1947-04-02, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 2 April 1947).
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY — Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION — Continued
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Prior to the afternoon recess, doctor, we were discussing the phenol problem. Now in this connection did you at any time propose experiments to be conducted at Buchenwald concerning the tolerance of serum or sera containing phenol? That is, did you propose that in 1942 or 1943 or any time?
A: No, no such suggestions were made and they were not necessary because in Germany every serum contains phenol. In the German serum industry there is no serum produced without phenol. I am speaking of the sera for therapeutic purposes, not vaccines.
Q: Then at no time did you ever propose that experiments be conducted to determine the tolerance of sera containing phenol, is that what you say?
A: No, I never suggested that.
Q: Are you sure, doctor?
A: Yes.
MR. HARDY: At this time, Your Honor, I offer Document NO-1198, as Prosecution Exhibit No. 466, for identification. This is a letter dated Berlin, 24 August 1944, Subject: Service of experiments, it has reference file indexes, addressed to the Chief Hygienist on the staff of the Reich Physician SS and Police, Berlin — Zehlendorf.
Dear Mrugowsky:
I am able to inform you that the Reichsfuehrer—SS has approved today the series of experiments proposed by you:
specific therapy with typhus
tolerance of sera containing phenol.
I agree that both series of experiments in the department for typhus and virus research of the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS in Weimar-Buchenwald should be carried out, and request that I be informed of the course of the findings, perhaps through intermediary reports.
By order of Grawitz.
The signature is "NICCLAI".
Q: Now this states that the Reichsfuehrer-SS has approved a series of experiments proposed by you and the experiments may be carried out in Buchenwald. You stated that you never proposed experiments to determine the tolerance of sera containing phenol. Now do you maintain, doctor, that you never initiated any experimentation to determine the tolerance of sera containing phenol?
A: Yes. The connection here is something quite different. I shall discuss point 2 first. I have already said that in Germany there were no sera without phenol. In connection with this phenol question in German serum, I informed Grawitz about the discussion which is being discussed here, at which Kilian and Schreiber were present, and I told him that the industry should try to produce sera without phenol, as the French serum industry had been doing for same time. I knew that suggestions to that effect had been sent to the industry, but that the German serum industry had refused, during the war, to effect any such basic change in its production because it was not in a position to obtain the necessary special apparatus, filters, etc. I therefore told Grawitz that in serum therapy for ordinary diseases — I was thinking primarily of diphtheria, in which large quantities of serum were used at the time in the therapy against diphtheria once it had broken cut, because the highly concentrated serum was no longer available in necessary quantities — I told him that in such diseases one should watch to see whether damage might result from phenol, and I told him that it would be desirable to know whether serum without phenol would definitely prevent such a shock and etc.
I also remember that this point two had connection with the fact we had negotiated with Behring Works for the production of serum frequently in small quantities in order to use them, and to compare them with other serum. If I remember correctly this involved diphtheria serum, that is the serum which is used mostly in Germany. The comparison was to be made of symptoms following the administration of the usual diphtheria serum containing phenol in the children preventing from diphtheria, and which was to be seen whether the symptoms would appear and the symptoms following the administration of the serum freed from phenol were to be noted. This was what Grawitz mean there, and he called that a series of experiments. I might point out that this expressed series of experiments in this case cannot refer to artificial infection, because with diphtheria it is not possible to have a human being artificially infected with diphtheria serum.
Q: Doctor, after receiving this confirmation of your proposals to perform experiments as outlined in this letter, you must have issued orders in that regard. Now to whom did you issue those orders?
A: No, I did not issue any orders. In my opinion this concerns activities of some civilian hospitals; for among the troops, and in concentration camps we did not have any diphtheria patients.
Q: Just a moment, Doctor. But it is said in this letter Grawitz agrees that these experiments can be carried out in Department of Typhus Virus Research of the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS in Weimar-Buchenwald. Did you or did you not carry out these experiments in Weimar-Buchenwald?
A: No.
Q: Never issued any orders to carry out such experiments to Ding, for instance?
A: I have already explained what this series of experiments mean. It is possible that I suggested for example that he was to vaccinate one child with one kind of serum and another child with another serum.
That is possible; I don't remember about that. But to try out serum containing phenol on human beings, that I did not order.
Q: Then as a result of this letter of Grawitz to you approving your proposals, you took no action, is that right?
A: No. I may point out that this has no connection with the Ding affidavit, which also refer to serum containing phenol.
Q: I am not asking you that question. Did you or did you not as a result of this confirmation of your proposals order that experiments be carried out as outlined in this letter? I am not interested in other phases of experimentation at Buchenwald. Did you or did you not carry out or have carried out experiments as outlined in this letter?
A: I do not know anything about experiments which were carried out.
Q: You told us on direct examination that you had specific therapy with typhus carried out at Buchenwald, didn't you?
A: Yes. I was referring to point two, serum containing phenol, and as to No. 1 specific therapy with typhus, I explained that in my direct examination. Do you want me to repeat it.
Q: No, you don't need to explain it again, You did as a result of this confirmation and proposal pass down orders in compliance with this letter to Buchenwald?
A: No. It was not an order, but a suggestion. As I have said in my direct examination it was not a series of experiments in the sense of artificial infection that would have been senseless, because we had enough people suffering from typhus with whom this therapy could be carried out. It is unfortunately so that in the German language we use a word "experiment" not only in artificial infection but also for tests of such a nature, and that we call them experiments, too.
Q: Then you only passed it along as a suggestion and not as an order, is that what you wish to state?
A: Just a suggestion to certain internists, that, in the case of typhus, against it we had no treatment, they should test this new treatment, which in a clinically similar instance paratyphus "A" had very good results; for that reason I was of the opinion would have justified in trying it and of the same way in typhus. This suggestion, I believe, went to three different persons, who were internists in the SS hospitals, and I believe they were in Berlin, Prague, and some other hospitals, and it is quite possible that I also made such a suggestion to Ding, because I know that I discussed this matter with my assistants, but not with the purpose of starting a series of experiments with artificial infection.
Q: Let's go on doctor. On direct examination you said you knew nothing about high altitude experiments, is that right?
A: That is right, yes.
Q: In addition you knew nothing about Rascher's Research work at all?
