1947-04-02, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel will proceed.

JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY — Resumed EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. MERKEL:

Q: Professor, in order to review your last answer very briefly, it was not so at that time the days of the infection and the number of dead were expressly discussed?

A: No, they were not.

Q: Then consequently the fact that artificial infection of human beings was carried out was not mentioned?

A: No, certainly not.

Q: And I believe you did state that Dr. Genzken was not to be informed of all details of the tests, or he was to be informed merely as to the contents of Ding's report?

A: The contents of Ding's report, and the effectiveness of the vaccines themselves, in that connection, of course, the report was complete, and I don't believe the medical chief needed to know any more than that.

Q: Under whose control was the Dr. Ellenbeck Laboratory, which in the winter of 1943 was set up in the SS Hospital in Berlin?

A: It was under the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS, therefore, it was under me.

DR. MERKEL: Thank you. I have no further questions.

DR. WEISGERBER: Dr. Weisgerber for the defendant Sievers.

BY DR. WEISGERBER:

Q: Professor, in your direct examination you already testified that the doctor in charge of the health system in the concentration camp was Dr. Lolling?

A: Yes.

Q: Now on the basis of any conferences, or on the basis of any other knowledge, can you tell us anything about this; that on the basis of general orders in connection with the measures against epidemics pre tective vaccination was ordered for concentration Natzweiler camps in fact, because at certain times a typhus epidemic had prevailed in this concentration camp?

A: There was a general order to all chief doctors in camps that when typhus appeared in a concentration camp, all inmates of the concentration camp had to be vaccinated. I myself had Lolling issue this order, and, therefore, I know from my own experience that this order was actually issued.

Q: The necessary vaccine was not adequate, was not sufficiently available? Do you know whether Dr. Lolling tried to do anything about this scarcity?

A: It is true that for the many hundreds, thousands of people there was not always immediately at hand enough vaccine available. There was not typhus in every camp, there were only a few of them, but generally the largest ones, and frequently the institute had notice when a vaccination was to be carried out, and the vaccine was not available in large enough quantities. It is possible that Lolling made an active attempt to obtain vaccine from somewhere.

DR. WEISGERBER: Thank you. I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: No further questions by the defense counsel. The Prosecution may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Dr. Mrugowsky, in your position as Chief of Amt 16 in the SS Fuehrungs-Hauptamt, that is, prior to the reorganization in 1943, your immediately superior was Dr. Karl Genzken, is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Now after the reorganization in 1943, you were no longer subordinated to Dr. Genzken, but you became subordinate to Dr. Grawitz, is that right?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Now in your position as Chief of Amt 16, and Genzken, the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS was under your control was it not?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Dr. Ding was a member of the staff of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS, wasn't he?

A: That is correct, for a certain part of Ding's activity.

Q: How long was Ding connected with the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS?

A: Until the collapse.

Q: Now, I assume that you contend that the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS did not set up the experimental station at Buchenwald, is that right?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Did Dr. Genzken set up an experimental station at Buchenwald.

A: No, Dr. Grawitz.

Q: Do you recall on October 25, 1946, during the course of an interrogation when I asked you whether or not Dr. Genzken had anything to do with the setting up of an institute at Buchenwald, that you replied that Dr. Genzken was instrumental in forming the Buchenwald Institute, do you recall that?

A: I certainly did not say it in that form.

Q: Who placed Dr. Ding in charge of the experimental station at Buchenwald?

A: Grawitz.

Q: Did I hear you say that Heinrich Himmler had something to do with the appointment of Ding as Chief of the experimental station at Buchenwald?

A: Yes, that is true. Grawitz had applied to Himmler that Ding should be given this assignment.

Q: Who told Grawitz about Ding?

A: Ding was known to Grawitz. I know that during the first campaign in France Grawitz was with the Deathhead Division, and Ding was Adjutant of the divisional doctor at that time, and I also know that Grawitz sent Ding to Graz in charge of a construction group in the SS Medical Academy, which trained students.

