1947-04-08, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

(A recess was taken)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl, defense counsel for the defendant Oberheuser. Your Honor, the defendant Herta Oberheuser is ill. She suffers from influenza; and she asks the permission of the Court not to have to attend the sessions of the Court today. A report by the prison doctor will be submitted to you.

THE PRESIDENT: Upon the request of counsel for defendant Oberheuser, with the understanding that the recommendation by the prison doctor will be submitted, defendant Oberheuser may be excused from further attendance before the Tribunal today.

DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness.

HELMUT POPPENDICK (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY DR. GOERG BOEHM:

Q: What is your name, Mr. Poppendick?

A: Helmut Poppendick.

Q: When and where were you born?

A: On the 6th of January 1902 at Hude in Oldenburg.

Q: On the 13th of November 1946 you submitted an affidavit NO-672, Exhibit for the prosecution 30, English Document Book 1, page 54.

A: Yes.

Q: In this affidavit you stated your personal data, the most important ones. Please repeat your career, your medical career, your medical activities, and all your other activities until the summer, 1935.

A: I studied medicine from 1921 to 1926 in Goettingen, Munich, and Berlin. In 1926 I passed my state examination in Berlin. After my year as an intern I was at the Lang Hospital for one year at Huehlrose in the Mark Brandenburg. After that I went to the University Clinic of Berlin, the first medical clinic of the Charity, to be trained as a specialist for neurological diseases.

I was there until 1932, the last two years as private assistant to Prof. His. At the same time, from 1931 on, in the evenings and Sundays I was working as an ambulance physician in Berlin, that is, in a medical consulting service for accidents and sudden cases of illness, which is set up by the city, in the east of Berlin.

In 1932 I was a specialist for internal diseases. In 1933 I became Oberarzt [Senior Physician], chief physician, at the Virchow Hospital, at the internal section. In the fall of 1934 I went to the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Herlin-Dahlem, for genetics and hereditary diseases, to be trained in hereditary and constitutional diseases. My teacher was Prof. Fritz Lenz. In the summer of 1935 I went as hereditary doctor to the SS.

Q: When did you become a member of the NSDAP?

A: At the beginning of 1932.

Q: And what were the reasons which made you enter the NSDAP?

A: The economic crisis of 1930 and 1931. In all fields increasing chaos became apparent in Germany. Unemployment was increasing; and things were becoming more radical in all fields. As a doctor at the Charity at the private ward and also as an ambulance physician, Rettungsarzt [Paramedic], in the east of Berlin where the workers were concentrated, I had an opportunity to observe the increasing social tension which was developing. And the radicalism and the Communism was developing. The middle class parties were standing aloof. In my opinion no solution of the urgent social questions could be expected from them.

On the other hand, I considered it necessary that every human being who thinks beyond his own welfare, who thinks of the welfare of the people as a whole, must decide at such times on the direction to be taken in the future. Communism preached dictatorship of the proletariat, that is, one class of the population. I did not agree with this. Therefore, I chose a party with another extreme direction which put the welfare of its own people in the foreground in its program, which wanted to reestablish order, which wanted to do away with unemployment.

Those were the reasons why I joined the Party.

Q: When did you become a member of the SS?

A: In the summer of 1932.

Q: And what was your activity in the SS?

A: After a few weeks I became doctor of a Surmbann; and as such it was my duty to train the medical non-commissioned officers.

Q: In what office were you as doctor for hereditary diseases?

A: The office for Population Policy, Amt Fuer Bevoelkerungspolitik, and Erbgesundheits-Pflege of the SS, the Rasse und Siedlungs Hauptamt, which in about a year was taken into the SS, the Main Race and Settlement Office.

Q: And what was the activity in the Main Race and Settlement Office?

A: My duty there was to pass on marriage applications by SS members and their fiancees.

Q: Were there only physicians and medical men in this office?

A: No, in addition to a number of doctors there also were many people who were not medical men and not scientists.

Q: What was the position of the doctors in the Main Race and Settlement Office?

A: The position there was very tense. The doctors were considered specialists with binders who ostensibly did not have clear sight but were too much involved in their school medical knowledge.

Q: What is your opinion in the way of race hygiene?

A: My teacher in 1935 was already mentioned Prof. Fritz Lenz. Lenz had unusually clear and critical intelligence and made a great impression on me. In the field of so-called race hygiene he on principle rejected all compulsory measures. He was frequently attacked for that reason, particularly by the SS people, as I was able to observe in the Main Race and Settlement Office.