A: No, I knew nothing about Rascher's Research work.
Q: Now Document No. NO-647, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 124, which is found on the last page of Document Book 3, there is a note by Sievers which states as follows:
Subject: Cooperation of Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS.
In reference to my letter 9/2/42, regarding vermin —
(reads letter)
Now do you state that Sievers erroneously included your name in this notation in connection with the research of the gastein water?
A: Yes, in this discussion I remember this discussion with Sievers in my Institute very well. It was fortunate circumstances
Q: Net's not go into other discussions. Did you or did you not discuss the research field of Rascher's with regard to use of the gastein water in cases of freezing, as stated in this document?
A: According to what Sievers has told me here, he asked me who within the SS hospitals, and medical inspectorate of the SS, of the medical office was competent for such experiments, and he also said that this water was actually used later against freezing in the SS hospitals in Vienna. Of this specific point about the gastein water I don't remember. It could only be a particularly brief question, but we certainly did not discuss Rascher's work of either high altitude experiments, or cold experiments. On those Professor Schadler who is mentioned here, has been here since yesterday, and he will testify as to what we discussed at this meeting, and he will confirm what I have said that we did not discuss Rascher's research work.
Q: Now you have said on direct examination your representative or a member of your staff of the Institute attended the Nuernberg meeting on freezing, and he reported to you about the meeting, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: As a matter of fact you stated in direct examination that you visited Dachau itself or that you were unable to get into the inner camp, is that right?
A: I said that in the spring of 1943 I was in Dachau at a food meeting. I was not in the concentration camp and I did not talk to any of these people. I also said that this meeting probably took place after Rascher had finished the high altitude and cold experiments. As far as I remember it was in May, and his experiment only lasted until April, but I was not quite sure whether the meeting might not have been at the end of April, but in any case, and this is confirmed by the affidavit of Pohl, it is certain that I had no opportunity to talk to anyone who worked at this experimental station of Rascher's and had no opportunity to enter the concentration camp, since we were taken out from Munich all of us together, and after the meeting we were all taken back together.
Q: You also stated in direct examination that you received knowledge from Grawitz of schilling's experiments with malaria, but that you had no opportunity to interfere since you were still in the SS-Fuehrungshauptamt [Executive Office], is that right?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Now, you are aware, of course, that schilling's worm continued until the end of the war, aren't you?
A: Yes, that is true. I heard of it here.
Q: Then after you became Chief Hygienist, that is chief of Office 3 in Grawitz office you didn't interfere with Schilling's work either, did you?
A: I did not know at that time that Schilling's work was still going on.
I can testify quite definitely under oath that outside of this intermediary report, which I believe was in 1942, I never had anything more to do with the whole matter, and was quite astonished when I learned suddenly after the collapse that Schilling had continued the malaria experiment in Dachau until 1945. This is my explanation for that. According to the records of the trial at Dachau Schilling approached Himmler by mediation of Conti, and Grawitz told me at the time that he himself had no influence on these matters because they had been ordered by Himmler personally. Grawitz had not been included in the matter, and I believe that is also shown by the record of the trial at Dachau. I was of the opinion that these matters had gone directly from Schilling to Grawitz. That was my opinion until the beginning of this trial here. In any case I never had anything more to do with it. I never read anything about it. I was never told anything about it, and I never did anything. I never took any steps in the matter. I was convinced that it had long been finished.
Q: Well now, regarding the sulfanilamide experiments, on direct examination you didn't deny that the cultures came from the hygiene institute to the Waffen SS, did you?.
A: No, that is not right. I only said that it was possible. There is a difference, isn't there? I myself know nothing about it. I was not in Berlin at that time.
Q: Fischer says that the cultures came from the hygiene institute to the Waffen SS, doesn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: You were chief of that institute, weren't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, regarding the epidemic jaundice experiments you said that you knew nothing about those experiments as presented here, is that right?
A: I learned of these experiments only through the trial.
Q: You never heard of any proposals or never talked with anybody about experimentation in the field of hepatitis epidemica, is that right?
A: No. I never talked to anyone, the things which are the subject of the trial, that is. Of course, I have discussed the disease itself, but never the question of what is the cause, and I never did anything in that connection. I never talked about the experimentation.
Q: You have talked to Gutzeit about hepatitis, I suppose?
A: I don't believe so. I know Gutzeit only visually, and aside from general medical meetings where there were many hundred people I met him only once at a small meeting. That was the second time when I talked to Professor Handloser. There was a question of whether the cholera danger no longer existed. Something quite different. We did not discuss jaundice.
Q: Now, did you ever talk to Schreiber about hepatitis?
A: Certainly not, never.
Q: Any work along the lines of hepatitis was of interest to you as a hygienist, wasn't it?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, wasn't Schreiber, as I recall, plenipotentiary for research in epidemics, in the Reich Research Council for research on epidemics, in the Reich Research Council?
A: Yes, he was, but all the time since he had held that position, I believe that was since 1945, I had hardly anything to do with Schrieber, because our points of contact were actually in the field of troop hygiene. When we mot each other we always discussed now we could protect our soldiers. That is purely business. But it was no longer necessary later because he had a successor in this office as troop hygienist, and these conversations were carried on with that man. During that time I saw Schreiber perhaps twice, but we never said a word about any experiments or about matters concerning the Research Council.
Q: Did Schreiber ever show any interest in experiments on human beings concerning hepatitis?
A: I don't know. I can't say anything about that. He didn't say anything to me about it. I can't remember ever discussing the specific topic of jaundice with him. We discussed typhus a great deal, typhoid fever, malaria, but not jaundice. That was not a subject for the hygienist but for the internist.
Q: Then he never expressed any desire to experiment on human beings to you, Shreiber?
A: No, not to me.
Q: Did he ever frankly request you to supply him with subjects to be used in experiments?
A: No.
Q: They you know nothing about any plans concerning experimentation on human beings in the field of hepatitis?
A: No, I have no idea about that.
Q: Doctor, I want to give you on opportunity to think a moment and to realize you are under oath here, and I want to give you another opportunity to save yourself from perjury. Do you still state that you know nothing about any plans or enterprise concerning experiments on human beings in the field of hepatitis?
