1947-04-08, #3: Doctors' Trial (afternoon)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 8 April 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HELMUT POPPENDICK — Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION — (Continued)
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q: I would like to read now from the document which has already been offered, HPO 2, the declaration by Dr. Jung, Part 1, which is also in connection with the Grawitz Office. I quote:
From my own knowledge, I can state the following:
1. Workings of the Grawitz office.
While I was working there, until 1940 (April), the office was not particularly important and business there was of minor importance. In effect, the office exhausted itself in attempts at re-construction work.
From the beginning of the war until I left, I was almost exclusively concerned with the organization and training in appropriate schools and courses of the doctors drafted for war service — I was very frequently outside Berlin. (Munich-Freimann, Stralsund, etc.) The management of the office was roughly as follows:
Unless he dealt personally with the mail, Grawitz used the services of his secretary who sat in the antechamber, to receive and deal with the correspondence.
For important or secret mail, Grawitz used his own safe; he kept the key carefully and never let it out of his sight. It was the task of the secretary to sort the incoming mail, and important letters recognized as such by the return address, or secret letters, especially when addressed to Grawitz by name, had to be handed to him unopened. No one else knew about his current conferences or special tasks in the office, because he dealt with them directly in private with the special advisers who came to report or to work on these matters.
It should be added that Grawitz was kept busy in his capacity as managing president of the German Red Cross and could find only little time to work in his SS office, certainly dealt with many things directly concerning the SS, in his other office.
DR. BOEHM: At a later time I shall submit another affidavit by the chief dentist in the office of the Reichsarzt [Reich Physician]-SS, Dr. Plaschke, and in the interest of speeding up matters, I shall not cross examine this witness although he has arrived a few days ago in Nurnberg.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q: Witness, I would like to ask you now to answer the question of the President of the Tribunal. What difference was there between the chief of the personnel office and the chief of the personal office of the Reichsarzt-SS Grawitz? How do you explain the difference between these two offices in relation to your own position in the office of Dr. Grawitz?
A: The so-called personal office doubtless means an office dealing with the correspondence of the Reichsarzt would have gone through this office. The name personal office is unusual in ministry or military organizations. I imagine that this word comes from Himmler himself who apparently liked new formulations. It means nothing but an ordinary office. A personnel office did not exist under the Reichsarzt-SS. There was the personnel main office, and in this personnel main office there was a branch which dealt with medical matters. It is true that Grawitz had a liaison man in this main office that was the adjutant. This established a connection between Grawitz and the personnel main office.
Q: I think this seems to be clarified. Did you give signatures apart from the correspondence with the Schwarze Korps [Black Corps] in your capacity as chief of the personal office of the Reichsarzt-SS Grawitz?
A: That had nothing to do with my work as chief of the personal office. Before 1943 and afterwards, it happened on various occasions that I signed — that was very rarely. And it was always unimportant things. It happened occasionally that Grawitz did not want to sign some letter and assigned someone else to do it, either the adjutant or Wille or myself. It also happened in a very few cases that Grawitz dictated something which was not finished when he left. If it was a matter of minor importance, then he told the secretary that he did not want to wait for it, that she was to get the signature from me or from someone else who was in the building.
Q: Did you generally receive the order from Grawitz to sign without any special authority in specific matters?
A: No.
Q: From your affidavit as to the person it becomes evident that until the fall of 1944 you were the leading physician in the Race and Settlement Office. Did you receive a successor in the fall of 1944?
A: Yes, that was Dr. E. Reil. He had worked in the Race and Settlement Office earlier. Originally, Reil was to be recalled from the army in '43. He had been drafted at the beginning of the war just as I had been. He was to be recalled because I was to be given an assignment at the front, but the army did not release him and the matter dragged on until the fall of 1944; then he was released by the army and he was given the title Leading Physician in the Race and Settlement Main Office. The head of the Race and Settlement Main Office at the time did not quite approve.
He required me — for the first few months at least — I was to take care of the business of the Race and Settlement Main Office.
Q: Did you receive a front assignment after this, in connection with this?
A: I waited for it from one month to the next, but apparently the disorganization and the scattering of the SS formations had progressed so far that nothing came of it. Moreover, there were difficulties which I mentioned before.
Q: Under Count 1 you are accused of conspiracy. Whom of the co-defendants did you know?
A: 12 of the defendants I did not know at all. By name I knew Professor Blome. By name and by sight I knew Professor Karl Brandt, Professor Handloser, Professor Rostock and Dr. Fischer, but I do not know whether these people knew me. I knew slightly Sievers and Gebhardt and Rudolf Brandt. And I knew only Dr. Genzken and Professor Mrugowsky well, but officially I saw them only rarely.
Q: Did you take part in the sessions of the Consulting Physicians?
A: Yes, I participated in the last two meetings in 1943 and '44.
Q: In these conferences did you take part by order or as a deputy of Grawitz?
A: No, and I never reported to Grawitz, and I would not have attended the meeting in 1943 unless I had made efforts myself to attend it. I took advantage of this as a good opportunity to keep myself informed of current developments as an internist, as far as I had time to listen to the lectures. For that reason I asked Grawitz in 1943 to give me a ticket.
In 1944 there was no ticket available for me any more. With the approval of Grawitz I went to Hohenlychen on my own and tried to get accommodations there. I managed to get billets and I listened to a few of the lectures. I was not an official participant of the second meeting and the lists which have been submitted show this. I am listed only on the billet list but not on the list of participant.
Q: These lists, the accommodation lists and the participant lists, are No. 619, Exhibit 236, on pages 96 and 106 of the German Document Book. Did you talk to one of the co-defendants who took part in these conferences at one of these conferences?
A: No, I didn't know any of them well enough at the time.
Q: You were only a listener at these conferences but not a participant in discussions, or consultations, or decisions, or work?