Nevertheless, he published his opinions in 1936 in his well-known book. I was definitely a follower of Prof. Lenz; and I always remained so.

DR. BOEHM: In this connection I offer Document HPO 1, an affidavit by Professor Lenz, which is Poppendick Exhibit No. 1, which is on page 1 of the Document Book for Helmet Poppendick. In the first two paragraphs of this affidavit Professor Lenz speaks about his own position in the sphere of a German hereditary science. In my opinion I think he is the only man who is allowed to lecture on this subject. I will not read this document. I will not read the first two paragraphs. In Paragraph 3 Professor Lenz speaks of his knowledge and acquaintanceship with Professor Poppendick. I quote the relevant sentences:

I met Mr. Helmut Poppendick in 1934; he was then taking an 8 months course in the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Dahlem. I also saw Mr. Poppendick frequently during the following years; during the war I had only transitory meetings with him. Once he was my guest together with his wife.

I came to know and to esteem Mr. Poppendick as a benevolent, objective, and justly thinking man.

He was neither a fanatic nor an activist; his whole nature was more inclined toward an inactive attitude.

I remember that Mr. Poppendick frequently spoke very indignantly about Himmler, and that he certainly was not an unconditional follower of Himmler.

I was therefore under the impression that he has remained my disciple in his professional opinions.

That is the end of my quotation. This affidavit was signed and sworn to and certified. I would like to proceed now as to this.

Q: In the framework of your activities in your Main Race and Settlement Office as a doctor, I would like to ask another question; this Sippen-amt [Racial Belonging Office], of that SS, did that have anything to do with the Reichs Sippen-amt, as in the course of the evidence for the defendant Blome was mentioned?

A: No, this Sippen-amt was only for the SS, for the members of the SS. This Reichs Sippen-amt, as far as I know, was attached to the Ministry of the Interior, and had quite different duties. There was no connection.

Q: The doctors of the SS Sippen-amt, in the year 1939, were taken to the office of the Reichs-Arzt [Reich Physicians], is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: And why was that; why did that happen?

A: The reasons were that there were repeated difficulties in connection with the activities of the doctors in the Sippen-amt. In 1938 and 1939 medical work was to be divided up and tripled by having non-doctors assigned to perform the medical judgement of marriage applications for the SS. These non-doctors were to be trained for this purpose, and in order to take away the authority over doctors in the Sippen-amt from non-medical men, it was decided to transfer all the doctors to the staff of the Reichs-Arzt.

Q: Did you do military exercises?

A: Yes, from 1936 until 1939, four weeks every year. I did this in Berlin hospitals, as a doctor, in an internal case.

Q: At the beginning of the war were you recruited to the Army?

A: Yes, I was drafted on the 27th of August 1939.

Q: And what active service did you have?

A: From the beginning of the Western campaign until 1941, I was with the medical department of the 18th Army as a doctor.

Q: And why were you recruited in the year 1941 by the Reichs-Arzt?

A: In the opinion of the leading men the war was finished then, and many doctors of the General SS were reclaimed from the Army by the Reichs-Arzt SS. I was to resume my activity in the Sippen-amt of the Main Race and Settlement Office.

Q: During the following years did you try to go back to active service?

A: Yes, from 1943 on repeatedly.

Q: And with what success?

A: The Reichs-Arzt SS promised me that I would be assigned to the Front. The personnel office of the Medical Office of the Waffen SS was given such an assignment. I know that efforts were made to this effect, but as far as I know these efforts were always unsuccessful, because I had no experience in the East, neither as an officer in a medical company nor in the treatment of the diseases prevalent in the East.

Q: After your return from active service then you became a member of the Reichs-Arzt, and you worked in the Sippen-amt of the Race and Settlement Office, did you not?

A: Yes, I worked in the Sippen-amt again. I worked for the Reichs-Arzt only for a certain number of hours.

Q: Did the Reichs-Arzt make use of your work for its own work, and for which work.

A: It occurred now and again the Reichs-Arzt gave me minor assignments, and they were generally unimportant things. Most often it was social welfare cases. It turned out that in general I worked on complaints from the public about doctors and their activity which were sent to the SS magazine "Das Schwarze Korps," [The Black Corps] which were passed on to the Reichs-Arzt.

They were investigated by the Reichs Chamber of Physicians, and the answer was sent to the person who had written in the complaint. Later there were many inquiries about diseases and steps to be taken in cases of illness, and I dealt with these matters.

Q: But all of these inquiries which came to you went through the Schwarze Korps?