A: I can only repeat that I knew nothing about any plans concerned with the things which are the subject of your trial.
MR. HARDY: I now want to introduce Document No. 1305, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 467 for identification. Do the interpreters have a copy? This is a letter on the letterhead of Reich Physician SS and Police, Chief Hygienist, dated 29 January 1945, regarding consent for a series of experiments, addressed to Reich physician SS and Police, Berlin.
Hauptsturmfuehrer [Captain] Professor Dr. Dresel, Director of the Hygienic Institute of the University of Leipzig has cultivated a Virus from persons suffering from Hepatitis and succeeded in transplanting it on animals.
It is necessary to make experiments on human beings in order to determine the fact that this Virus is indeed the effective Virus Hepatitis epidemica. The plenipotentiary for research Council therefore addressed himself to me with the request to carry out the above experiments.
I am asking you to obtain authorization from the Reichsfuehrer SS to carry out the necessary experiments on 20 suitable prisoners who have neither to never suffered from Hepatitis Epidemica, at the typhus-experimental station of the concentration camp Buchenwald.
/s/ Mrugowsky.
Q: Now, Doctor, is that your signature?
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, I object to the submission of this document. It has no date, and it has no journal number. I should like to see the original.
MR. HARDY: The original has a date on it, Your Honor.
MR. HARDY (to Page): Will you kindly get the original from the defendant?
MR. HARDY: This document is an official German document, Your Honor, certified in the same manner as all others that have been introduced in evidence. Obviously, the German mimeograph doesn't have the date on it.
DR. FLEMMING: The original has a date. Yes, it was just not copied.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the date?
MR. HARDY: 27 January 1945, Your Honor.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Now, Dr. Mrugowsky, is that your signature on that document?
A: It is my signature and I can tell you the following about the document.
Q: Just a moment, Doctor. I asked you is that your signature? Yes?
A: Yes, it is my signature.
Q: Now, the Plenipotentiary for Research in Epidemics in the Reich Research Council was Schreiber, was it not?
A: Yes.
Q: He addressed himself to you with the request to carry out the above experiments, did he not, according to this letter?
A: He did not talk to me about the matter. He sent me a letter, and the contents are more or less copied here. I may point out that this letter was written on the 29th of January, 1945. This indicates that it has nothing to do with the experiments which are the subject of discussion here. They took place earlier. It has nothing to do with the Haagen case or the Dohmen case. In this case, twenty prisoners were to be used. Dohmen used eight. It was at the time when there were quite definite directives from the Reich Fuehrer on the assignment of prisoners. You know that only the Reich Criminal Police Office in Berlin could make such assignments, and this office was in charge only of professional criminals. It is true that I wrote this letter and suggested this assignment, but in January 1945 nothing was done about it. This letter has no connection with any of the experiments which are the subject of this trial. Above the address it says:
Re: Consent for a series of experiments.
There is no reference to any previous correspondence. If that had been the case it would say "Reference" and then the number of an earlier letter or something.
Q: Let's us go on now, Doctor, to another subject.
Were you in charge of the rationing of Zyklon B gas to concentration camps?
A: No. It was issued by the Central Medical Depot of the Waffen-SS.
Q: Now, do you know that in Germany the use of Zyklon B for the purpose of combating dangerous animals and plants was generally prohibited as set forth in the Reichsgesetzblatt [Reich Law Gazette] dated 8 February 1919?
A: Yes, that is true and because there was this governmental ruling we, in our disinfection school, had special courses for the use of highly poisonous gasses for delousing clothing. There was a course for disinfectors and, in addition, these people had to take an examination to obtain the state certificate for poison. Prussic acid could be used for disinfection use only by state approved disinfectors who had special permission from the state to work with this Zyklon, and the disinfectors who had this poison certificate had the permission and had had previous training so that they knew how to use the preparation. In all the larger camps and at troop maneuvers places we had arrangements for prussic acid decontamination as well its in the big prisoner of war camps of the army. That was the most customary procedure in Germany.
Q: Now, of course, there was a German regulation existing which prescribed in extraordinary cases when the use of Zyklon and similar materials were permitted that these poisons were always to be mixed with an irritant in order to warm human beings and to avoid danger. Was that right?
A: If you mean the following: Prussic acid has no odor or, at least, very little, and a special substance was introduced into the prussic acid compounds so that it could be smelled. In this form it was used, and in this technical form it is not called prussic acid. — that is a chemical — but it is called Zyklon B.
Q: Now, that special substance mixed with it, is that "Reizstoff" or "Warnstoff". Is that right? W A R N S T O F F? Is that the word you used?
A: Warnstoff [warning substance], yes.
Q: That can be translated as an irritant?
A: It is to warn human beings to watch out. "This is poison". Otherwise, one would simply breathe it in without smelling it.
Q: Well now, this Zyklon B that you used in your delousing program, did that have this irritant mixed in it?
A: Yes; only the official tin containers of a certain size were used. They were delivered by the competent Reich committee; and it always contained this Warnstoff without which work would have been very dangerous, in spite of gas masks.
Q: Now, was it necessary to carefully label the can of gas so that it would be obvious that this gas contained such an irritant?
A: It was not like a water or a gasoline can, but it was a very special kind of tin can which had a label from the firm which had produced it with a colored sign. I never saw any other cans without this sign. Only the original cans from the firm were used, as far as I know.
Q: Well now, do you know whether or not the containers in which the Zyklon B was in —
In other words, do you know whether the containers with Zyklon B which were sent to the concentration camps for extermination in gas chambers contained the Zyklon B mixed with an irritant? Do you know that?
A: No, I cannot tell you anything about that. Until I was arrested I had heard nothing of this type of use of prussic acid, but here I have seen a document from the investigating judge of the SS — Dr. Morgen, who investigated these things in the concentration camps and he testifies that for Auschwitz, prussic acid came from a certain firm in Hamburg Stolzenberg and Company, a chemical firm. I didn't know that this firm had anything to do with the production of prussic acid. I know only three firms which did not include Stolzenberg and he describes a case — and this is why I remember it — a case where a certain prisoner sent the empty cans back to the firm and he also sent back a full one or a half full one which had not been used. That was, of course, very dangerous and that is why I remember the matter. Whether they contained an irritant or whether it was the preparation Zyklon B, I don't know, and this preparation was not issued by the Central Medical Depot.
