, person became unconscious, aconitum poisoning does not load to unconsciousness.

Q: In other words, you conclude from this that the poison that ding used was not aconitum?

A: In my opinion he must have used different poison.

Q: The prosecution has accused a number of the defendants of participating and responsibility in poison experiments; were any of the defendants involved in this aconitum poison?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever speak with any of the co-defendants before their arrest on the subject of experiment with poison or effects of poisoning?

A: No.

Q: How, I come to Dr. Kogon who frequently spoke of an experiment by Dr. Ding with a phosphorus caoutchove incendiary bomb, and he said that you ordered these experiments?

A: I did not k ow who ordered this experiment; I found out about it only from the report which I had drawn up after the experiment had been terminated. This report has been put in evidence here as a document from which it can be seen that animal experiments were also carried out. I assume that this did not happen in block 46, but in block 50, which was under my supervision. I went with the report to Grawitz and asked him if he knew any more about this matter. I asked him if I was correct in my assumption that some of the experiments took place in block 50 and to tell. Dr. Ding to confine himself to his block 46 in 7 such matters in the futures which was directly under Grawitz. Grawitz answered there upon that did not make any difference one way or the other and I should not be so fussy. I also know that after a few weeks Ding called me up and asked me for the report, which was in my hands. I did not have it any longer at that time as I had given it to Grawitz and it was in his files where it belonged.

Q: It was also testified that the experimental subjects had serious pains and had wounds from 2 to 2½ cms. deep, which led to the formation of scars; I show you now the Prosecution document NO-579, Prosecution Exhibit No. 288, and ask you to make a statement regarding this document and regarding Dr. Kogon's testimony?

(The Document is handed to the witness)

A: The first part of this Document deals with a discussion of the rabbit experiments.

In the second, however, there are pictures of experiments on human beings. These pictures show the place on the forearm where the experiment was made. Kogen said that this burning was done in such a way that the mass of phosphorus was during for quite a while. The document, however, proves exactly the contrary and that the length of time during which the matter was burning was not long, but the period between the time when the mixture was applied and the time it was lighted was long; that is possibly the reason for this misunderstanding. Moreover in the description of the individual cases, it can be seen that evening on the 29th of December, in other words four days after the experiments, the burn was almost healed, or had greatly reduced in size, and in one case there was still an open wound of one half square centimeter but there is no mention of any deeper wounds, but only mention of purely superficial epidermal wounds. There is constant mention of the fact that the wounds healed over nicely and in some cases the wound was completely healed four days after the experiments. Wounds 2½ cm. deep, or large scars could not have been the case, and that testimony of Kogon is false. In this case let me point out that he was not sneaking from his own knowledge, because he says regarding the first explanation of these burning experiments that he had seen these experimental subjects, and then in that same interrogation he later says that was not the case. In ether words, he is reporting what he has heard and not what he knows at first hand.

Q: I am submitting to the Tribunal Mrugowsky Document NO 56 of the Document book 189, and it will be Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 50. I should like to read number two on page 190:

Treatment of Phosphorus Burns with 'R 17 '.

The dropping of phosphorus incendiary bombs, made it necessary to find an adequate method of treatment. As the copper-sulphate solution hitherto in use did not give satisfactory results, the firm of Dr. Madaus in Drosden, looked for a different solvent and produced a liquid Carbon Tetrachloride which was called 'R 17'. The efficacy of R 17 had been proved by means of experiments on rabbits carried out by the firm of Dr. Madaus.

After the completion of these rabbit tests, Dr. Madaus asked Hoeherer SS and Polizoifuehrer von Weyrach, Dresden, to come and see the tests. As my branch office was in the building of Gruppenfuehrer von Weyrach, he asked me to accompany him to the firm of Madaus in my capacity as a doctor and to watch these tests. That was in the autumn of 1943. At the request of the Gruppenfuehrer von Weyrach and the firm of Madaus, I reported to Reichsarzt SS and polizei the results achieved by the firm of Madaus in the treatment of phosphorous burns and suggested that the drug R 17 he introduced into the air-raid precaution dispensaries. Grawitz promised to have another test made.

Some time afterwards he sent Dr. Ding to Dresden for this purpose in his capacity as health expert, and instructed me to sake arrangements for Ding to see the results achieved there by the firm of Madaus with R 17. I arranged this. Ding came to Dresden and saw the above mentioned tests in my presence, on the premises of the Madaus firm. After that he declared that, on the orders of the Reichsarzt SS in Buchenwald, he would test the efficacy of the drug on rabbits. He requested the firm of Madaus to put the drug R 17 at his disposal. immediately after inspecting the firm of Madaus no left Dresden.