In other words, Grawitz knew Ding.

A: Do you deny you ever had given orders to Ding in his capacity as Chief of the experimental station at Buchenwald?

A: I did not give him any order.

Q: Do you deny that Ding ever reported to you his capacity as Chief of the experimental station at Buchenwald?

A: Reports from Ding as to work going on, actually going through in the Institute.

Q: Now I call your attention to a few reports which have been set forth here in your evidence. One was a document No. NO-571, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 285, which is found on page 14 of the Document Book No. 12, Your Honor, wherein Ding reports to you. Another one is Document No. NO-582, which as you call it, "A Publication of the Chief of Typhus Research acted on derivatives by Ding," this heading at the top of this report or publication. Then you may recall the following words: "From the Hygiene Hospital of Waffen-SS Berlin, Chief, SS Ober Fuhrer Mrugowsky." Now in your own affidavit which is document No. 423, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 282, found on page 7 of the Document Book No. 12, you said the following:

I obtained full knowledge of the position and activities of Dr. Karl Genzken, and of the position and work of Dr. Edwin Ding, who was Chief of the Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS at the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. Several times I received reports to which charts were attached from Dr. Ding indicating results of the experiments carried out there, and I reported on these matters to Dr. Genzken on occasion which shall be described later.

And then you go into detail about the same report. Now on direct examination you stated that you never issued orders to Ding, or that Ding never got orders from you, and as a matter of fact, you go so far as to state you don't know where Ding got his orders from.

That all being the case, why in the world did Ding submit his reports to you?

A: There was a very definite reason for that, arising from the special structure of Grawitz office. I did state during the direct examination that Grawitz did not have any working staff, that was before the reorganization, and several of my documents showed that for that reason he used members of other staffs, that he gave them special assignments, and I was one of these, and I have testified that in this capacity I had special title "Chief Hygienist," and I also said that this activity was very slight. Since Grawitz had no working staff of his own, and as he was not the Hygienist, and not the Bacteriologist, then he did not know necessarily what to do with Ding's various reports or orders, that Ding was to sent the reports through the Hygiene Institute. Since there was correspondence anyhow because of the production of typhus vaccine, that was the reason.

Q: Then you do admit that you received reports periodically from Dr. Ding concerning the experimental activities at the Buchenwald institute, don't you?

A: No, I do not admit that. That would not be correct. Even Ding says — or rather, even Ding does not say in his diary that he reported regularly on all series of experiments. I believe that only in the case of three or four series does he say that reports were sent to Berlin, and I am not at all certain that all of them went to my institute. I myself remember only the first report about the first series in 1942 which I passed on to Grawitz and which he gave me back later to work on. I did not work on these reports independently. They came to my office with the mail and the person working there read them, picked them out and sent them to Grawitz and then Grawitz gave me instructions as to whether I was to do anything about them. There was no regular report.

Q: Well now, let me refresh your memory a bit, Doctor. I call your attention to an affidavit of your secretary, which is found in Mrugowsky's document book No. 1, marked Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 13. On page 51, in paragraph 7, your secretary states that: "Ding's reports about his tests on prisoners went via the Hygiene Institute to Grawitz." In addition to that, I call your attention to the testimony of Dr. Kogon on page 1155 of the record where he states:

Dr. Ding, when he was not in Berlin, personally used to write reports to Mrugowsky every three months.

Page 1157:

The correspondence was carried on primarily with Mrugowsky.

Page 1160, he states that reports on experiments at 46 were sent to Mrugowsky in Berlin. On page 1163, Kogon stated that:

the instructions for the execution of the experiments had come from Mrugowsky in Berlin.

On page 1177, Kogon states that:

Ding triumphantly showed him an order from Mrugowsky

— an order from Mrugowsky regarding Danish vaccine experiments. On page 1185, concerning poison experiments, Ding said to Kogon:

Kogon, do you see any way to get me out of this business? I am supposed to test a poison here on Russian prisoners of war. I must report on it immediately. It is a direct order from Mrugowsky. I don't know how I can get out of it.