Q: Well now, this gas that Dr. Morgen mentions coming from Stolzenberg and Company, he mentions that as being the gas that was used in the extermination chambers, is that right?
A: Yes, so he told me.
Q: Well now, the gas that you used in delousing was obtained from Tescha, Stabenow, Degesch and another firm, is that right?
A: The procedure was as follows: In the Old Reich, that is not including Austria and the Sudetenland and the Protectorate, there were only two firms of this kind. The Hamburg Company, Tench and Stabenow, and Herd and Linder in Frankfurt. The Elbe divided the Reich into the districts under each of these firms, and later there was another firm in Bohemia and there was a firm in Kolin. From a special company these received their instructions, as far as I know. That was the Deutsche Gesellschaft fuer Schaedlingsbekaemptung, which came from the German company for combating pests and was abbreviated as "Degesch". This Degesch was competent for building Zyklon chambers for delousing clothing and a special procedure had been developed in Germany. We received the permission from this company and I negotiated with the head of the company, Dr. Peters. In the later course of the war, the air war eliminated the producing companies gradually and production suffered and it became necessary to coordinate the need and the materials available. For this purpose, a special committee was formed in the Reich ministry for Armament and War Production where other such committees also existed. The chairman of this committee was Dr. Peters and this committee now rationed the prussic acid to the individual consumers.
Q: Well, let's get to the things at issue. Now, in connection with the gas that was used we'll say in the Auschwitz concentration camp this Zyklon B that you used in delousing was mixed with an irritant. Now, do you accede the possibility that Zyklon produced by Stabenow and Degesch was used in the extermination chambers in Auschwitz?
A: I do not believe so for the following reason: Auschwitz was a very large camp which had twelve such decontamination chambers. They had a volume of twelve cubic meters. They were used about fourteen hours a day for that decontamination.
One needs a large amount of prussic acid for such constant use, summer and winter. Near Auschwitz I had a hygiene institute, and I know from the head of this institute whom I have applied for as a witness, who is not here yet but he will probably come and be able to testify about this — I learned that these chambers were really in operation every day, but I know that the need for Zyklon was considerably larger than the amount available. Even the entire amount assigned to the SS would not have been sufficient to cover the need of Auschwitz alone, but there were other consumers also. Therefore, I consider it quite impossible that these quantities which were male available by the Central Medical Depot for decontamination purposes could have been misused for other purposes. And there is another reason why I think it impossible. That is because the Central Medical Depot sent them through the post doctor — that is, through medical channels, while the doctor had nothing to do with these extermination matters. I have learned later here that this extermination camp of Auschwitz was not at Auschwitz proper and hence had nothing to do with the medical service of Auschwitz. It was near Auschwitz and had a special name but I don't know the name.
Q: Was the name Kanada?
A: No that was something else, it was a Polich name, and as far as I know now from the various interrogations and material I have seen from the previous conferences the commandant of Auschwitz Hoess was simultaneously with the commandant of the extermination camp; but I know that only from the files which I have seen; I do not know it from my own knowledge.
Q: You did not supply Hoess with any gas?
A: No, definitely not.
Q: I want to introduce Document No. NI-034, which will be offered as Prosecution Exhibit 468 for identification. Now this is an affidavit by Rudolf Hoess and he states in number 2 and paragraph 2 therein:
I was commandant of Auschwitz until 1 December 1943 and I estimate to that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there in gas chambers and crematories. At least a further half million people died from hunger and sickness, which adds up to a total amount of about 3,000,000 deaths.
Now if you will turn to the next page in paragraph 5, he states:
Mass executions in gas chambers began during summer 1941 and lasted until the fall of 1944. I supervised personally the executions in Auschwitz until 1 December 1943. After I had constructed the extermination building in Auschwitz, I used Zyklon B, a crystallized prussic acid, which was thrown into the death chambers through a small opening. The older extermination camps Belsen, Treblinka and Wolzek had used monoxide gas. To exterminate 1,500 people between 5 and 7 cans of one kilo each of Zyklon B were required. The amount of cans depended upon the size of the gas chamber and upon the weather conditions, that is: 2 to 3 additional cans were required in cold and humid weather.
A considerable amount of Zyklon B was still available in Camp Auschwitz when the gassing of human brings began. The gas had been used for the extermination of vermin in the buildings and barracks, which were there from the original Polish artillery camp.
The gas came from the firm Tesch & Stablnow, International Insecticide Company, Ltd., Hamburg. Two technical representatives of this company were present at the camp to carry out the disinfection of the buildings, whereby they applied most carefully all measures of security in order to prevent accidents.
Zyklon B in cans for the gassing of human beings in Auschwitz was also later procured continuously and exclusively from Tesch & Stablnow. The cans bore labels which were identical with the upper one shown to me in document No. NI-032.
In 1942 and 1943 it happened that Tesch & Stablnow could not make deliveries of poison gas because of difficulties in railroad transportation. For that reason we sent our own trucks to Dessau to fetch the gas ourselves. We had been informed that the prison gas was produced by the firm Tesch & Stablnow in plants near Dessau. Our trucks were manned by SS people. The trucks had an SS number and a tactical sign consisting of a triangle pointing upwards in which the initial, of the respective concentration camp, in this case the letter "A" was set. I believe that only insiders could have known that the sign identified concentration camps. Until the end of 1941 or beginning of 1942 the camp management had ordered the gas directly from Tesch & Stablnow. From that time on Dr. Mrugowsky, the deputy for Hygiene for the Reichsfuehrer SS ordered gas for all SS organizations and installations. He was also responsible for supplying the quotas. In this way it was Dr. Mrugowsky who ordered delivery of the quota needed by the annihilation camp Birkenau from Tesch and Stablnow.
Did Dr. Hoess order his gas from you Dr. Mrugowsky?
A: No, Mr. Hoess says here something that is not true. This thing was shown to me in July in an interrogation and I denied this at the time and since that time I have tried to prove my point of view. I have shown some Documents and we have a few in reserve, which will probably be shown in the next few days, they show quite clearly with whom we negotiated on the prussic acid question and for what purpose and what amounts we received.