I also knew that Dr. Ding asked the office of the Hoeherer SS und Polizeifierer to procure for him the filling of an English incendiary bomb, which as far as I know was done through the police president of Leipzig. Dr. Ding had the drug R 17 and the incendiary bomb collected.

I also know that Ding made a report on his experiments. I know this because Or Ding asked the office in Dresden severed times, in writing and by telephone, if they had this report, as he could not find it. It was supposed to be a report with pictures. I do not know if the report wont through my office, as I was in Dresden only one day a week. At the time when Ding was looking for the report it was not in my office. I assume, therefore, that he sent it direct to the firm of Madaus, as they were interested in the results of the test.

When, after a considerable time, I had still not hoard from the Reichsarzt if the drug R 17 was to be introduced into the air-raid precaution dispensaries, I asked the Reichsarzt about it at a meeting. He then declared that the drug would not be introduced, as it only possessed phosphorus-dissolving properties, but did not directly contribute to the healing of the burns. However, a drug was in preparation elsewhere that combined both qualities and this would be introduced.

I submit further the last paragraph of Dr, Morgen's affidavit, Document 23, Page 162, Mrugowsky No 23, Exhibit 26. Dr. Morgen says here:

While I made my observations in the Block 46 I paid repeated surprise visits to Block 46, in order to inspect the running of the Block. Once, when I paid a surprise visit to Block 46 examinations of treatment of wounds caused by phosphor incendiaries were carried out.

The moment I arrived, a big strong prisoner came laughingly into the room. On each of his two upper arms there were applied on a space, which was about 1 cm wide and 5 cm long some parts of the contents of a phosphor incendiary. This spot on both upper arms was treated with various ointments. during the conference with Dr. Ding I was informed that the experimental persons volunteered for the experiment. They received the diet for sick persons, a box of cigarettes and one month they did not have to work. In the case of the prisoner whose treatment I witnessed by chance, I had the same impression that he was a volunteer.

It was often said then experiments were carried out in Buchenwald by a Danish doctor. Dr. Werman with artificial glands; Dr. Kogon's testimony proves clearly that those experiments were not done in Blocks 4-6 01 50 but in the camp hospital by the camp physician and Dr. Werman and not by Dr. Ding. That is Page 1224 of the German record which states there were two fatalities, but Kogon stated it was his opinion that they died for other reasons, what can you say to this?

A: I never received such an order, nor do 1 know that Ding received one. On the other hand, Ding told me once that in the carp hospital in Buchenwald a new harmon gland preparation had been used by Dr. Werman or was to be used, and that Dr. Werman had Himmler's personal protection.

Q: Did you receive any reports on this matter or any written records?

A: No.

Q: Were you told before by any other office of the intention of carrying out any experiments with hormones on homosexuals?

A: No, nor was there any reason that I should be, because the camp hospital was part of the concentration camp and was not under my supervision.

Q: Did you ever concern yourself with the effect of hormones on human beings?

A: No.

Q: I now come to the question of bacteriological warfare. You know the Prosecution Exhibit 324, Document NO-114, a letter that the prosecution put in from Grawitz to Himmler. How did you happen to compose a report on this matter?

A: This letter was drawn up on a request from Dr. Blome. I drew up the report and submitted it to my chief, Grawitz, who passed it on to Himmler with the accompanying letter which we have here. It concerns itself with defends against bacteriological warfare and with various organizational matters involving research. The reasons for this were the following. Even in the first World War the suspicion had been stated that individual acts of sabotage against the civilian population and soldiers had been undertaken with the help of bacteria. This assertion was looked into by various persons without any proof being produced. If something of this nature occurs during war, or when anything of this sort happened, the suspicion is easily expressed that it is artificially created. I heard about this possibility for the first time in 1942. At Christmas of 1941 there was a severe typhoid epidemic in a Parisian soldiers' home with about eight hundred cases, and the source of this was not clarified. This led us to the suspicion that it was sabotage with bacteria cultures.

Q: Did Dr. Ding examine captured bacteriological matter?

A: That was the second case. Russian parachutists were found to have an unknown material on them which was supposed to be some sort of bacteria. However, this turned out to be not bacteria but a means of combatting dysentery.