A: Yes.

Q: And when did you become the leading physician of the Main Race and Settlement Office?

A: Probably in the summer of 1941.

Q: And what were your tasks as leading physician?

A: Primarily the adjustment and coordination of personnel between the Front and the Homeland, concerning the doctors who worked in the Sippen-amt. Every new doctors was to be sent to the Front for a certain length of time and the reserve doctors had to be trained. There were only a few doctors who had experience in the field of hereditary diseases. The training of these doctors was one of my duties. Also I had to supervise the doctors and their work in the main welfare office of the SS. The whole supply system of the Waffen SS in 1943 was under the Main Race and Settlement Office.

Q: Is it correct that you went on with your work in the Sippen-amt?

A: Yes, I myself continued to perform the medical work there, and about a hundred to a hundred and fifty applications per day had to be dealt with.

Q: The other leading physicians in the SS, did they have special offices?

A: No, they had no secondary activity.

Q: Your title was Oberfuehrer [Senior Colonel] and your position as leading physician?

A: Yes, there were also leading physicians who had the rank of a general.

Q: Since when is Grawitz Reichs-Arzt or was Reichs-Arzt?

A: From 1936 on.

Q: Did he hold any other offices?

A: He was also managing president of the German Red Cross.

Q: Will you give a short resume of the characteristics and personality of the Reichs-Arzt SS Dr. Grawitz?

A: Grawitz was an energetic and unsettled personality. He talked a great deal, and that was his method when he was carrying on negotiations, simply to talk the other party down. I experienced several times that visitors said afterwards that they had not had an opportunity to present their business, because Grawitz had done all the talking, and then they went away without having had success in anything.

He emphasized the officer very much. He attached great importance to his position as Reichsarzt [Reich Physician]. He demanded absolute obedience. He was generally polite; that he could suddenly become very abrupt and inconsiderate. In the case of persons who had influence somewhere else he acted differently. He liked not only many words but big words and exaggerations, and in general, he acted as if he were a very influential and a very important man.

In the course of time, however one had to get the impression that his position particularly in connection with Himmler was very uncertain. Himmler apparently had no confidence in him. Grawitz's whole being and work turned around his efforts to get into favor with Himmler again. For some reason Grawitz must have been seriously reproached by Himmler, and one noticed repeatedly that he endeavored in everything connected with Himmler or the personal staff to act with painful carefulness. He thought that only he himself could take care of things so that there would be no difficulties with Himmler, and so in all things which were connected with Himmler, he himself took care of them with great carefulness. He opened his mail himself, and he did not let anyone else see it. He no, doubt, wanted to avoid any one else, realizing the actual conditions, for his position with Himmler at least during the War was not very sure, but outwardly he always tried to create the opposite impression that as Reichsarzt he had a very firm and safe position.

DR. BOEHM: In this connection I submit Document HPO-2, an affidavit of Dr. Edwin Jung, who was a collaborator of Grawitz at the beginning of the War. It is on pages 3 to 5 of the Document Book. I offer this document as Poppendick Exhibit no. 2. For the moment I shall only read point number 2. The other paragraphs of this affidavit I shall read at a later point. in paragraph 2 I quote:

The personality of Dr. Grawitz:

I always had the feeling that Dr. Grawitz did not feel too safe in his position and tried to fortify his position by showing himself as a particularly unconditional follower of Himmler. He was correct in his general behavior, amiable and not free vanity.

He showed a certain elegance in appearance and in his concernings that were around him Unconditional submission to Himmler is shown best by the following remark: I was then told me reported to Himmler on the completion of his task of taking over the Red Cross with the following words: "The obedient retriever brings back the hare." From remarks like this one and from his attitude toward Himmler, I gathered again and again that he could not get rid of a continuous gnawing fear for the safety of his position. For three reasons it seems very understandable from a human point of view that he kept important or secret matters to himself or made them known only to the persons directly concerned in order to prevent such matters from becoming public unnecessarily and to prevent others from learning of them unnecessarily.

That is the end of my quotation. This affidavit also has been sworn to, certified and affirmed.

Q: How did Grawitz deal with his business in his office, witness?

A: Grawitz had the mail brought to him by his secretary and, generally, he dictated the replies to her immediately; and in addition when he was present, he usually had quite a large number of visitors who had appointments. They were announced by the secretary or the adjutant, and he then received them and he talked to them alone. At the office of the Reichsarzt there were also many visitors on Red Cross business. One could not keep the various matters separate, but the doctors in charge of the Main Offices (Hauptamter) and the office chiefs on his staff he generally received alone.