The competent people have testified here that such a connection with prussic acid and with the extermination of human brings did not exist. On rationed material only those amounts were allotted and approved by committees which could be justified. The need was calculated primarily according to the number of (Zyklon installations), that is decontamination chambers, especially for clothing which existed in the camps. From observation and from information from other people I knew that wherever such chambers existed they were constantly in operation for the usual purposes. If the local people in any case took these small allotted amounts for other purposes, I cannot say and that is something for which I am not responsible. In any case I can say quite definitely, first, that I did not discuss this matter with Hoess and I did not correspond with him on the subject or any deputy of his. Secondly, neither I or any member of my agency had any such official connection. Third, that I myself learned, of these extermination camps only after the collapse. I was utterly astonished about this.
As I told you during the interrogation, I was at Auschwitz once or twice in the earlier years and I had never seen any such installations or anything which might give rise to suspicion. I can explain that now because I was only in the camp itself, but not in the extermination camp, which was at a different location and which was not shown to me. This way I had no knowledge whatsoever of these matters.
Q: Let us now go back to the typhus experiments; if I understand, you correctly from your defense counsel, it is your contention that the Ding Diary is a fake and a fraud; is that right?
A: The Ding Diary is not a diary, but for some purpose which I cannot understand it was written by someone else; that is my conviction.
Q: Just a moment, we will call it a note book; is it still your contention that it is a fraud, and a fake?
A: I contend that this book has no value as a record, it was not kept regularly and secondly that it was written subsequently for some purpose in this present form.
Q: Just a moment, Doctor. You stated in your opening statement that the Ding Diary was a fraud; is that your contention?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell me who you think perpetrated this alleged fraud?
A: It is my opinion that this fraud was committed in the camp at Buchenwald.
Q: You don't deny that Ding's signature appears on the pages of the diary; do you?
A: Ding's signature is on it.
Q: Just what portions of the diary or notebook or whatever you wish to call it do you consider to be manufactured evidence? For instance, your defense counsel end yourself contest page Number 1, Page Number 12. Just what portions of that diary do you consider to be a fraud?
A: I would say that first of all according to the opinion of the two writing experts Page I was inserted later Second, I believe it is Page 13, which was also inserted later and has no connection with the handwriting or the signature of the proceeding and following pages. The whole diary up to about June 1943 was written all at one time; nearly two years were written down all at one; and, of course, one cannot call that a diary.
Q: Now then, you do admit for the most part that the diary is correct and accurate, don't you?
A: I can't say anything definite about that, for I don't know the material; but I think that tomorrow we will have definite information about that.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE SEBRING): Where is the Ding Diary in the English Document Book? I have forgotten just at the moment.
MR. HARDY: It starts on Page 38 of English Document Book Number 12, which is Exhibit Number 12. Which is Exhibit Number 287.
Q: Now, let us have a matching contests, here, Doctor.
MR. HARDY: I request Dr. Flemming to supply Dr. Mruggowski with Document Book Number 1 of Mrugoswki.
Your Honor, if I may at this time ask you Honors to bear with me and turn to Page Number 39 of Document Book Number 12, the English.
That's prosecution Document Book Number 12. And I also ask you to turn to Page 86 in the Mrugowski Document Book Number 1, Page 86.
Q: Now Doctor, you have the German Document Book. Would you kindly turn to the entry which is included under 6 January 1942 to 1 February 1942, which is entitled "That is the Diary." Now, in the diary we have therein the following;
Execution of vaccination for immunization for spotted fever, using the following vaccines:
Thirty one persons with Weigel vaccine from the intestines of lice of the Institute for Spotted Fever and Virus Research at the Supreme Command of the Army OKH, Cracow.
Thirty five persons with vaccine made by the process Cox, Gildemeister, and Haagen.
Thirty-five persons with vaccine Behring-normal, one egg bloated to 450 c.c. vaccine, mixture of 70 percent Rickettsia Mooseri and 30 per cent Rickettsia Prowazeki.
Thirty — four persons with Behring-normal, Behring-strong (stark), one egg bloated to 250 c.c.
Now, if you will turn to you Document Book Number 1, which is on Page 86 of the English and is your Exhibit Number 20, Mrugowski Document Number 10, This is the report which was sent by you which was introduced here in evidence by you, dated 5 May 1942. Now, these entries in the diary concern research Series Number 1; and they were completed on 19 April 1942; and the date of the report signed by you is 5 May 1942. Now, those dates coincide, don't they? Yes or no.
A: The report of the 5th of May is the one about the typhus series 1, yes.
Q: That's right. Now in that report the text starts out:
The tests of four typhus vaccine made by us on human subjects at the instigation of Reich Health Leader Dr. Conti had the following results.
Then you list four vaccines. The following have been tested; A, B,C, and D, which are identical to the four vaccines explained in the Ding diary; are they not, under the research series Number 1, identical language as well as identical vaccines?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in addition in states in the Ding Diary Number 5, ten persons for control. Do you see that, Doctor?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, it states under the entry 19 April 1942, still under research series Number 1, in the Ding diary:
Five deaths, three under control, out of ten
according to the Ding diary, Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: That's thirty per cent, isn't it, three out of ten?
A: No, five deaths from 145 people.
Q: No, pardon me, there were ten persons for a control group; out of the control group three of them died. That's thirty per cent of the control group who died, is that right according to the Ding diary?
A: I misunderstood you, yes.
Q: Now, will you turn again to the exhibit which you offered here in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 20, which is on Page 87 of the English under Section II, Results of the Experiments, (b) Preventive effect of the vaccines.
In the case of sick persons during a typhus epidemic who have not been vaccinated, the average duration of fever has been calculated to be 17 days. The metabolism and the nervous system were considerably affected. The mortality was around 30 per cent.
That coincides with the Ding Diary, doesn't it?
A: Yes, certainly. This is a report on Ding's Series 1, that's what I always said. Of course they would agree.
Q: In the report it also says on Page 88 of the Section 3 that one person died from Behring-normal and one person died from Behring-strong; and it also states in the diary that one person died from Behring-normal and one person died from Behring-strong, doesn't it?
A: Yes, that's right. The some figures have to occur, of course. It is the report on the series of experiments.