On page 1186, Kogon states that Ding had to report to Mrugowsky orally and not in writing. On page 1192, he states that:

Doctor Ellenbeck was directly subordinated to Doctor Mrugowsky

— in connection with the serum for typhus convalescence, and he states, on page 1195 and following over to 1196 that Ellenbeck took the blood from the inmates of small camps under Mrugowsky's orders. He states on page 1202 that in the late summer of 1943, Mrugowsky became the sole chief of Dr. Ding and gave all orders. They may have been suggested by Ding or other firms, but any experimentation was ordered by Mrugowsky. Now, Kogon further goes on to state on page 1241 that:

Mrugowsky occupied such an important position that it appeared dangerous for Ding-Schuler to go over the head of his immediate superior, Mrugowsky, and to have too much direct contact with Grawitz.

Furthermore, Kogon stated, at which you smiled, that he almost wore his fingers to the bone typing your name on these reports. And I also call your attention again to an interrogation of 25 October 1946, wherein I asked you

Q. Did Ding give you periodical reports on his experiments?

You answered:

Yes.

I said:

Q. How often?

Your answer:

I received his reports after having finished each experiment.

Now, Dr. Mrugowsky, in view of all this do you still maintain that you never issued any orders to Ding and that you were not responsible for the activities of the typhus and virus research station at the Buchenwald concentration camp?

A: First of all, I should like to say that these are not facts. These are merely assumptions. I may remind you that Kogon was asked about these things repeatedly during the examination. For example, the matter which you mentioned on —

I don't know the page — when Ding is supposed to have shown him an order from me with regard to the Copenhagen Vaccine. He said afterwards when he was examined by Dr. Fritz that the order was not in writing but that Ding had told him he had received such an order. And may also point out that this business about wearing his fingers to the bone does not refer to the reports, but to the long title which Ding always used in the heading. It is true that I told you last October that, in my opinion, Ding reported frequently and reported on the various series. At that time I had no knowledge of the Ding Diary. This document was shown to us only after the indictment and I did not know about all the experiments which he had conducted and you will remember that, at that time, we spoke only of, I believe it was two series and that was series 1 and the acridin experiments. And, as I thought at that time, those were the only experiments which Ding had conducted and I told you that I had seen a report on the first series and I said, in my direct examination, I spoke about the acridin question. I have not been able to see that Kogon reported from his own knowledge as far as my own orders were concerned. When he was asked afterwards, and he was asked at several points, he always said "Ding told me so". Ding could tell him anything.

That doesn't make it true.

Q: We'll go on, Doctor. The prosecution has introduced documentary evidence which indicates that on the 29th of December, 1941, a meeting was held in the Reich Ministry of the Interior concerning the typhus problem. Now, you maintain that such a meeting was not known to you, is that correct?

A: That is correct, and I also say that I was not present.

Q: And now, you recall that in Document No. 1315, which was Prosecution Exhibit 454, on page 2, it stated as follows:

The vaccine which is presently being produced by the Behring Works from chicken eggs shall be tested for its effectiveness in experiments. For this purpose, Dr. Demnitz will contact Obersturmbannfuehrer [Lieutenant Colonel] Dr. Mrugowsky.

As a result of this meeting, were you contacted by Dr. Demnitz?

A: No. In the document which I have submitted as coming from Dr. Demnitz himself the state of affairs is shown rather clearly. First, on the 6th of January, I was expected back from Kiew, that is, from the Ukraine. Second, Dr. Demnitz says quite clearly that I did not contact him because it was no longer necessary because we already had contact with one another. On the 22nd of December I received five hundred doses of vaccine from him for use under the East Ministry, and, at the beginning of January, 1942, I received six hundred doses. The correspondence in this matter is in my document books. Then the Behring Works merely expressed the wish that, in the test which Gildemeister and I had agreed upon — the test of the various vaccines, the vaccine produced by the Behring Works should also be considered.