Q: How did the reorganization of the office of the Reichsarzt Grawitz come about in 1943?

A: Grawitz wanted to expand his office, no doubt in order to get a more firm foundation for his power. He wanted it to become a Main Office. He tried to have as many medical matters as possible united on his staff. He wanted to have a big staff. He wanted to have a great many people on it, and so in about 1941, he called on a doctor who had been recommended to him as having organizational capacities and who at the same time had experience at the front and connections with the front.

That was Dr. Wille. He had intended later to have Dr. Wille as chief-of-staff in his Main Office. All these efforts of Grawitz, however, were frustrated by the developments of the War. In 1943 Grawitz had to be very modest. This Main Office was never set up, and, consequently, Dr. Wille was sent back to the front. From 1941 to 1943 he had hardly anything to do under Grawitz.

Q: How was the Office of the Reichsarzt organized altogether?

A: In the fall of 1943 a staff was set up for Grawitz by the Reichs fuehrer. Six offices were created. In general, however they did not have very large staffs. That was the Chief clinician. As far as I known, that was only one person. Then there was the chief hygienist who had only a few assistants, then the Chief dentist who had one or two persons working for him, then there was the biggest office actually, the medical quartermaster, the chief pharmacist. His staff with the Reichsarzt had twelve to fifteen people. There was also an office for statistical evaluation of case histories. This office was worked outside of Berlin. I cannot say exactly how many people worked there, Finally there was an office called the Personal Office.

Q: Were all these offices in the building of the Reichsarzt Office?

A: No, aside from Grawitz, there was only the chief dentist and the medical quartermaster in the same building.

Q: In your opinion, would the institution of a Personal have been necessary?

A: No. This office was completely superfluous. I view of the small amount of mail which was received, Grawitz could easily take care of the office work himself.

Q: For what reasons was an office like this instituted then and given to you?

A: After the reorganization, Grawitz said that the Reichsfuehrer had approved six offices for him including a Personal Office. Grawitz wanted to give the office to me. I said that I was the leading physician at the Race and settlement Main office and I could not take on any further responsible activity. Resides, I would not have been interested in general office work. But Grawitz reassured me and said things would remain as they were. He would continue to take care of the small amount of mail which was received by himself with his secretary. I would not have to worry about anything. I would have plenty of time to continue my work in the Main Race and Settlement Office, but he wanted to keep this office, this Personal Office, in order to be able to use it later. So that this position, could not be taken away from him again, he had to give the title to someone. Actually no Personal Office was ever set up, There was no sign in the Building; there was no letterhead. There was no stamp for the Personal Office, and I never used the title "Chief of the Personal Office," and I never called myself an office chief.

Q: Did Grawitz make you responsible for any work within the office for correspondence and all activities of an officer?

A: No, in no way, as I have already said. Not only did he say so to me at the beginning, but afterwards, in the presence of the Secretary Sommerfeld, he often repeated that I did not have to worry about anything, he would take care of the work all by himself, and Miss Oberheuser will be able to confirm that.

Q: What did Grawitz say, that he was to do most of the work himself?

A: Yes; I also said he was a very industrious man, and he once said to me if he did not have the mail, the correspondence of the Reichs-Arzt, then he didn't know what he could do. He felt superfluous as Reichs-Arzt.

Q: Whose subordinate was the adjutant and the secretary of the Reichs-Arzt?

A: They were both directly under Grawitz.

Q: Could you look at correspondence; did you have the possibility to look at correspondence?

A: I sometimes saw the open correspondence. Occasionally, Grawitz gave me a letter and, of course, I saw that.

Q: As chief of the personal office, why was it not part of your work to have to look at the correspondence?

A: First of all, as I said, it was the custom for the secretary to show the mail to Grawitz directly. That was before 1943, and after 1943. And in the second place, Grawitz had forbidden that the mail addressed to him by name should be opened; or mail which was marked secret, or which was in any other way important.

Q: These letters which you emphasized just now, did not concern you as you had secret order and so far as they were sent to Grawitz personally?

A: No, it went directly to Grawitz, And as for the other mail, the opened correspondence I saw only rarely.

Q: Did you get orders from Grawitz to deal yourself with some of the mail, the incoming mail?

A: Only the letters which came from the Schwarze Korps. They were generally sent to me by name and the secretary sorted them out and gave them to me. Grawitz had strictly forbidden me to do anything else independently.