Q: That's right. Now, it's obvious that your report contains the information in precisely the same manner as it is contained in the Ding Diary; isn't that right?
A: Yes, that's right.
Q: Four vaccines, two deaths; thirty percent of the control group died?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, as regards this report that you wrote, which was your Exhibit Number 20, you state that Ding reported directly to Grawitz, and Grawitz assigned you the task of rewriting this report.
A: Yes.
Q: In a manner that would be presentable. Isn't that a little fantastic, Doctor, in view of the fact that your secretary states that all reports went through you before they got to Grawitz, and as is shown earlier in this cross examination, all reports which were in evidence here, that were submitted by Ding were addressed to Mrugowsky?
Now, I call your attention to the fact that on your distribution lists on Page 86 of the English in this report dated 5 May 1942, it is addressed to one Reich Leader, Dr. Conti, Berlin, Tiergartenstrasse. How did you happen to send it to Conti?
A: Conti caused it as the document shows.
Q: Well, then you don't exclude the possibility now that Mr. Conti was at the 29 December 1942 conference outlined by Ding, do you? You are reporting on the first experimental series conducted by Ding.
A: That Conti was present at this conference on the 29th of December is not true. We have three documents about this discussion, and not one of them says that Conti was there. It always lists the same people but never Conti. Only Bieber says — and it was doubtless so — that this discussion was held at the instigation of Conti; and from this document we see — and that is the reason why my defense counsel submitted this document — that I did not instigate it.
Q: Just a moment. I'm talking about the conference that you had in Schreiber's office as outlined by Ding and admitted by you as having been there with Schreiber and Gildemeister, Ding, and yourself in an interrogation, and now limiting it here in a cross examination to be only Schreiber, Gildemeister, and yourself.
Now, why did you send this report to Conti, inasmuch as it was the first experimental series of Ding? He was not Conti's subordinate? Why was Conti interested in this?
A: Because Conti instigated this series of experiments. Look at the first sentence of the document. It says on suggestion of the Reich Health Leader Dr. Conti, that he is the man responsible.
Q: And Ding states that Conti was at a meeting wherein it had been established that the need existed to test the efficacy of and the resistance of the human body to the spotted fever serum extracted from egg yolks; since tests on animals are not of sufficient value, tests on human beings must be carried out.
Addressing this report to Conti fits pretty well into the Ding Diary, doesn't it? As a matter of fact, it coincides, doesn't it, Doctor?
A: If Ding talks about the conference on the 29th of December 1941 we know today from the evidence that his statement is untrue and that Conti definitely was not there; but if Ding is talking about some other conference, then, of course, it may be. I don't know what conferences Conti held. I have no idea. I had no official relations with him. At least on the 29th of December Conti was definitely not there; and Ding made a false entry, probably on the basis of misinformation. I don't know where he got the information.
Q: Well, now, going back to this report of yours, the second person that it is addressed to is the Reich Physician SS and Police Grawitz, Berlin, and Grawitz according to you assigned you the task of writing then. Why did you address him as a subsidiary addressee?
A: Yes, that is the distribution list, and every single letter that was sent out had a notation for the information of other people to received the letter and to have the information of all who had received it, since this letter concerning Grawitz primarily, of course, he had to get a carbon copy, and I already told you that it is my opinion that those experiences — these costly experiments — had to be given to the people who had official connections with the subject, and that is why there is such a long list of six persons to whom the letter was sent.
Q: Doctor, this is from the report of one Dr. Joachim Mrugowsky. Why did you prepare it for the signature of Grawitz if he assigned you the task of re-writing Ding's report so he could present it to other people in a more presentable manner? Why did you write it over your name and then address it to Grawitz, when you could have sent it to Grawitz for his signature, and had him address it to the original addresses? Is that a fact of an experience you could lose sight of, doctor?
A: That would have been quite possible.
Q: I think so.
A: That I had agreed with Grawitz with the work, that was not so. Grawitz had his associates sign all the letters with Reich Physician SS and Police, and it was signed "AB" which means "by order" (auf Befehl), or else the office of the SS-Fuehrer is mentioned, as in this case, and then it was written SS Chief Hygienist, and that is only signed at one end, the/name without the notation "by order", and then one had to send a copy to the Chief Hygienist for his private files.
Q: I won't labor on this point any further, doctor. You will notice on page 89 this signature on the page, and on this document there is no word there that states "by order". It is just signed "SS Obersturmbannfuehrer [Lieutenant Colonel]", is that right?
A: No, that is not right.
Q: Then this page is incorrect, is it?
A: It says that "by order". It just said signed "Mrugowsky".
Q: That is signed "Mrugowsky", not "by order"?
A: And it had and was that because the heading is "SS Chief Hygienist".
Q: Why did you send a copy to Genzken, your big chief?
A: In this case I was not writing any letter as Genzken's subordinate but as subordinate to Grawitz, and on his behalf as the heading shows, and the Waffen-SS which used to send vaccine was, of course, quite interested, and in order to have it in the record for researches. That I should like to say that Grawitz himself personally did not receive this letter, which remained in the files of Office 16 until the end.
Q: Now, Doctor, after these people received this letter or report there, six people received it, namely, Conti, Grawitz, Genzken, Gildemeister, Geyer at Kracow, and Demnitz at Marburg. After they read this report that two people had died, did you have any repercussion therefrom?
A: I did not understand the question.
Q: After these people received the reports, did they make inquiry as to these two deaths that are mentioned in this report?
A: No, and that was not necessary because it said here somewhere that the vaccine was used during an epidemic, and on page 87, under 2-B, it says in the first paragraph, in the case of sick persons during a typhus epidemic etc., then at the beginning of the next paragraph, during same epidemic four groups of experimental subjects be vaccinated. That is rather a formulation and it was quite probable. Here the people did not realize that this is an artificial infection. That since the death rate of thirty percent was quite usual at that time in epidemics: later it was lower, but in the beginning it was thirty to fifty percent.
Q: Of course, you do assume that actual research series, one of Ding's, which is comparable to this report, was performed on artificial infected persons for the control group, don't you? According to Ding's diary?
A: I never denied that, and I have explained carefully that at the beginning of this series was the reason for my objecting to Grawitz.