That had not been planned in the beginning. This test was to cover only the vaccine produced by the Robert Koch Institute, produced by Gildemeister, and now the Behring Works asked that their vaccine was also to be tested and I believe that the documents also show that Gildemeister did not want this at first. Apparently he was afraid of some difficulty. Actually, however, I had already established contact with the Behring Works because I needed vaccine. Therefore, it was not necessary for any further contact between Demnitz and myself.

Q: Then it is perfectly clear that in this meeting in the Reich Ministry of the Interior the intention was expressed to test the effectiveness of vaccines by experimentation, wasn't it, from your knowledge of the documents?

A: There is not only your document about this matter, but two other documents, and these three documents show the state of affairs quite clearly. Almost every word that was spoken is reproduced there. It was purely an industrial discussion, and Gildemeister merely mentioned that his vaccine — or that I was to see to it that his vaccine was used on a large scale. The correspondence later with the Behring Works also shows what the intention was. That persons, Germans who were to be used in the East as officials and who had to be vaccinated should be vaccinated with this vaccine. That is a test on human beings. If you mean this kind of experiments on human beings, you are right. But it would not be true if you apply that to Ding's experiments. There is no connection.

Q: Did you ever attend a meeting on 29 December 1941 concerning this typhus problem?

A: No.

Q: You state that no such meeting took place, as stated in page 1 of Ding's diary; is that correct?

A: That is my conviction.

Q: You further stated that if you did have a meeting you would never have taken Ding along; is that correct?

A: I cannot remember taking Ding to any meeting at which I was present. If I was there I did not need any assistance; I always went to meetings alone.

Q: Did you ever attend a meeting at any time on the typhus problem in December on another date than the 29th?

A: On the typhus problem; of course there was a great deal of discussion at that time in various places.

Q: You never attended a meeting as outlined by Ding on another date?

A: No, at this meeting of Conti, Handloser and I or Ding. No, I apparently was never in such a meeting as I was never at any meeting with Conti and Handloser.

Q: Did you attend a meeting on December 29th or thereabouts concerning the typhus problem at which Schreiber and Gildemeister were present?

A: I do not believe so, as I have just settled in the last few days with certainty in my mind on December 27th I left Berlin; during these days I could not have been at any meeting as that was when I was on my travel to Russia.

Q: You changed your mind since last November, didn't you Doctor? I wish to call to your attention that Mr. McHaney and I interrogated you on November 1, 1946 and we had previously interrogated you on 25th of October and the majority of the time was consumed in discussing this meeting.

In the course of this interrogation on November 1, 1946, Mr. McHaney asked you whether or not the stated by Ding in his Diary concerning this conference was accurate and you said:

I remember that meeting and it occurred to me that there was present Schreiber, Gildemeister, Ding and myself. It is possible that Rose and Reiter were present too, but Handloser and Conti I don't remember as being present. I think that the meeting took place in a room of Schreiber's in the Army Medical Inspectorate, not in the room of Handloser.

Are you telling the truth now, or were you telling the truth then, Doctor?

A: It is true that I made that statement, that was based on my knowledge of the situation at the time. You will remember that you did not show me the diary, you merely read this entry to me; an excerpt and in my direct examination I have stated, and I have just repeated it, that at that time there were several discussions about typhus. It was the most important medical problem in Germany at the time and of course I repeatedly met the same people at these meetings. There are not many people in Germany who have a certain degree of knowledge about typhus and it is also true, as far as I remember, that Rose was present at one of these discussions. I also attended a meeting with Gildemeister at that time, but certainly never on the 29th of December and in the second place never with the people mentioned in the Ding entry. That is wrong for sure.

Q: Now, in view of this interrogation and the answer which you gave, which I assumed was truthful at that time, must I assume that since you have seen the documents and realize how complicated the documents are, your memory is becoming convenient and you say you did not attend the meeting; either you did or you did not attend the meeting.