A: Yes, I merely listened to a few lectures, not even all of the lectures, only the ones in which I was interested. Only the specialists, who were interested, participated in discussions and formulation of decisions, and I was not present because that did not interest me. The people who have merely listened to the lecture left before the discussion.
Q: Were there current consultations in the office of Grawitz of the leading physicians of the SS Main Offices?
A: Yes, in 1942, perhaps, when Grawitz tried to get the medical system of the Main Offices under his control, he called the doctors together about every month, but that was a forced matter; generally some report was offered and the people concerned hardly had time to appear, therefore, only part of them were present as a rule, and at first representatives were sent and later the people concerned remained away altogether.
And so after about 6 or 7 meetings these meetings stopped again. No experiments on human beings or anything like that were ever discussed at these meetings.
Q: These discussions, were they carried on at regular intervals until the end?
A: No, it lasted only a few months. I believe it was in 1942.
Q: The prosecution makes you responsible, especially for the high-altitude experiments; in the time of these experiments which is approximately from March 42 to August 42, were you then chief of the personal office of Grawitz?
A: No.
Q: What activity did you carry out during this time?
A: I was leading physician in the Race and Settlement Main Office at the time, and I was working also in the Sippenamt, the genealogical office.
Q: During this time did you receive an assignment of work of a duty which was in connection with so-called experiments of rescuing in high altitudes?
A: No.
Q: Did you know of a visit of Grawitz to Dachau in order to inspect experimental arrangements of Dr. Rascher, or did you even participate in such a visit?
A: I did not know about it and I did not participate.
Q: Did Grawitz take you along on such visits to concentration camps?
A: No, never.
Q: How often did you visit concentration camps and to what purpose?
A: I was in a concentration camp twice, that was Dachau. The first time was in 1936, rather 1935. There was an inspection for SS officers.
The workshops were visited, the kitchens, the bread factory. They all made a great impression, the prisoners were well nourished. Of course I was curious and looked at them. It made the impression of a modern barracks. There was strict discipline but there was nothing noticeable, at least as far as the things I saw at the time were concerned. Then I was in Dachau again for a short time about in the summer of 1941 for one to two hours. Grawitz had a specialist for tuberculosis whom he had sent to the hospital at Dachau to examine the X-ray pictures of the station of Von Weihern. Someone had said that the doctor in charge had mixed up X-ray pictures and apparently Grawitz was afraid that the Reichsfuehrer might hear about this. Therefore this specialist for tuberculosis was to check the matter, and I was sent along.
I was in the X-ray room of the hospital; and we looked at the X-ray pictures. I did not interfere in any way. It was in 1941. I was wearing the uniform of the General SS; and I was therefore treated as a civilian. The X-ray room was modern. Everything was very clean. I glanced at the tuberculosis ward which was next door. We had to go past it. The patients were lying in single beds. The beds were not one above the other. The patients looked like the patients in the tuberculosis ward in any hospital; and I didn't see anything else. At least I had no unfavorable impression in any respect from these visits of mine, which, I admit, were brief visits; and I was never in any other concentration camp.
Q: Did you have anything to do with the personal relation of Rascher between the transfer of Rascher to the Waffen SS?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever take part in a conference which was hold in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium, the Reich Air Ministry, about experiments of Dr. Rascher.
A: No.
Q: Did you have any knowledge of any kind of criminal high altitude experiments at Dachau?
A: No, I learned of that here.
Q: You are furthermore charged by the prosecution with co-responsibility in freezing experiments during the time of the finishing of these freezing experiments, according to the prosecution. That must have been May 1943. You did not have the title "Chief of the Personal Office"?
A: No.
Q: How did it then come about that you, as the records of Rascher state, took part in that discussion between Grawitz and Rascher. This is Document 320, Prosecution Exhibit 103, English Document Book 3, page 115.
A: I did not attend this conference from the beginning. As a rule Grawitz talked alone to his visitors. I was called in later; and there was a special reason for that.
Q: Did you as a rule take part in these discussions, the discussions which took place in Grawitz's office?
A: No. As I have already said, in general he talked alone to his visitors; but a few times it happened that he called someone in, some officer who happened to be in the building. That was connected with his fears that he might have difficulties with Himmler if he noticed that the other side had some influence with Himmler; and if there were difficulties in such a discussion, then he had the secretary call someone in.
Q: Why did Grawitz do that?
A: Probably from the experience that his position with Himmler could be influenced unfavorably by one-sided reports.
Q: Had you known Rascher before?
A: No, I did not see him either before or after.
Q: What was the course of this discussion as to Grawitz after you had been consulted?
A: After I had been called in Grawitz instructed me briefly. He said that this was about Rascher; that this man had experience in the field of freezing; and that the Reichsfuehrer had told him to draw up a memorandum on cold for the troops. In the course of the discussion while I was present, there was a very tense tone on both sides. Grawitz was opposed to a doctor working independently in the Ahnenerbe [Ancestral Heritage] without his having any knowledge of it; and he required of Rascher that he should at least inform him. But Rascher refused to do so rather energetically; and he clearly said that the Reichsfuehrer had given him the assignment and that he was directly under the Reichsfuehrer. Then I myself said that as doctors in the Sippenamt we had been independent up to 1939 but that then we had been put under the Reichsarzt as it was generally customary in the military that all medical matters should go through the same channels.
Then Grawitz said he could not publish this memorandum unless there was extensive experience with the troops themselves in the east. It was the completely new formulation of the directives for the treatment of cold, completely different from what had been customary up to then. That much for the discussion. Later I did not hear anything about any memorandum or about Rascher's further experiences.
Q: But you were supposed to have found out at this discussion what experiments Rascher had made?
A: As far as I was personally concerned, nothing was said about experiments which Rascher had conducted.