Then in 1942 or 1943 many acts of sabotage were carried out against German officials in Posen and Lublin with the help of living bacteria cultures by the Polish resistance movement. Waiters in German restaurants received syringes with a fluid bacteria culture and they added it to the noon meal or to the beer of their guests. Several persons so infected died.

This led to a criminal investigation and a trial. This matter was cleared up very well indeed. There were confessions on the part of the defendants and there was then the necessary verdict by the court. I myself found out about this matter by seeing a box in which there were a number of bottles. These bottles were called "furniture polish" but they contained fluid bacteria cultures. I could ascertain that these cultures were typhoid cultures, among others, and cholera. These ascertainments on my part were corroborated by others. I found out by another case in the spring of 1944.

Q: I think that will be enough. What was your attitude toward the possibility of biological warfare?

A: As a bacteriologist, of course, I concerned myself at the beginning of the war with this question also, particularly since for years previous to that I had concerned myself with the advent and disappearance of epidemics. I tested these experiences of mine once again in my own mind and came to the conclusion that the laws determining epidemics were not so well-known that we could bring about epidemics artificially. Moreover, if bacteria is used in the war, there is always the great danger that this weapon will turn its effects against your own troops because, as we know, bacteria do not draw any distinction between friend and foe. Consequently. I am not of the opinion that active bacteriological warfare could be carried on.

Q: If this was your point of view, why didn't you draw up a report regarding the defensive measures against bacteriological warfare?

A: I knew that in foreign countries, particularly in France, this matter was being discussed very actively and that there were many publications on the subject.

There was the possibility that my point of view would, be proved later in practice to be wrong and although I maintained my point of view I believed that I should see to it that if events took a different turn the civilian population would not be taken by surprise. Therefore, I made suggestions for defending against such a case.

Q: Did you ever have anything to do theoretically or in experiments with the active waging of a aggressive bacteriological warfare?

A: No.

Q: I come now to Point Four of the indictment. You are charged with being a member of the SS, which is a criminal organization. When did you become a member of the Party?

A: 1930.

Q: Why?

A: At the beginning I described or said that I myself was pretty badly off economically at that time, and according to the Party program of the Nazi Party I believed and hoped that this party would be able to free Germany from its economic distress of that period.

Q: Did you carry on any political activity?

A: In the Party itself I was not active politically. However, in the year 1930 for one semester as a student I was leader of a Nazi student organization in the University of Halle.

Q: When did you become a member of the SS?

A: 1931.

Q: Why?

A: It is very difficult to say today after the SS has been declared to be a criminal organization and we have found out about all these dreadful things that took place and which led to the verdict on the part of the IMT. It is, I say, hard to make clear that other reasons must have motivated us to enter the SS at that time. In 1931 the basic principle behind the SS was that this organization was to form a sort of new guard, and some of the main virtues of the SS men were defined as honor, fidelity, reliability, and truthfulness. The later enmity toward the church did not exist at that time, and several years later it did not exist either because in the year 1934 I was married in a church in SS uniform, and there were many of my comrades present in the church at that time.

You cannot compare the SS of that time with the SS that we have found out about subsequently. I entered the SS at that time because I believed that I could best serve my people in this organization in the economic reconstruction and particularly in my capacity as a doctor.

Q: Please describe your SS activities briefly.

A: In 1934 I was Untersturmfuehrer [Lieutenant]. In 1937 I entered the Waffen SS Verfuegungstruppe as Sturmbannfuehrer [Major]. That corresponds to the rank of medical major. I had this rank for five years. Then gradually I rose in rank and finally was Oberfuehrer [Colonel], which corresponds to the rank of a colonel in the medical service of the army.

Q: You were a member of the Sicherheitsdienst [Security Service]. Why?

A: In 1934 to 1936 I was a member of the Sicherheitsdienst, the Security Service, for the following reason. After our accession to power we expected that the goals that the Party had stated were its goals were to be carried out, but it soon turned out that between What had been promised and what actually now existed there was a rather considerable difference. This called forth unrest in the population. At that time we had acted in good faith and believed that the competent government agencies knew nothing of this unrest. We considered it our duty at that time to clarify this matter and to inform the competent offices of the way things really were.

For this reason I inserted myself into the intelligence Service along with several of my comrades.

Q: What was your activity in the Security Service (SO) at that time?