Q: Was it customary for you, whenever you addressed a report to a man like Grawitz, Reich Physician SS and Police, you lied, and that this was the result of typhus epidemic, and when you put out these things you were lying to them in your reports?
A: No.
Q: Now, Doctor, in regard to this report on this, you have stated on direct examination that you can furthermore justify it inasmuch that Dr. Kogon testified here in this courtroom that the subject used in the first two series of experiments were volunteers. Now I am to correct you on that point; that Dr. Kogon stated as follows on that question:
Selection of experimental subjects was not the same at different times, and in the very first period the inmates of the camp were called upon to volunteer. They were told it was a harmless affair and as a benefit they would get additional food. After one or two experiments were conducted, it became impossible to get any volunteers whatsoever,
and then continuing on to say you should select the larger numbers. Now Conti mentioned one or two experiments, not one or two series of experiments, wherein over one hundred people were used. He did not say "series", did he?
A: No, it is exactly what I meant. If you will look at the diary carefully, you will see on page 1 preliminary experiment "A" is discussed. That would be the first experiment according to Conti, and it shows that no one could go to the section, was not possible, it said, and then there could have been no suspicion whatever because nothing done to the people. The second series began on the next day, on 6 January 1942, that is not preliminary test "B", it was the second. That began on 10 January, four days later. The next experiment series is series one, of the 145 people, it can be by themselves, the second series, which you mentioned, and since they were volunteers, that was the first time that diarrhea occurred.
Q: Then you say that Conti meant these 145 people used in the research series one who volunteered, is that right? Is that your contention of the Kogon testimony?
A: That is how I interpret Kogon's testimony, yes.
Q: Well, we will have to bring Dr. Kogon hack again. As you stated yesterday that only since possible to experiment on volunteers, they could not get any more, do you know anything about that?
A: No, I would have to read it up.
Q: Now, Doctor, let's pass on to page 42, Ding's diary, which would be in the German copy 10 January 1943, which is rather out of order, you will find it has to do with yellow fever vaccine tests. Now, Your Honor, do you have that, page 42 of Ding's diary. Now you stated on direct examination that these were tests of vaccines and not experiments. That is what is mentioned here under the date of 10 January 1943, is that correct?
A: Yes, it is a matter of vaccine.
Q: Further you said on direct examination, I suggested the same to Grawitz and that Grawitz ordered it, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, now, if that is a fact merely it is a harmless test and not experiments, that you stated, why did it become necessary to resort to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp for this work?
A: These tests could have been conducted on soldiers just as well. Such tests actually were made on thousands of soldiers. They were not really experiments, only tests of the most harmless nature. In the period of preparation for the campaign in Africa, the training period of the soldiers was so full of physical effort that they could not be put under medical observation for several days because it would be impossible because of some of their training. That was technically impossible. That was the reason why the experiments were conducted on concentration camps, and according to Ding's affidavit the subjects were volunteers, and as a re ward they did not have to work for four weeks.
That was not possible with the recruits, but that in a concentration camp it was quite possible.
I was always of the conviction that these harmless things which made you a temperature of 37.5 degrees, just slightly above normal temperature, one was more doing the prisoners a favor than anything else they didn't have to work and because they got better food.
Q: Ding states here in the diary as follows:
At the Behring Works, Marburg/Lahn, Robert Kock Institute, Berlin, at the Institute of Virus Research of the Supremo Command of the Army in Cracow were commissioned by the Supreme Command of the Army to manufacture yellow fever vaccines for collaborators. Since the live virus is being handled, for safety's sake from each vaccine change a test is to be performed on five persons.
It isn't harmless language, is it?
A: The language is wrong.
Q: Well now, were these matters of any interest to Walter Schreiber, let us say, that is, in his position as plenipotentiary for epidemics and as chief of the Medical Academy?
A: I believe Schreiber obtained his position only in 1943. That was in January, 1943. As far as I remember he obtained that position in July or August of that year.
Q: Then his position as consultant to Handloser and as Chief of the Military Medical Academy, were these matters as elicted here in the Ding diary of any concern to Schreiber? It states here they were in receipt of the Supreme Command of the Army in Cracow and was commissioned by the Supreme Command of the Army at O.K.H. which would be Handloser and Schreiber, whichever it may be. Was it Schreiber, I am asking you?
A: No, it wasn't like that at all. That was purely an SS matter in the preparation for the commitment of troops. To what extent the army, which had already produced such things in the O.K.H. Institute at Cracow, to what extent the Army made similar tests, I don't know. At least as far as I remember I did not sent the report on the tolerance to Dr. Schmidt, an associate of Schreiber, but I always considered it a matter of authenticity. The doctors who would later have to work with the matter therefore had to be trained technically.
Q: Well now, did you in your organization have any sort of a working agreement with the Army for testing of yellow fever vaccine, that is for the O.K.H.?
A: I don't know what you mean.
Q: Well, did you have any sort of arrangement whereby the Army, if they decided they were going to use a particular vaccine, would send it to you to test it to be sure that the vaccine was in order so that they could then inoculate their troops? In other words, did you act as a testing agency for the Army?
A: For yellow fever? It is possible that it was discussed, but it is not so that part of all the production numbers were tested her. These were merely the fractions which were later to be used by the Waffen S.S. There were several divisions. A division has 20,000 men so that means quite a lot of vaccine.
Q: What I am getting at, Doctor, Ding says in his diary the results of the yellow fever vaccine tests are to be sent to Department 16, that is your department, in the SS Fuehrungshauptamt in duplicate, one forwarded to the manufacturer and one to the Supreme Commander of the Army, to Major Dr. Schmidt, Army Medical Inspectorate. Now, did you have some sort of working agreement to tes vaccines for the Army?
A: As far as I recall one was sent to the producer so that he would be informed, and the second was for us.
Q: Doctor, please answer my question. Don't explain that entry. Did you, from your knowledge, ever have a working agreement with the Army to test vaccines for yellow fever at Buchenwald?
A: I told you it is quite possible that it was discussed, that we were going to test the vaccines in the form we have here. That is possible. But any binding agreement that every vaccine was to be tested, no, I know nothing about that.