DR. BOEHM: In accordance with these discussions I herewith submit a photostatic copy of the Document 1578-PS, page 5 to 9. By the document 1578-PS these are notes made in handwriting by Dr. Rascher, which refer to the same discussions which were mentioned in the former examination. Like in document 320 this is on page 36 of the Document Book, HPO. I offer it as Poppendick Exhibit number 4. In order to expedite matters I shall not read this document.
Q: Witness, what impression did Rascher make on you in his behavior and his attitude towards Grawitz?
A: The visitor was a young doctor. His conduct was noteworthy. He was arrogant; he treated Grawitz like an equal. He must have had protection somewhere.
Q: Do you remember in the minutes referring to Rascher of a quotation:
Yes, I've asked the Standartenfuehrer [Colonel] Sievers to come to my place on various occasions in order to receive information. After all, all medical matters end with us.
A: No I could not have said that in that form. I did not have any opportunity to call Sievers in to me, since he was not a doctor and belonged to quite a different agency.
Besides, I do not recall that before 1944 I ever talked to Sievers. He will probably be able to tell us about that when he is examined.
Q: When was this discussion between Rascher and Grawitz at which you were later consulted?
A: That was in January 1943 shortly before the cold experiments were completed.
Q: Did you ever receive a report about these cold experiments, or did you have anything to do with Rascher after this discussion had taken place?
A: No, I did not learn of the cold experiments through a report or in any other way.
Q: Did the Reichsarzt receive an invitation to the conference of the doctors in Nurnberg?
A: I myself know nothing about this. According to the evidence which has been submitted here, no one was present from the office of the Reichsarzt.
Q: Do you know the two SS participants Petersen and Murtung?
A: I know both of them slightly as SS doctors.
Q: Did these two not report to you about this meeting or make any remarks about criminal activities?
A: No, I saw these two only rarely and spoke to them very little.
Q: Did Murtung and Petersen report about this meeting to Grawitz?
A: I know nothing about that.
Q: The prosecution charges that you demanded such experiments with cold and drying as assistant of Grawitz.
A: That's out of the question. I had nothing to do with the technical matters in these discussions. I was merely called in as a witness. Besides, no experiments were mentioned while I was present. It is true that Grawitz emphasized that extensive experience was necessary, especially with the troops in the east, before this new method of treatment could be introduced.
Q: Did you know that SS doctors and Mountain troop doctors collaborated on these questions?
A: No.
Q: Did any orders exist as to this which went through your hands?
A: No.
Q: Did you know about Grawitz having freezing experiments carried out in his presence or also, perhaps, what orders he gave to this effect?
A: No, I know nothing about that.
Q: Here you are charged by the prosecution with malaria experiments which took place in Dachau from 1942 to 1945. Were you at Dachau at that time?
A: No.
Q: The witness Vieweg spoke about written reports of Schilling's which sent to Grawitz. Did you know anything about this correspondence between Grawitz and Schilling?
A: Only because in 1942, I think it was, I frequently saw letters sent from Schilling to Grawitz; but these letters were marked "Personal" and were opened by Grawitz himself.
Q: During later years did you notice anything about the correspondence between Grawitz and Schilling?
A: No. At least I did not notice it later. It must have been in 1942 when I noticed a few such letters.
Q: These letters, therefore, did not go through you, so that in this correspondence between Grawitz and Schilling you had no knowledge?
A: No, these letters went directly to Grawitz personally. Even the secretary did not open them.
Q: Did you know Prof. Schilling?
A: I knew that Prof. Schilling was one of the well-known specialists for tropical diseases. I also knew that he was working at the Robert Koch Institute for Infectious Diseases. I believe that in 1942, I once saw him at Grawitz's Office.
Q: Did you speak to him?
A: He didn't know me.
Q: Did you have anything to do with him?
A: No, I had nothing to do with him. I did not knew him.
Q: What did you know of Schilling's activities in Dachau?
A: I somehow heard—I think it was from Grawitz himself—that Schilling was carrying on special investigations concerning immunity in malaria which he had begun in Italy and which he was continuing in Germany. It is possible that Dachau was mentioned.
Q: Did you know that Schilling infected human beings with malaria?
A: No.
Q: Did you not know then from the fact that Schilling worked at Dachau—did you not have to know from this fact that he infected inmates?
A: I had no impression of his special research. I am not a specialists in this field; and I did not think of it very much. To me Schilling was a famous man; and it never occurred to me that what he was doing could in any way be illegal.
Q: Did you know that Grawitz had been with Schilling at Dachau as becomes evidence from the documents in this trial?
A: No, I never learned anything about that, Grawitz occasionally went on trips as president of the Red Cross. He visited his provincial offices or Red Cross hospitals. And I assume that he went there when he was on such a trip.
Q: According to a copy of the documents submitted by the prosecution a man called Ploetner must have worked with Schilling. Did you know a man by that name?
A: I knew Ploetner superficially. I knew that he was a lecturer at the University of Munich and that he was a SS doctor. I don't remember what he looked like. I'm sure I would not recognize him. I saw him once or twice in Grawitz office.
Q: At what occasion was this?
A: Once I was called in to a discussion in Grawitz's office between Sievers and Ploetner. This was the case of Mrs. Del Franco, which was discussed on this occasion.
Q: What was it about this woman Mrs. Del Franco?
A: Mrs. Del Franco advocated a new cancer cure. Grawitz had obtained some of this drug from her and had it tested. If I remember rightly, iodine and bismuth were contained in this drug. Then Grawitz sent me to Prof. Auler. He was the director of the Cancer Clinic at the University of Berlin in the Charitee [Charity]. I knew him from the time when I worked at the Charitee. I was to ask Prof. Auler about his opinion on this drug, whether there was any prospect of success. Prof. Auler said to me that he himself had no experience with it but he knew that in the early history of the treatment of cancer doctors had tried and recommended this drug. He himself would conduct experiments at his clinic with it on patients who had been given up and who were suffering from cancers on the surface, which were easily accessible. If I am correctly informed, however this was never done because soon thereafter the Berlin clinics, including the clinic of Prof. Auler, evacuated their patients away from Berlin.