A: At that time the Sieherheitsdienst was not part of the police. Its activities were limited to drawing up general reports regarding the attitude and moods of the population, of cultural and economic matters, and so forth. Observing of any individual evidence — in other words, any police spying — was not part of the activity of the Sicherheitsdienst.

Q: Why did you leave the Security Service?

A: In June of 1936 Himmler became chief of the German Police. Thus the German Police, and particularly the political police, and the Security Service, received great mutual assistance; they exchanged personnel, and many tasks were united. I was afraid that pretty soon I would be altogether involved in the police. That was not part of my original intention, nor my wishes, nor my predisposition. Therefore, I made efforts from that moment on to leave the Security Service and to follow my chosen profession.

Q: When you left the Sickerheitsdienst, you, however, remained in the SS; why?

A: I know the custom of Himmler and the chief of the Sieherheitsdienst too well to believe that I could simply stop all SS activity right away. The only chance I saw to pursue lay career as bacteriologist and hygienist was to do so within the SS and it was a happy accident that just at that time such personnel was being sought in the newly organized Waffen-SS. Consequently, I remained in the SS and transferred to the Waffen-SS because I saw this as my only opportunity to dissolve my relations with the Security Service. That was in 1936.

Q: What did you do when you left the Sicherheitsdienst?

A: I became active medical officer in the Waffen-SS?

Q: You left the church?

A: No.

DR. FLEMMING: I submit to the court first of all the Mrugowsky Marriage Certificate, and the Baptismal Certificates of his children — Document 46, page 202 of the Document Book. I submit it as Mrugowsky Exhibit 51. The Baptismal Certificates of his two children are Document 47, pages 203 and 204. I put them in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit 52. I submit, further, Document Mrugowsky 49 — an affidavit by Dr. Wilhelm Karl Grotepass, on page 205 of the Document Book. This is Mrugowsky Exhibit 53. From this affidavit of Grotepass I read a few passages. First of all he says how he came to the Hygiene Institute, and then says:

In my opinion Mrugowsky was, though not bound to the church, a deeply religious person with a high ethical conception of his medical profession, a fact very frequently observed by me during lengthy conversations with him. The Institute, because of its many female employees, had an almost entirely civilian setup. Mrugowsky insisted very strictly on just one thing, namely, that work had to be performed conscientiously and diligently. Over and over again Mrugowsky would spur us on to a critical review of our own work.

Since for many months 20 concentration camp prisoners were at work in our establishment repairing bomb damages, I feel that I really can give an opinion on the treatment of the prisoners by Mrugowsky. The prisoners enjoyed working in the Institute, and it was for them a special punishment when, by order of the camp management, they could for several days not work for us. Mrugowsky, for example, often praised the work and character of the prisoner Wessel who came from Dortmund. Wessel in turn frequently praised Mrugowsky for his good treatment. Mrugowsky tried to have Wessel employed as caretaker in the Institute. He once talked with me about it, that it was too bad that in spite of all his efforts he could not get a release from the concentration camp for this man. Since at first the prisoners had only trenches available for a shelter during the many air raids, Mrugowsky ordered that at the very first warning of an attack the prisoners were to be marched to a bomb-proof bunker which was within a walking distance of about 15 minutes.

I have frequently observed how Mrugowsky saw to it that the prisoners got started early enough.

Then leaving Berlin at the end of April 1945 we stopped for some time at a place called Wittstock. After two days several columns of prisoners marched through Wittstock. As soon as Mrugowsky noticed that, some prisoners from our Institute were in the column he spontaneously called out, 'These are our people.

We must absolutely give these fellows something to eat. He saw to it at once that food and drink was brought on and also gave the men a good portion along for the march after he had inquired in detail about their well being. From a discussion with Dr. Hansdieter Ellenbeck, Stubaf. at that time, I know — for example — that Mrugowsky had proposed to put vitamin preparations at the disposal of the prisoners at Buchenwald among whom, for unknown reasons, sporadic edema appeared in spite of all efforts.

In closing I should like to remark that, from discussions at the Berlin Institute, for example, I know that Mrugowsky refused to have concentration camp inmates used for vaccinations with typhoid fever, para-typhus and dysentery serums for the determination of the occurring titro, because he maintained the standpoint that such series of experiments had better be carried out on young people in military training camps.

/s/ Grotepass

Now, I submit an affidavit by Dr. Jung, Mrugowsky Document 50, page 208 of the Document Book, which will be Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 54. I bring this to the attention of the Tribunal, and should only like to read one paragraph from page 209:

In April 1945 the prisoners from the Sachsenhausen camp were transported to Schwerin. At that time we were about 10,000 men.