Q: Grawitz, therefore, forbade the secret orders by not letting anybody else open the letters, is that correct?

A: Yes, we all know about this order and Grawitz was always referring to it. Besides, he was very fond of secrecy himself.

Q: As evidence, HPO-3, I submit the literal text, as well as the HPO-4, the excerpt from the examination of General Velmi in the Milch trial, about the exact time when this order was given. This secret order was mentioned by the defendant, was submitted by the defendant Rostock. The secret order, the decree order here corresponds to the text, and was introduced in the International Military Tribunal as Gestapo Exhibit No. 25. Regarding this fact, this need not be marked as a Poppendick exhibit. I quote from the Document HPO-3, Exhibit 25:

1. No one; No office, no officer, maybe informed about a secret matter unless they must be informed for reasons of duty. 2. No office and no officer may receive further information on a secret matter than is absolutely necessary for the fulfillment of their task. 3. No office and no officer may receive information on a secret matter or that part of it which is necessary for them to know, earlier than is absolutely necessary for the fulfillment of their task. 4. It is forbidden thoughtless to pass on, by any general order of distribution, any orders which it is of decisive importance to keep secret.

I quote from HPO-4.

THE PRESIDENT: What is the date of that order, the date is lacking from the copy in the Document Book.

DR. BOEHM: This order in my edition was submitted by my colleague Dr. Merkel, on the 15th of June 1946.

The order, when it came out, your Honor, will become evident from the reading of the next document.

I quote now from HPO-4, as follows:

20 February 1947, of the Tribunal No. II against General Field Marshal Milch, morning session, page 1293. I omit ten lines, and I quote Dr. Bergold's question:

Q: Witness, do you know the so-called Basic Fuehrer Order No. 1?

A: Yes, I know it.

Q: Can you tell me when exactly this decree was issued?

A: On 12 January 1940.

Q: Are you quite sure about this date?

A: Quite sure.

I omit a further eight lines.

A. The order was issued on 20 January 1940. It was meant for one specific case. Its contents were approximately as follows: It broke with the former view, our former view about general issuance of orders. It ran approximately—

That is the end of my quotation.

I omit a further five lines. I quote:

I am able to state the date so exactly because I was dismissed on this day.

MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, in what manner does defense counsel propose to introduce this excerpt from the record Military Tribunal II, that is, the Milch case?

DR. BOEHM: This document which was already the object of an examination in the Milch trial, which was dealt with at that time and showed that the order was issued.

THE PRESIDENT: This should be placed in some form by which it may be received as a certified copy before Tribunal II, or by some method so that counsel for the prosecution could check it if he deems it improper and object to it.

DR. BOEHM: Certainly, Your Honor, I shall do that later.

MR. HARDY: My question, your Honor, is whether or not defense counsel proposes to introduce this and give it an exhibit number, or does he intend to merely put it in the Document Book for the convenience of the Tribunal, thereby requesting the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the testimony set forth in the Milch record?

DR. BOEHM: Yes; certainly, I want to do the latter. I want to submit it as a statement which was made in the Milch trial.

THE PRESIDENT: Then it should be brought before the Tribunal under certification by some authority, and we may take judicial notice of it.

DR. BOEHM: Yes, certainly, I have already expressed, your Honor, that I shall do so.

THE PRESIDENT: I notice that counsel has himself certified that it is a true copy of the testimony before Tribunal II.

MR. HARDY: What I am attempting to determine, your Honor, is whether or not he is going to give it an exhibit number. It is not necessary to give it on exhibit number.

THE PRESIDENT: I understand counsel to say he is not offering it as an exhibit. Is that correct, counsel?

DR. BOEHM: Yes.

DR. BOEMM: In connection with the office order of Grawitz, I submit the document, HPO 5, which is an affidavit by Dr. Carl Blumenreuter, Sanitaets-Zeugmeister (Medical Quartermaster) of the SS. It appears on page 9 of the document book Poppendick, and I offer it as Poppendick Exhibit 3. I quote from the contents of this document:

I, Dr. Carl Blumenreuter, at Groemitz in Holstein, Landhaus Storm, late SS-Gruppenfuehrer [Lieutenant General], have been advised that a false affidavit will render me liable to punishment.

I declare under oath that my statement is true and is given in order to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal, Palace of Justice, Nurnberg.

I was chief of office XV (chemical-pharmaceutical service) in the Medical Office of the WaffenSS until 31 August 1943. From then on, until the end of the war, I was medical quartermaster of the SS in the office of Dr. Grawitz, Reich physician SS. In the preceding years, I was occasionally in the office of the Reich physician on official duty.