Q: Was this the end of this discussion?
A: No. Grawitz talked about other medical discoveries. He mentioned a number of examples where medical advances were due to non-medical people and were later accepted by doctors. He also pointed out frequently about white pills — accident played a role in research. He mentioned the discovery of insulin by two young American doctors after the World War. It had been known for twenty years what would cure diabetes, what the cause was; but all attempts to obtain an extract had failed, although many well-known scientists had tried to obtain it — and now these two young Americans who had come back from war had the good fortune to discover an effective substance because they happened to combine the proper ingredients.
I believe they took the glands from animals and put alcohol and some acid on it; and that happened to be the secret. This prevented the digestive juices from destroying the insulin. Grawitz discussed that at some length. He was a metabolism expert. Then he said that one should not reject everything that is suggested by laymen just simply because it comes from laymen but one should test it with the necessary critical attitude.
Q: At this discussion Sievers was also present. Did you know Sievers?
A: Yes, Sievers was there; but I know him only slightly; and aside from this discussion I believe I saw him only once. Then there were the few times I talked to him on the telephone when he called up our office.
Q: What did the entry mean which Sievers made in his diary, 3546PS, Exhibit for the prosecution 34, page 34, page 142 of the 8th of September 1944:
Ploetner remains at our disposal.
Apparently that was a telephone discussion.
A: I cannot say what that means exactly; but I do remember that Sievers called me to the telephone a few times.
He called up from his office—I believe it was in Southern Germany—and wanted to talk to Grawitz. In these cases Grawitz was himself talking on the telephone at the time. Grawitz used to carry on very long telephone conversations. Sievers had been waiting for some time on the telephone and was afraid that his conversation would be interrupted. Then he had me called to the phone and asked whether I couldn't go in to Grawitz's office and ask him what Sievers happened to want to know. This must have been one such case.
Q: On the 23rd of October 1944, on Page 281, the entry:
By telephone with Poppendick transfer of biological experiments with Ploetner. First of all, as submission Prof. Friese for discussion.
What does that mean?
A: That was no doubt a similar case he also called up and wanted to talk to Grawitz and then talked to me. He was afraid the telephone connection was to be broken. He used me to ask Grawitz. Today I cannot say, of course, what it was about.
Q: Do you know what biological experiments were those of Professor Friese?
A: No, I cannot say that either. It is possible it was pectin research.
Q: Was this Professor Friese only on pectin experiments, did he not have anything to do with the N-question?
A: Professor Friese, was a chemist, I believe, from the Brunswick Technical College. He was in contact with Grawitz. I did not know him well. I saw him perhaps once. I believe he was to pass an opinion on this N-substance.
Q: Did you know Professor Friese?
A: As I said, I saw him perhaps once briefly in the office of the Reich Physician.
Q: Did you otherwise have anything to do with this matter, or did you receive any further knowledge about it?
A: No, I have nothing to do with the technical matters. I just happened to be called upon briefly in such matters.
Q: Therefore, you did not have to deal with this matter particularly?
A: No.
DR. BOEHM: As evidence as to the entries in the Diary of Sievers I submit as Document Exhibit HPO 6, which is affidavit of defendant Sievers, which is on page 12 of the Document Book Helmut Poppendick, and I offer this document as Poppendick Exhibit No. 5. Because of knowledge of the High Tribunal I shall not read it in order to speed up matters.
Q: You are charged with special responsibility in sulfanilamide experiments; before this conference of consulting physicians in the year 1943 did you have anything to do with sulfanilamide experiments, or did you know in anyway of such experiments from the manner of which Gebhardt said they went to Grawitz?
A: No, I learned nothing of that.
Q: Did you know before that a lecture on such experiments had been intended on this conference?
A: No, I learned that only at the meeting itself, as all the people present did.
Q: And what impression did you have of this lecture or this paper?
A: I knew Professor Gebhardt as one of the leading scientists in the field of surgery. I had the impression that this was a purely scientific investigation to clear up an essential war problem. I learned of details only then. That is insofar as I learned of them at all here.
Q: But Gebhardt has expressed that these were experiments to be carried out on persons who were sentenced to death.
A: Yes, he said so.
Q: What is your answer to this question to carry out experiments on people sentenced to death?
A: I cannot pass judgment on the right to carry out such experiments. I must leave that to the leading scientists and the state authorities, but I can imagine that in times of emergency, such as war times, if problems cannot be solved in any other way, such experiments may be justified. The state, of course, had to create the legal basis for it.
Q: Did you know the defendant Fritz Fischer well who held this lecture at this conference of the Military Academy?
A: No, I had just seen him.
Q: Did you know the defendant Fischer at the Reichsarzt?
A: No.
Q: Did Fischer talk to you about these experiments either before or after?
A: No.
Q: Did Professor Gebhardt talk to you about sulfanilamide experiments at any time?
A: No, Professor Gebhardt did not talk to me either.
Q: And also not later, after the conference of consulting physicians in 1944?
A: No. My connection with Professor Gebhardt was only a very superficial one. He hardly knew me. He did not speak to me. I was not an equal.
Q: Did Grawitz carry out experiments at Ravensbruck at which you accompanied him?
A: I knew nothing about any such visits of Grawitz to Ravensbruck. At least I did not accompany him.
Q: During the time of the ending of these experiments of sulfanilamide did you bear then the title of Chief of Personal Office?
A: No, I received the title of that in March of 1943.
Q: Your only knowledge of sulfanilamide experiments, therefore, if I may summarize, comes from the lecture of Fischer at the meeting in 1943, which you attended, as many other people did?
A: Yes.
Q: According to the indictment you are charged with responsibility for sea water experiments; did you know the correspondence between Grawitz and Himmler of June or July 1944, in which experiments are mentioned carried out on gypsies and other inmates, there where they also made use of sea water?