— I beg your pardon — Document No. 50 is Wessel's affidavit. Exhibit 54, page 208, is Wessel's affidavit. And from this I should like to read the following — on page 28, the next to the last paragraph:

The food we received from the camp was very bad and entirely insufficient and, therefore, I approached Mrugowsky several times and asked him for additional food for the prisoners. Upon his instigation we then received at noon an additional warm meal from the kitchen of the Hygiene Institute. About 15 to 22 prisoners were working there.

It was a daily occurrence that prisoners were beaten by the SS guards, and I asked Mrugowsky, therefore, to put an end to this state of affairs, so unworthy of human beings. Mrugowsky thereupon forbade the continuance of such beatings in the work commando.

Only when Mrugowsky was not present did it still happen that SS guards beat prisoners.

Mrugowsky was always human and friendly towards us prisoners. Whenever we greeted by taking off our hats, he always acknowledged it and frequently exchanged a few words with me.

In April 1945 the prisoners from the Sachsenhausen camp were transported to Schwerin. At that time we were about 10,000 men. While resting on the way in the brick-yard at Wittstock, Mrugowsky came out and called for me. He inquired about the prisoners of the former work commando and had then all called together. He distributed cigarettes, bread and pumpkin among us. We were very happy about this because we were terribly hungry.

There were also foreigners in the commando, especially two or three Russians and they, too, spoke favorably of Mrugowsky. He was one of the very few who always was correct and humane towards us prisoners.

I submit further the affidavit by Dr. Seeker, Mrugowsky 53, on page 210.

MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, it seems to me that in accordance with the rulings of the Tribunal during the course of the second day of the examination of this defendant, that we could dispense with reading these character affidavits now and proceed with the examination of the witness, and complete the examination of the witness in a reasonable time — This witness has been on the stand now for nearly three days, and these affidavits seem to me unrelated to the testimony of the witness, and can be put in at a later time.

DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, my interrogation is almost completed. The reason it has been so long is that despite four requests the prosecution has not yet said what charges against individual defendants it withdraws, nor has it stated which of the various counts which are not in the indictment are charged against the individual —

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.

DR. FLEMMING: I put in now the affidavit Kenber and 3 associates, Mrugowsky 57.

It is to be found on page 196 of the Document Book, I might remark that I received this without having asked for it.

THE PRESIDENT: What number did you assign to Document — is that 53? — the affidavit of Seeker?

DR. FLEMMING: 54 was the last one, which is Document 50. You mean Wessel's affidavit, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. FLEMMING: Exhibit 54.

THE PRESIDENT: According to the notes I have the affidavit of Wessel is No. 54. What number did you assign. Is that the number?

DR. FLEMMING: That is correct, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: What number did you assign to the next offer you made, Seeker? S-E-E-K-E-R-?

DR. FLEMMING: Yes, sir, Seeker. It precedes the next number 55, Exhibit No. 55, Document No. 53; on page 210, from or by Seeker. This affidavit is simply brought to the Tribunal's attention. Then as the next document we have the affidavit by Kemper, Mrugowsky's No. 57; Exhibit No. 56. This is an affidavit by various members of the Second Medical Company of the SS Supply troops, which had worked under Mrugowsky until August 1940. I shall read only the last page, the 2nd Ambulance Company.

MR. HARDY: May I ask for the official number of this document? I ask the defense counsel instead of being the signature of one, what is this?

DR. FLEMMING: It is signed in Mogsburg from the camp leader.

MR. HARDY: No objection to it.

DR. FLEMMING: I read from page 200 — rather pages 199 and 200:

From Oct. 1939 until August 1940 we have been members of the 2nd Ambulance Company of the SS Verfuegungstruppe, the commander of the company being the then Stubaf. Dr. Dr. Mrugowsky. Our company has been in charge of a great number of field dressing stations during the campaign in France, Belgium and Holland. We had to render medical treatment to wounded German men as well as to English and French soldiers. Upon the order of Dr. Mrugowsky, all these men were taken care of indiscriminatingly as to their respective nationality. We should emphasize that Dr. Mrugowsky in performing his duties as physician did not only comply with and live up to the various provisions and orders of the International Red Gross about all of which we had received instructions, but that he went much farther in the performance of his duties in manner most worthy of admiration without taking heed for his own health or safety.