I am therefore able to give the following statements about Grawitz's office and the official work there, before and after 1 September 1943.

From 1940 to 1943, the office of the Reich Physician was not very extensive. I was of the impression, that it practically consisted only of Dr. Grawitz himself, who personally settled the affairs submitted to him or to his office. He preferred oral transactions by discussions in his own office without the presence of a third person.

Grawitz's secretary worked in his outer office.

From 1941 onwards I saw Dr. Wille as well as Grawitz's adjutant around Grawitz. Occasionally I saw Dr. Poppendick too. I knew that the latter worked as a physician, in the Genealogical Office (Sippenamt) and as a chief physician in the Racial and Settlement Main Office.

I, myself, thought that the office of the Reich Physician was superfluous during the war, and always expressed this opinion. The medical departments of the main offices worked independently, and as expedient for war requirements. From this it follows, that there was hardly any work for Grawitz. I always felt that his efforts to interfere and to show the necessity for his existence were just as useless as they were disturbing.

In 1941 I learned that Grawitz intended to place his office on a more extensive footing. Through this he also hoped to become chief of a main office. I heard that Grawitz took Dr. Wille on to his staff in 1941 in order to make him his first collaborator, when his desires were accomplished.

On 1 September 1943, Himmler ordered a separation of the staff of the Reich Physician SS and Police. It did not, however, meet the hopes Grawitz had entertained. Nevertheless Grawitz had succeeded in taking over the management of two useful and extensive spheres of work, the pharmaceutic service and the hygienic service, much as I myself had struggled against the incorporation into the office of the Reich Physician. Through this, the office of the Reich Physician received a certain right of existence. This hardly entailed more work for Grawitz, however. On account of this development, Wille resumed his activity with the fighting units.

Through Himmler's new organization an office called "Personal Office" had been newly established among others. This office was nominally given to Poppendick, in addition to his other activities in other departments. I always had the impression that the so called 'Personal Office,' being a superfluous establishment, was a mere designation. For practically nothing changed in Grawitz's office administration in comparison with the usual habits up to September 1943.

I was not aware that a new office had been established, with Poppendick as director, which now dealt with the correspondence of the Reich Physician. As usual, only his secretary was still working in Grawitz's outer office. I received as before documents and any instructions directly from Grawitz, not from Poppendick. Documents with which I was to deal were so marked by Grawitz in his own handwriting, not by Poppendick. If I had something to discuss with the Reich Physician, I went as before directly to Grawitz.

Such discussions nearly always took place in private. On these occasions Grawitz frequently used to hand over or discuss with me those documents from his mail with which I had to deal, or which concerned my special sphere. Grawitz usually took such documents from a portfolio in his private desk. I noticed that Grawitz was always very careful to preserve the prescribed secrecy. He was very particular to settle secret matters personally and orally, if possible, not in the presence of a third person.

Orders could only come from Grawitz. Poppendick had no authority to give me or my subordinates orders or instructions. Poppendick had neither the position nor the authority of a chief of staff. I also did not notice that Poppendick had any other powers conferred upon him by Grawitz.

On the contrary, I was more of the impression that Grawitz even after 1 September 1943, settled all the essential office matters himself and only occasionally gave incidental commissions to Poppendick.

I was never aware that the Reich Physician SS held staff conferences for the purpose of planning experiments on human beings.

Then follows the signature and the certification of Blumenreuter.

MR. HARDY: May it please the Court, I have a question to ask of the interpreting division, whether or not when Counsel refers to "personal office," he intends "personal" office or "personnel" office. I wonder if that is clear, whether the word is "personal" or "personnel."

DR. BOEMM: Quoting from my statement in this connection, there can be no doubt that it was a matter of a chief of the personal office, and not personnel office.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the term "personal office" is a little ambiguous. You might offer some explanation as to just what a personal office is. We understand the term "personnel" as taking in employees; we can imagine what a personal office might be, but some explanation might be helpful.

DR. BOEMM: Perhaps the name "personal office" or the activity of the man in charge of this office, activity connected with the staff of this office. But I would find it most useful to clarify this matter later; I would like to question the Defendant in this matter. Regarding the translation, it should be without doubt that it is not the personnel chief but the chief of the personal office.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may offer an explanation of the term when convenient.

DR. BOEMM: In connection with the questioning of the Defendant, I would like to clarify this matter.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may do so at his convenience.

The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.

(Recess until 1330 hours, 8 April 1947)