You stated that you did and there was Schreiber, Gildemeister, Ding and yourself and your memory is only refreshed by the entry in Ding's diary and you immediately recalled such a meeting; did you ever meet with Schreiber, Gildemeister and Ding and discuss this problem?

A: It is true that I discussed typhus with these people, yes.

Q: What did you talk about?

A: Gildemeister and Schreiber you said; didn't you or Ding?

Q: Gildemeister and Schreiber.

A: I talked to Gildemeister and Schreiber about the problem of increasing vaccine production. Gildemeister's point of view was that the army procedure, the Weigl vaccine was very slow and cumbersome and could not be increased to the extent necessary and I shared his opinion and I still do. On the other hand, Schreiber shared Eyer's opinion that the main thing was to develop one procedure well and on a large scale and when one is in the middle of production not to stop everything and change everything for a new procedure; that was Gildemeister's opinion.

Q: You did not discuss the testing of these vaccines?

A: As far as Ding's experiments were concerned, we did not say a single word.

Q: You did not discuss the testing of vaccines at all at this meeting with Schreiber and Gildemeister?

A: Yes, the necessity of gathering experience with the various vaccines was discussed of course. May I remind you of the Document of Handloser concerning Geheimrat Otto who was the best typhus expert in Europe, who had dealt with typhus all his life. In 1943 he said all the vaccines from chicken eggs are not well known enough in their effect and there was of course much greater danger in 1941 when we were at the beginning of this period.

Q: Now, by the same correspondence it says that this institute was set in January of 1942 following these meetings at the Ministry of the Interior and one meeting with Schreiber and Gildemeister. How did it happen that Grawitz and Himmler set up such an institute if they did not attend such a meeting; who told them about this problem of typhus?

A: I informed Grawitz several times about the problem of typhus. Himmler was certainly informed through Conti, who was SS Gruppenfuehrer [Lieutenant General] and both of them belonged to the Reich Ministry of the Interior. May I point out again that among hygienist and bacteriologists was the typhus problem. If there was any medical problem in Germany at that time, it was the problem of typhus and the Government offices were greatly concerned with it then. It was their duty and in order to make that clear I have a document in my document book an excerpt from the Reichs epidemic law, which orders increased measures against typhus, not in 1941 but since 1900. The great interest of our Government and the Wehrmacht office can be explained in this way.

Q: Well, how does it happen that did not result until during the course of all these various meetings that you had in December of 1941 and these typhus discussions, if it was not agreed upon to experiment on human brings; to test the value of these on human beings, they set up Buchenwald; why did the Waffen SS resort to the Buchenwald concentration camp if it was not determined before hand that they would experiment on human beings; why did they not go to the Military Academy and get volunteers; why did they not go to your institute and get volunteers if they wanted a compatibility test?

A: I understand the difficulty of understanding these reasons, they are really very complicated, but I may remind you that in the interrogations we discussed this point at great length. You asked me which block was ordered first, Block 46, and I told you and it is still my opinion today that the vaccine production, which was later block 50, was ordered first. That was the idea which interested us in the Waffen SS and then there came a second development from a different source, that is from Grawitz and Himmler and the consequence of this second aspect was the creation of block 46; that is later block 46. This second development by-passed the first development because Ding became ill and was not able to work for more than six months and therefore the vaccine production could not begin.

Q: I won't argue the point any further, Doctor. I might say, as you stated, it was your intention to set up block 50 first and to set it up in the Buchenwald concentration camp; I ask you had that been the procedure why would you report to the Buchenwald concentration camp to set up a station for vaccine when it could have been done in any of your other institutes; was it because you people thought it necessary to experiment and you thought you had those guinea pigs; that is the only logical sequence, Doctor?

A: No, I beg your pardon, but that conclusion is not logical. In order to test a vaccine in concentration camps on human beings I do not need to put the production in the concentration camp, too many vaccines from other sources were tested too. The reason was quite a different one, which I have already explained to you very carefully. At the beginning of the war there were two bacteriologists in the Waffen SS.