A: No, I learned of those letters only here.
Q: Did you know anything about a correspondence between the authorities, where it is charged by the indictment about making drinkable all sea water?
A: No.
Q: Did you have anything to do with the planning or carrying out of such experiments at all?
A: No, I did not.
Q: In a letter from Sievers to Grawitz, No. 182, Exhibit 137, English Document Book 5, page 23, the adjutant of Grawitz is mentioned with whom the co-defendant Biegelbeck is supposed to have got in touch; did the adjutant tell you anything about this matter at all?
A: No, the adjutant did not talk to me about it.
Q: Did you know one of the parties in these experiments of the Luftwaffe who are made responsible by the Prosecution for participation in these experiments?
A: No, I knew none of them.
Q: I may therefore in conclusion ask you, you have no knowledge whatever of such experiments as have been mentioned here, which were carried out on inmates at Dachau in order to make sea water drinkable?
A: No.
Q: You are also charged as particularly responsible in Jaundice experiments; did you know of any connection between the Reichsarzt with other people in order to carry out experiments on inmates for research in the epidemic jaundice?
A: No, I knew nothing of such negotiations.
Q: Did you know Dr. Dohmen who was mentioned in connection with such experiments?
A: No, I did not know him.
Q: Did you know anything about the transfer of cultures of hepatitis germs?
A: No, I never heard anything about it.
Q: Did you know anything about experiments made on inmates for the research on the epidemic jaundice?
A: No, I never heard anything about experiments on prisoners.
Q: Did you know anything of this, that eight men who were sentenced to death, criminals, that these criminals were to be infected artificially?
A: No, I knew nothing about that.
Q: Did Grawitz ever talk to you about these questions?
A: No.
Q: You know no facts therefore from which you can conclude that such criminal experiments for research of epidemic jaundice were made?
A: No.
Q: You are furthermore charged as particularly responsible in the element of sterilization; did you know any of the persons who were mentioned by the prosecution in connection with sterilization experiments?
A: No, I knew none of them.
Q: Did you know Gerlang?
A: No.
Q: Did you know Dr. Maddaus?
A: I had read the name "Maddaus" in the Medical Journal.
Q: Did you know Dr. Koch?
A: No, I did not know Dr. Koch.
Q: Who was Schopper, in Document NO-054, Exhibit 144, English Document Book 56, page 6, in the name Schopper was mentioned?
A: Schopper was a young SS doctor who was with the Reichsarzt for a few weeks. That was about 1942. He had fallen ill at the Front. If I remember correctly Wille knew him. After he had been released from the Hospital at Berlin he was not to go back to the Front directly. He was to be assigned to an office first where he could recuperate. In this way Dr. Schopper came to the Office of the Reichsarzt briefly, where he likewise had nothing to do.
Q: Schopper applied to the Personal Staff of Himmler obviously after he received knowledge of Document NO-036, Prosecution Exhibit 143, Document Book 6, page 5, after he received knowledge of this document; how could this happen considering that Grawitz kept secret such delicate matters, and dealt with it himself?
A: This matter about sterilization by drugs which I saw here in the trial for the first time, is an open matter and nothing can be seen from it except that there is perhaps a new method of sterilization of people who legally had to be sterilized. How Schopper got this letter I do not know, perhaps he saw it when the adjutant had it and took an interest in it. He must have had a personal friend in the Personal Staff to whom he turned. That is something quite unusual, and was actually forbidden.
Q: From the first letter from Himmler to Pohl, NO. 036, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 143, it becomes evident that Pohl supposedly was to get in touch with the Reichsarzt in order to carry out experiments; from the evidence material here it seems to become evident that Pohl had no connection with Grawitz, but that the matter was only discussed with him by his leading assistant, Dr. Lolling; did you know this man Lolling?
A: I knew him slightly. I often saw him at Grawitz' office when he was leaving after he had talked to Grawitz.
Q: Did Lolling speak to you about this or any experiments in concentration camps?
A: No, I had no connection with Lolling.
Q: Did you know about experiments in concentration camps about sterilization with X-ray?
A: No, I knew nothing about that.
Q: Did you know Dr. Schumann?
A: No, I did not know him.
Q: Is Professor Klauberg known to you?
A: Yes, I knew Professor Klauberg. In 1941, approximately. Himmler in the case of a number of SS wives and fiancees had ordered treatment by Professor Klauberg. They were cases when these women were sterile, according to the opinion of the doctors. In these cases the doctors expressed misgivings, which were recorded in the opinion of the Sippenamt [Genealogy Office] doctor, but all cases where there were misgivings had to be turned over to Himmler for his personal decision; and then in about six or eight cases Himmler wrote on the records, "Treatment by Professor Klauberg, Koenigshuette." These women were then sent to Professor Klauberg for treatment, but this stopped pretty soon. After 1941 I heard no more about these cases.
Q: What kind of a method was this which was used by Professor Klauberg?
A: It was a kind of hormone injections. It was a special system which he had developed.
Q: In a letter of Dr. Grawitz to Himmler about treatment of female sterility there were a number of other doctors mentioned, Professor von Wolf, Professor Ehrhard, Professor Schulze, and so forth; do you know anything about that?
A: Yes, Grawitz had officially informed the Race and Settlement office that in the future in the treatment of sterile wives of SS members these doctors who were named were to be called upon, and there was a specialist for women's diseases for each district of Germany named.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, defense counsel just made reference to a letter from Grawitz to Himmler regarding sterilization. I would like to be in formed to what he is referring to.
I have no knowledge of any such letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel inform the counsel for the Prosecution and the Tribunal to what he refers?
(no response)
The Tribunal suggests that counsel inform the Tribunal and counsel for the Prosecution as to the Document to which he refers?