Q: Did you ever talk to Schreiber about that, did Schreiber ever ask you, Mrugowsky, "Can we have you test all these vaccines for us in your institute at Buchenwald?" Did Schreiber ask you such a thing as that?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to Schreiber about testing vaccines for the Army at Buchenwald?
A: It is possible that I once discussed the execution of these vaccines in Buchenwald with Schreiber, but I cannot say definitely at the moment.
Q: According to this Ding was testing them for the Amy as the reports were to be sent to the Amy. Now, did these organizations contact Ding, Dr. Ding without referring to you, is that what you want us to believe, that it is possible that Ding did this without referring to you at all?
A: No, it is my opinion, or as far as I remember, I told Grawitz that it was necessary to test their technical applicability. I said that it would be good if Ding could work on it and learn something about it, and that was how the matter came up. I never heard of Ding's negotiating with the Army. I don't think that he had an opportunity to.
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honors, it may be necessary for me to use another two or three minutes to complete the term of this subject, and I request to be allowed to go overtime.
Q: Well now, did Gildemeister ever talk to you about these problems, yellow fever testing of vaccine? Do you know whether or not Gildemeister —
A: I certainly never talked to Gildemeister about it.
Q: Did you ever hear or do you know as a fact or did you hear it at any conference or did you receive correspondence to the effect that Gildemeister had performed experiments on human beings to establish the harmlessness of yellow fever vaccines, that is any place, in his institute on volunteers, or any particular phase of experiments, exclusive of concentration camps inmates?
A: No, I only know that the Robert Koch Institute, that Gildemeister was producing yellow fever vaccine shows from this entry in the diary. I din't know about it. I had no very close contact with Gildemeister myself, and I didn't know what work he was doing. Of course, I knew that he was working on viruses but which virus I did not know.
Q: Well now, did the Behring-Werke ever send any sample batches of yellow fever vaccine directly to you?
A: I don't believe so. The packing which Dr. Schmidt described with a long neck, I never saw that myself. I would have had to see it, wouldn't I? Therefore, I don't believe that the vaccine was sent to me. It was probably sent directly.
Q: Well now, did the Behring-Werke or Schmidt or you supply Ding and his deputy, Hoven, here with these yellow fever vaccines to test in his institute, you supplied Ding with these vaccines so that he could make these tests as outlined in his diary. Were they sent to you and then forwarded to Ding, or were they sent directly to Ding, or were they forwarded to the institute in Cracow, or were they forwarded to the Military Medical Inspectorate? How did he get them?
A: There were two possibilities. Presumably, as in other cases, Ding went to the Robert Koch Institute and the Behring Works, personally wrote to them or telephoned to them and asked them to send such and such quantities, and he probably got this vaccine of the O.K.H. through the Central Medical Depot of the Waffen SS, which in turn probably got it from the main medical depot of the army.
Q: All right. Doctor, you state that you didn't know of any working agreement with the army to test vaccines, is that right? Think hard now.
A: It is possible that you could call this a working agreement. I would not want to deny that categorically. It is quite possible that we discussed it, this testing.
Q: All right then, did you ever agree with Schrieber that you would take care of the testing for him in your organization? Yes, or no, Doctor? You can answer that yes or no.
A: In this form, no, but in another form I agreed with him that for our troops or divisions we were going to test vaccine. We were interested in that. For the other vaccine of the army we had no interest and it is that was sufficient for Mr. Schreiber, for if these tests were all right the assumption can be made that the rest is all right too.
Q: Well, Doctor, you make this examination most difficult with this inconvenient memory you have. I want to show you a document now No. 1305, which will be offered for identification as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 469. Now, this document is dated 5 January 1943, five days before the entry in the Ding diary of 10 January 1943 concerning yellow fever vaccine tests. The further we go along, Doctor, the further your presumption or contention that the diary is a fraud is being rebutted, you will notice.
This letter is dated 5 January 1943, to SS Standartenfuehrer [Colonel] Dr. Mrugowsky, Director of the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS:
My dear Dr. Mrugowsky:
We have been informed by Oberstarzt [Chief Physician] Dr. Schreiber that every batch of yellow fever vaccine must be tested on human beings before it is given to the Army. Since we have to deliver 30,000 doses of yellow fever vaccine to the Medical Inspectorate in January, there will be a series of batches during January, which are to be tested on human beings. Oberstarzt Dr. Schreiber has told us that in the future the tests on human beings will be made through your office. We will therefore permit ourselves to send you, at certain intervals, samples of the various batches. We request information as to whether we also have to send the future batches to Dr. Hoven at Buchenwald.
We suppose that also the tests on human beings by President Gildemeister occur in the main for the purpose of establishing their harmlessness. Accordingly, it should be possible to let us know the test results 2 weeks after the samples have been received at the latest.
We thank you very much in advance for your trouble and remain with Heil Hitler I. G. Farbeinindustrie A. G.Dept. Behring works Marburg.
Do you remember receiving that letter, Doctor?
A: Yes, I received that letter. One can understand the events only in connection with the strategic use of the divisions which was intended at the time.
There is danger of yellow fever only in Central Africa. Only those had to be vaccinated who would advance into this region. According to this operational plan those were the two divisions of the Waffen-SS which were near Tunis and were to advance towards Dakar. They had to be vaccinated and equipped first. Therefore, in connection with the preparation for this action it had been discussed that the divisions of the SS were to be given preference and were to be equipped with all necessary things That is, clothing, food, vaccinations, etc. As this letter shows, we were to receive the first batches of production from the Behring Works. That 30,000 doses would not have been sufficient for our needs. Two divisions are 40,000 men and a few of these were to be tested for tolerance, etc. That was purely a Waffen-SS matter.
Q: This document does indicate that your organization had a working agreement with the army, doesn't it? To test the vaccines?
A: No, in this general form that is not correct.
Q: That is not the question, Doctor. This document does indicate that Dr. Schreiber stated the tests for yellow fever will be made through your organization. Doesn't it state that?
A: Yes, we were interested in those which were to be tested. That was an SS interest. On the other hand, we were used for the army in connection with Schreiber and Rodenwald. That explains the matter.
MR. HARDY: This is a good breaking point, Your Honor. I have still further cross examination tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(A recess was taken until 0930 hours, 3 April 1947)