Upon his order, all the wounded men that were delivered to our dressing station in a motley army of our own and of enemy soldiers were scrupulously classified for treatment exclusively according to the severity of each case.

While we had become familiar with his Unselfishness and his human attitude as a comrade from the very first day of the organization of the company we had additionally ample opportunity during the campaign in the West to learn of his character as a physician when he expected the physicians and the other medical personnel under his command to do their duty to the point of self-sacrifice to save the lives of the wounded. Evidence of his own non-sparing efforts may be gathered from the fact that he declined to be kept — posted by other on the situation in the firing-line out that he used to organize personally and without regard to his own safety the expeditions removal from the firing-line of the severally and most severally wounded men, not in the least way discriminating thereby between friend and enemy, an attitude which was evidenced by the kind of those delivered to the station and by which he lived up to his standards as a physician where from the never deviated: that any patient is a patient. While in a therapeutics his manners towards the wounded were representative of the highest standards the moving care of Dr. Mrugowsky in matters of food, clean linen and tobacco-rendered undiscriminatingly to all that happened to be entrusted to him — calls for further attention.

The undersigners as motor-drivers and sanitary personnel belonged to the above mentioned unit

— The following four signatures of and these men were internees of this camp who sent in this affidavit unsolicited.

DR. FLEMMING: I now submit Dr. Jung's affidavit as Mrugowsky's No. 52, found on page 213, Your Honor. That is as Mrugowsky's No. 52 put into evidence as Mrugowsky's No. 57, page 213, Document No. 52, Exhibit No. 57, which I brought to the Tribunal's attention.

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: What was your financial status?

A: I was paid as a soldier, or as an official doctor.

Q: Did you draw any material benefit from your membership in the SS, or Party?

A: No, never.

Q: Now I come to the point one, namely, conspiracy. Please tell who of the other co-defendants you knew at all closely?

A: Of all the defendants I know only three. That is, Dr. Gensken, my chief collaborator for many years, and of course, whom I knew very well. Otherwise, Dr. Poppendick I knew from many conversations, because we had officially known each other. Finally, another, Professor Rose, because he also is a Hygienist, as I am, and if there were any technical discussions that referred to the use of soldiers on the front, we saw each other several times. Now I have had slight acquaintance with nine others of the defendants. Professor Handloser was to whom I twice spoke, and whom I saw several times when he had the chairmanship of the conference. Secondly, Karl Brandt with whom I had one discussion and when this drinking-water committee was founded, and that was the only time I ever saw him. Third, Professor Rostock, who was the deacon of our medical faculty in Berlin, 15. I saw him when I requested to be appointed as a professor. Schroeder I know only by sight. Professor Gebhardt, although he is an officer of the SS membership, I spoke with only twice, once in the field, 1941, I believe, and once previously in a corridor at one of the consulting conferences. Then I had two conversations with Blome, once in his office, and once at mine on a matter of information when he was interested in my institute, that was the reason he was there, and then I knew Sievers with whom I had two discussions, once in my office, and once at his office, which you can find out from his files. Further I had nothing to do with him. Rudolph Brandt I saw as long as it takes to shake handstand finally, Dr. Hoven, just before he was interred.

The others in the dock I saw for the first time in Nurmberg, here.

Q: What did you talk about to Professor Rose?

A: Individual questions of troop hygiene.

Q: This is my last question now. On the report of Mrugowsky's No. 10, Exhibit No. 20, the report on the first typhus experiment series. This report is that of request of Dr. Conti to Grawitz, chief of the hygienic institute of the SS, to the Robert Koch Institute, of the typhus research office of the OKH in Cracow and the Behring Works. This is the series in which the vaccine was tested in internees in Buchenwald. Is that not true that these officials were acting in a common plan to carry out this typhus experiment?

A: In my opinion this document proves exactly opposite. Of those to whom this report was sent, and had part in this matter, I had not known anything of the intention to carrying out these experiments on human beings, and, then Grawitz order would have made no sense, and then to me to recast the Ding report in the way that you have it. Also referring to files 29 December 1941, there was one discussion there on the epidemiological testing of the various typhus vaccine that can be seen from Carl Doenitz file case. Grawitz tried to prevent this through this report with those who received it subsequently to find out in detail how these experiments were carried out. I don't think there could be a clearer reputation of conspiracy than provided by this report.

DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, that concludes the direct examination of the defendant Mrugowsky.

THE PRESIDENT: We will recess.

(A recess was taken to 1330 hours)