DR. BOEHM: Your Honor, I cannot determine that at this point, but in the course of my examination I shall present and make known the letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution should like to know if this letter is available, has it been a Prosecution exhibit and to what it refers. I have no idea as to what is referred.
DR. BOEHM: I shall explain that.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel proceed to enlighten the Tribunal and counsel?
DR. BOEHM: Yes.
Q: What else do you know of Professor Klauberg?
A: I know nothing else about Professor Klauberg.
Q: Did you know about any other sterilization experiments which were supposed to have been carried out in concentration camps, and which were of a criminal nature?
A: No, I know nothing about them. If I had heard anything about sterilization I would have had to assume it was sterilization according to the valid laws.
Q: This, after all is a matter which deals to a certain extent with matters concerning population; was it not that Grawitz consulted you in these population and racial matters?
A: No, I was not an advisor of Grawitz in this sense. In the first place Grawitz did not accept any advice, also not in this field. He had his own particular ideas. Moreover these were matters of the so-called negative population policy, things which were foreign to me, to my whole training which I had obtained from Professor Lenz. In the Race and Settlement office I was concerned only with the positive matters. Sometimes I tried to present Professor Lenz's views to Grawitz, but I soon gave that up because he said that Professor Lenz was an academic man and refused to accept his ideas. We never talked about those things.
Q: You are further charged with further responsibility in typhus experiments; do you know that Buchenwald inmates were infected with typhus bacillus quite intentionally?
A: No, that was unknown to me.
Q: Did you know that Ding was active in Buchenwald?
A: Yes, I knew that. I knew that there was a Hygiene Institute in Buchenwald at which Ding was working.
Q: What do you know of Ding's activity in Buchenwald?
A: I do not know any of the details of this work, but I learned once that he was producing typhus serum, or a vaccine against typhus, according to a new process, which quantitatively had greater results.
Q: Did you know Ding?
A: Yes, I met him frequently in Berlin at the office, and a few times I talked to him briefly.
Q: What did you talk about?
A: I don't remember, unimportant things. Ding was a cheerful person, and we exchanged greetings and discussed unimportant matters briefly.
I saw him only when he was leaving Grawitz. I met him in the hall.
Q: How often was he with Grawitz?
A: I can't say exactly. I myself saw him there three or four times.
Q: Did Ding not talk to you about his typhus experiments?
A: No, never.
Q: You signed a report about typhus by Ding [illegible], Number No-582, is Exhibit 286, with your own [illegible] does the signature of this letter mean?
A: You said "a report." this was not a report. It was not a report on experiments. Otherwise it would have had a return address, a date; it would have had the address of the addressee and at the end there would have been a signature, and besides that, it would, no doubt, have been marked "secret". This was not the case. It was quite obviously the manuscript of a scientific publication. Such manuscripts had to have two stamps, one from the superior medical agency that there were no objections to the publication, and, secondly, there had to be a censorship stamp from a propaganda agency.
Q: How did this publication reach you?
A: I cannot say. Certainly it did not reach me directly. Probably Ding sent it to Mrugowsky. In any case, Mrugowsky had seen it beforehand since he was the specialist in this field and since the work had originated from his institute. Then Mrugowsky made a notation that there were no scientific objections to publication and sent it on to Grawitz, and Grawitz read it and then, no doubt, Grawitz gave it to me saying that the paper could be published and I should put the stamp on it. Then the stamp of the counterintelligence office in the SS Operational Main Office was put on it and then the paper was sent back to Mrugowsky who passed it on to Ding.
Q: Those publications which are mentioned here, did you read these?
A: I read it here, and I determined that I had definitely not read it before. I am sure I read only the summary, as one usually reads scientific articles in which one is not particularly interested.
I am not a specialist. I have no experience in the field of typhus. I was not interested in the details and was not able to evaluate them correctly.
Q: Did you have the permanent order or assignment to stamp all scientific publications?
A: No, not in general, but it happened that Grawitz gave papers to me to stamp.
Q: Were you a member of a special committee for typhus and virus research which was under the leadership of Ding?
A: No, I do not know of any such committee. I was not a member of any such committee, and in view of my complete lack of qualifications, I cannot see why I should have been put on any such committee if it had existed.
Q: In this connection, coming back to the evidence for the Defendant Handloser, especially to the affidavit of the Defendant Poppendick, HA-27, Handloser Exhibit No. 12, which is on page 17 of the Document Book. Helmut Poppendick, I do not intend to read anything from that. The witness, Balachowsky, in his affidavit 448 maintains — this is Exhibit for the Prosecution 291, English Document Book 12, page 60 — that you were Obergruppenfuehrer [Lieutenant General]. Is that correct?
A: No, I never reached the rank of a general. The mentioning of my name in this context must be a mistake. Balachowsky got his information from Kogon and he must have confused the name.
Q: Did you hear the lecture by Ding about typhus at the conference of consulting Army physicians in the year 1943? This is the same lecture, surely, to which Dr. Rose took objection.
A: No, I did not hear Ding, and I was not present at any lectures of the hygiene section at these meetings.
Q: The witness, Kogon, said when asked by the Defense that no reports about typhus experiments were submitted to Poppendick. This is in the English records, page 1266, German records, 1288. No furthermore says at the examination by the Prosecution, page 1288, English book, German book, 1307, that he had sent reports to Grawitz, and Poppendick received a copy of this report. There is a disagreement apparently between these two statements. What have you to say to this?
A: I can only declare that I had nothing to do with typhus experiments or reports on them When asked by Dr. Doerr, Kogon answered that no report was sent to me. His second contradictory statement which he made about half an hour later I can explain by the question asked by the Prosecution. Kogon was asked whether reports were sent to Grawitz. Kogon answered "yes", and probably the Prosecution showed him the records, and he knew that I belonged to Grawitz's staff, so that in answer to the next question — and Poppendick received a copy — he also answered "yes". I cannot understand why within a short time he could make two directly contradictory statements. In answer to the first clear question as to whether I received reports on typhus, he said "no".