At the beginning of the campaign in the east the duties in the field of hygiene and epidemic control suddenly arose enormously. The assistants in Hygienic Institutes in Germany, who had been drafted into the Waffen SS, was a very small number; they were mostly very young and had only seen training in bacteriology. If we wanted to take over such a definite task as vaccine production, that is it we wanted to compete with industry, we had to have experienced men.

Where could we get these men? I knew that among the prisoners in various concentration camps there were foreign bacteriologists and quite well-known people. Dr. Horn, for example, mentioned the Czech professor, Thomaschek. He is a professor at the Czech University, a very well-known man in Europe. There were various other people under arrest.

At that time through Lolling I inquired of all the concentration camp doctors, and about ten to fifteen bacteriologists were reported. I said to myself, "If we do not have enough bacteriologists now, then there is the possibility that these bacteriologists who have a great deal of experience can participate in this work." I had another thought in the back of my head, too. In the first part of the war the prisoners who had previously studied medicine were not allowed to work as doctors. They were employed in the stone quarries and so forth. That is a terrible physical and mental effort for a man who is not used to such work.

I tried in this way to give them an opportunity to work in their own specialty again, not only as doctors but in their own specialized fields. That coincided with my own desire to have vaccine produced, although we did not have enough of our own SS doctors for this purpose and there was no opportunity to train people thoroughly enough.

Q: That's enough on that line. Now, in your Document Book Number 1, Page 104, which is Mrugowsky Exhibit 19, the last paragraph states:

On request of Ministerialrat [Ministerial Councilman] Dr. Bieber, it is also stipulated that in a large-scale experiment, agreed upon by the Robert Koch Institute and the Hygienist of the SS, Dr. Mrugowsky, both Weigl's vaccine and the vaccine of the Behring Works shall be included.

What is this large-scale experiment?

A: That refers again to the testing of the vaccine which is mentioned in the Bieber document which you submitted as a prosecution exhibit in connection with the discussion between Demnitz and myself. That's the same thing. It is called large-scale experiment apparently because it is a question of hundreds and thousands of vaccinations. One of my documents — I believe it comes from Dr. Demnitz — shows that as early as September, I believe it was, 1941, we informed the Behring Works of our need in respect to the Germans to be settled in the Eastern areas, whom I estimated at the time at 20,000.

That was really a large-scale experiment; and I think that is what this word refers to; not experiment but test.

Q: Well, summing up this discussion of the conferences, you do suggest that you had meetings or a meeting with Schreiber and Gildemeister. Now, was that meeting in the office of Schreiber in the Army Medical Inspectorate?

A: Yes, that is correct. It must have been earlier. I remember that there was no snow at the time; and that would not have been the case in December. It must have been in the late fall.

Q: You exclude the possibility that Dr. Ding was there; is that right?

A: At this discussion which is mentioned?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes, he certainly was not there.

Q: However, you do admit to this Tribunal that in answer to a question in an interrogation on November 1st, 1946, by Mr. McHaney, regarding the statement by Ding on Page 1 of his diary, as to whether or not it was accurate, you answered:

I remember that meeting; and it occurred to me that there were present Schreiber, Gildemeister, Ding, and myself. It is possible that Rose and Reiter were present, too? but Handloser and Conti I don't remember as being present. I think that the meeting took place in a room of Schreiber's in the Army Medical Inspectorate.

You admit that you said that in an answer to a question that Mr. McHaney propounded to you on November 1st, 1946, do you not?

A: It is true that I said that? but I point out that it had been five years since the meeting and that my memory was not necessarily quite accurate and that it is much better to base one's opinion on the documents which speak quite clearly.

Q: Now, you have stated here that you never issued orders to Dr. Ding regarding experimentation. I wish to call your attention to Document Number NO-257, which Prosecution Exhibit Number 283, on Page 10 of Document Book Number 12, wherein Dr. Ding states as follows — this is an affidavit of Dr. Dinb:

At the end of 1942 I took part in a conference of the Military Doctors' Academy in Berlin. The topic of discussion was the fatality of gas burn-serum on wounded. Now, Kilian and Mrugowsky gave reports of soldiers who had seen gas edema serum in high quantities up to 1500 c. c. an hour afterwards out of complete recuperation.

DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, I object to the use of this affidavit by Dr. Ding. I objected to it when it was submitted. Dr. Ding is dead. It is, therefore, no longer possible to call on him for cross examination. Written testimony of dead persons may not be used in the trial for this reason. I object to the use of this testimony.

MR. HARDY: I won't comment, your Honor. The document has been admitted into evidence; and I feel that I can use it in cross examination.

THE PRESIDENT: The objection is overruled. The document may be used for purposes of cross examination of the witness.

Q: I'll repeat. In substance this affidavit states that in 1942 a conference was held in the Military Medical Academy in Berlin. Those present were Schreiber, Mrugowsky, Ding and apparently Kilian. Now, you have submitted an affidavit of Kilian here in which Kilian states that such a meeting took place. Do you remember attending that meeting?

A: Yes.

Q: The topic of discussion was gas burn serum, was it not?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: Now, Dr. Ding states in his affidavit:

Mrugowsky suspected that the phenol content brought about the fatal results of the consolidation of the separate injections.

Was that true?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, Ding goes on to say:

In the presence of the other gentlemen Mrugowsky, commanded me to take part in the euthanasia with phenol in a concentration camp and to describe the result in detail, since neither I nor Mrugowsky ever saw a case of death through phenol.

If I understand it correctly, you deny that you ever commanded Ding to do such a thing; is that correct?

A: It is very fortunate for me that Ding made this statement in the form in which he did. The other person present at this meeting, Prof. Kilian, says quite clearly in his document that in his presence no such assignments were mentioned. That refutes the statement of Ding. I have no necessity to do so either. We learn about phenol deaths in the pharmacology at the University; and we fail in the examination if we don't know about it.

Q: Well, in this regard, how would you determine the tolerance of a serum containing phenol, unless you experimented with phenol or unless you experimented with the scrum? Isn't there a problem there which should have been given consideration by the members of this meeting?

A: Yes, that is true. There were two things to be considered; first, the symptoms of poisoning themselves were very well-known and did not require any investigation. It is known that death from phenol and damages to health can occur, such as appeared here after the use of gangrene serum; and it was a question of figuring out how much phenol is contained in 400 c. c. of gas gangrene serum. For example, that is 2 c. c. of concentrated carbolic acid; and the human body cannot stand that without harm being done. In the second place the possibility was discussed of testing this thing once more by experiments. Prof. Kilian speaks about this in his document. In the conference he reported that, I believe, four or five of his associates, assistants at his clinic in Breslau, had injected into their arteries a solution of phenol and table salt, and then all suffered certain symptoms of phenol poisoning. The situation was cleared up by this. There was no need for further experimentation.

This experiment had taken place before the meeting. Kilian reported about it. I said to Ding: "Orientate yourself about phenol poison as such it may become important in course of the war in cases of large doses of scrum being given." I told him where literature was to be found at Jena. I said that because I was responsible for Ding's training as a hygienist and a bacteriologist, I am responsible to the state for training my assistants. At the end of their specialized training, I had to give a certificate that they had been properly trained.

For that reason I took advantage of all the opportunities which arose by accident to demonstrate to my assistants rather complicated questions in our field. For that reason I went to this meeting with Ding. I wanted to induce him to think about this question of gangrene, and it is better to do this on the basis of experience rather than on the written orders.

Q: One last question, Doctor. As a result of this meeting, Ding then returned to Buchenwald and killed people with phenol injections. You deny that you commanded him to do that, and do you state that Ding did that on his own initiative? Is that your defense to Ding's statement?

A: I certainly do deny that, yes. I had nothing whatever to do with it.

MR. HARDY: I believe this is a good breaking point, your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.

(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)