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it is respectfully requested Defense Counsel state the page number on which these contradictory statements of Kogon's appear in the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel's request is reasonable. Will Counsel for the Defendant furnish Counsel with the page numbers where these statements may be found?
DR. BOEHM: I did that already, and it was here a matter of record on page 1266 and the German record on 1288, and in the reexamination by the Prosecution it was the English record, 1288, and the German one was 1307.
At this opportunity I should like to come to the letter and to mention it here, a letter which I have already mentioned in connection with Klauberg. It is in German Document Book 6, Document NO-214, page 48. This is a letter from Grawitz to Himmler which refers to Klauberg.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q: In connection with what has been said, I would like to ask you: Did you have any connection at all with typhus research or other diseases which made it possible for you to recognize that criminal experiments in these fields had been made?
A: No.
Q: You are, furthermore, charged by the Prosecution with responsibility in experiments with poisons. Did you ever visit the concentration camp Buchenwald in which experiments with poisons were supposedly made, according to the statements of the witness, Kogon, in December, 1943, until October 1944?
A: I never entered the concentration camp Buchenwald.
Q: Did you not in any way receive knowledge either orally or by writing of these experiments with poisons?
A: No, I received no knowledge of them.
Q: Furthermore, it was stated by the Prosecution that a special experiment was made by the Reich Criminal Police Office in September, 1944, in which five persons were supposed to have taken part. These were experiments with aconitin. Did you know anything about this letter of Mrugowsky to the Criminal Technical Institute, or did you know anything about any other letters? This letter was document number 201, Prosecution Exhibit 290.
A: I know nothing about this letter of Mrugowsky's, and I did not see any other correspondence about it.
Q: About all this matter you only received knowledge after your arrival in Nurnberg, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Also, you are charged with responsibility in experiments with incendiary bombs. Did you know anything about any experiments in Buchenwald on human beings in which incendiary bombs were used?
A: No, I did not.
Q: The witness, Kogon, in this connection spoke of an experimental ward 5. Was there a special office in the office of the Reichsarzt in which such experiments were planned and approved?
A: I know of no such office. I do not know what kind of work this office would have had to do. Approximately Thirty-five letters which refer to Grawitz, Grawitz no doubt answered or passed on personally.
Q: In your opinion, witness, what was this experimental station 5 in Leipzig which supposedly had the authority for experimentation in concentration camps which was mentioned by Kogon?
A: This is quite obviously confusion with the so-called research section V, Professor von Kennel. That is the initial of his name. This was located in Leipzig.
Q: What do you know about von Kennel and his activity?
A: Professor von Kennel was the rector of the skin clinic of the University of Leipzig. Besides that he was one of the best-known specialists for the development of now medicines in the so-called sulfonamide series.
Q: What did von Kennel have to do with this experimental station 5?
A: For years at his clinic he had a special research laboratory, to so-called research section V, and in those chemical laboratories he carried on research on sulfonamides in addition to his work as clinic.
Q: Was he in any connection with the SS?
A: As far as I know, he received financial support from the Waffen-SS during the last years of the War. As far as organization is concerned, however, his work were not incorporated in the SS.
Q: Do you know whether this research department had any connection with concentration camps?
A: If I remember correctly, he received animals from the hygiene institute at Buchenwald. These animals were very difficult to obtain during the War; probably Professor von Kennel corresponded with Ding or the hygiene institute on this matter, and Kogon probably saw this correspondence and saw the letterhead "Research Section V", but he didn't know what it was, and he read it as "Research Section" Roman numeral V, and then he thought that was an experimental station roman Number V of which he talked so much here.
Q: Can you find an explanation why Kogon connects you with this office?
A: As far as I recall, I once sent a letter to Ding on behalf of Grawitz, and I passed on von Kennel's request for experimental animals. On the basis of such harmless letters, Kogon probably confused these things. He thought that I was the man in charge of all such experiments.
DR. BOEHM: Document HPO-13 in Document Book Helmut Poppendick, page 35, contains the corresponding excerpt from this book. I offer this document as Poppendick Exhibit No. 6. Kogon writes in his book "The SS State" you had signed as responsible for this department in which the experiments were carried out.
On the witness stand Kogon did not maintain this, and what is your opinion?
A: I can only repeat that I was not responsible for research section V of Professor von Kennel nor for any alleged research section under the Reichsarzt, that I had no responsibility in those connections.
Q: With the exception of your relation to the supply of experimental animals, you had nothing to do with this experimental stationed, did you?
A: No, I cannot remember anything else.
Q: Also not with incendiary bomb experiments?
A: No.
DR. BOEHM: Explaining this department V, in connection with this I submit this document which is an affidavit by Dr. Kimmig, HP-8 and also HP-9, which is an affidavit by Professor von Kennel. Both of these documents are on page 22 and 24 of the document book Poppendick. I offer them as Poppendick Exhibits No. 7 and 8, and I would like to read these documents. Poppendick Exhibit No. 7, I quote:—
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, pardon me for interrupting. I have no objections to these two affidavits, but I wish to request the Secretary-General to bring to court tomorrow the original exhibits of Document numbers NO-579, NO-582 and NO-1300.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note the request of the Counsel for the Prosecution.
MR. HARDY: Those are the original exhibits.
THE PRESIDENT: The original exhibits or the original documents?
MR. HARDY: The original documents.
THE PRESIDENT: The original documents to court to morrow morning.
DR. BOEHM: I shall now read Exhibit Poppendick No. 7:
I was an employee at the Schering Works A. G. in Berlin-Charlottenburg since the year 1935 and was at the same time a co-worker of Professor von Kennel who was at that time Senior Physician (Oberarzt) at the Municipal Hospital Schwabing, Munich. Professor von Kennel worked on sulfonamide research, and I worked under him as a chemical co-worker. Medical science owes to him the research of the sulfadiazine group whose most efficacious compound was Globucid which was produced by the Schering Works.
From 1937 until 1943 Professor von Kennel was director of the University Clinic for Skin and Venereal Diseases in Kiel and after that in Leipzig in the same capacity.
He finally directed in Leipzig a chemo-therapeutic department called Research Department V
— (not Roman V but "V") —
which was financially supported by the SS. He worked for economic independence from industry and intended his research institute to be taken over the state. He had the assurance of the SS that he would remain a completely free and independent research worker. He accordingly directed his research department V — for von Kennel — on his own responsibility. In scientific matters even the Reich Physician-SS and Police Dr. Grawitz could give him no orders, nor did he do so.
There is no doubt that the chief of the personal office of the Reich Physician-SS and Police, Helmut Poppendick, was not responsible for the activities of this research department V. I know that Professor von Kennel received animals for experiments, white mice, for his laboratory in Leipzig from Buchenwald, and that there was an exchange of correspondence regarding this.
I remember a talk with Professor von Kennel in the course of which we discussed the hormone research of a Danish SS physician. This doctor who worked on the implantation of hormone crystals never worked with Professor von Kennel or his research department V.
The research department of Professor von Kennel never as far as I know had anything to do with experiments on typhus and incendiary bombs; the sole purpose of this department was research on sulfonamides and during the last few years of the War research on penicillin.
I shall also read Document Exhibit No. 8:
I, Professor Dr. Med. Josef von Kennel, born 9 August 1897 in Munich, residence: Bad Homburg vor der Hoehe, Gymnasiumstrasse 14, have been advised that I will be liable to punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare under oath that my statements are true and were made in order to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal I in the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.
After World War I, I studied medicine. Having finished my specialized studies as a specialist on skin and venereal diseases, I occupied myself already at an early date with chemotherapeutic research. In 1928 I worked with Dr. Feldt of the Schering Works A. G., Berlin, on the gold preparation Solganal-B-oleosum. In 1932 I received for this work my degree of doctor habilitation. The beginning of my research work V (von Kennel) dates back to this time. At that time I renounced all personal financial participation in the large-scale manufacture of the above-named preparation by the firm of Schering, rather I contented myself with a chemist and an assistant for my research work.
My first chemist in my research department V was Dr. Michael, a Jew, who was married to an English woman. In 1933 I helped him to emigrate to England. My next chemical collaborator was Dr. Kimmig. In 1937 I became ordinary professor at the University of Kiel and director of the University dermatology clinic. The invention of the sulfonamide Globucid by Kimmig and me dates back to that time, the production of which by the firm of Schering has only now been authorized again by the English occupation authorities for the Schering firm.
Together with Kimmig and Lemke there appeared the first German work on penicillin in the Clinical Weekly (Klinische Wochenschrift) (1942/1943). With the support of the firm of Schering, the research department V's personnel had meanwhile increased greatly. I had my own research account V for the authorized research expenditures.
In 1943 I was summoned by letter to report to the medical office of the Waffen-SS. I was asked there to place myself at the disposal of the Waffen-SS as consultant specialist for venereal diseases with chemotherapy. After some objections on my part, I finally agreed after I had been expressly assured of my absolute civilian independence. For my work I was promised financial support especially in the form of chemicals.
On 1 April 1943 I received a summons to the University of Leipzig and could move my Kiel research department there. By financial and material support from the Waffen-SS we were able to keep the clinic, which was heavily damaged by bombs, in a workable condition. In 1943 I received the honorary rank of Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] in the Waffen-SS in common with the other consultant physicians of other troop units. Before this I had no connection with any organization of the NSDAP, apart from my membership from 1933 on (without office).
An excerpt from the book 'The SS State' (Der SS-Staat) by Eugen Kogon, as well as his testimony before Military Tribunal I regarding the experimental station in Leipzig, has been submitted to me, and from my own knowledge I can state the following thereto:
In Leipzig there was no experimental station Roman 'V'. There was only a research department V (Vonkennel), which had gone with me from Munich via Kiel to Leipzig and which was financially supported by the firm of Schering in respect of my inventions.
Only in 1943 did this research department receive certain financial and material assistance from the Waffen SS as well. This research department was exclusively under my orders. It was a purely civilian university institution. Not one single worker was a member of the SS. In fact, I employed a Catholic priest as my private secretary whom the Gestapo intended to send to Buchenwald, and an unlicensed half-Jewish woman doctor was my private assistant.
The research department V (Vonkennel) was exclusively concerned with chemotherapeutic problems (sulfonamides, penicillin, lice powder, etc.). All the works of this research department were published in official medical weeklies under the heading 'By the Working Community of the Leipzig, or Kiel, Dermatology Clinic, director: Professor Vonkennel'.
This department never had anything to do with the hormone experiments of Dr. Vaernet, with typhus, or with experiments concerning burns. I personally only once heard of Dr. Vaernet, that he was in Berlin seeking the cooperation of the pharmaceutical industry. The experiments mentioned in the book of Dr. Kogon are entirely unknown to me.
Viewed from a medical expert's point of view, the implantation of synthetic hormones in the form of crystals or tablets into the abdominal cover represents an internationally recognized method which has already proved effective.
Dr. Grawitz, the Reich Physician SS and Police, visited my clinic only once, after the heavy air raid in December 1944. I received from him no directives whatsoever in scientific respects or in regard to working methods.
Mr. Poppendick had nothing whatever to do with my research department, nor did he ever try to interfere in themes or methods.
The assertion made in Dr. Kogon's book that Poppendick was authorized to sign for the experimental department is entirely unfounded.
That is the end of my quotation. The affidavit is signed and certified, and therefore correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has received from Captain Charles J. Roska, Medical Corps, a written statement that the defendant Oberheuser should be excused from attendance at this afternoon's session. This has been accomplished and the certificate will be filed for the record.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)