1947-04-09, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)

Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 April 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Beals presiding.

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.

Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.

There will be order in the court room.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the court.

THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser, absent due to illness.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal having received a certificate from the prison doctor to the effect that Defendant Oberheuser is unable to appear in court today, she will be excused from attendance for this day, it appearing that her interests will not be jeopardized by her absence.

The Secretary-General will file the certificate from the prison physician.

Counsel may proceed.

HELMUT POPPENDICK — Resumed

DR. BOEHM (Counsel for the Defendant Poppendick): Mr. President, I should like to continue in my interrogation of the witness Poppendick.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q: Regarding the incendiary bomb experiments on 5 January 1944, in Ding's diary, No 265, Prosecution Exhibit 12, page 48 in the English Document Book entry according to which the minutes of these experiment were sent to the Reichsarzt [Reich Physician]-SS to be forwarded to the Madaus Works. The witness Kogon believed that he read that these reports went to you.

Did you ever see such a report?

A: No, at least I cannot recall ever having seen such a report with pictures. I certainly should have noticed the pictures.

Q: Was it customary for experimental reports to be sent to you?

A: No, such reports were sent direct to the Reichs physician. Correspondence with staff members in such matters was principally forbidden. If despite that such a case did arise, namely, if someone because he didn't know any better sent such a report to someone who shouldn't receive it, then the report would nevertheless still have gone to the Reichs physician.

Q: Did you know the Madaus Works?

A: As I have already said, I knew the name only from medical periodicals.

Q: Do you know Dr. Koch?

A: No.

DR. BOEHM: In connection with this question, I shall subsequently submit Dr. Koch's affidavit which arrived within the past days as evidence for Dr. Mrugowsky, in which Dr. Koch says that he did not know Poppendick that no correspondence was sent through Poppendick to him, or to the Madaus Works.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q: Did you know the Higher SS and Police Leader Woyrsch who was stationed in Dresden?

A: I only knew his name.

Q: Did you attend any conferences at which there was discussion of experiments with the drug R 17?

A: No.

Q: Do you know the drug R 17 at all?

A: No, I did not know about it until this trial.

Q: Did you have anything to do with the taking of the contents of the incendiary bombs Buchenwald or did you know of this?

A: No, not that either.

Q: In other words, you had no connection with the planning or direction of incendiary experiments described by the prosecution nor were you the competent expert whose job it was to concern himself with this whole question?

A: No.

DR. BOEHM: I submit now HPO 7, an affidavit of Dr. Dirchert, in this connection, which is on page 18 of the document Poppendick book. I submit it as Poppendick Exhibit No. 9. At the moment I shall road point 2 of this affidavit. I quote:

2. Treatment of phosphorus burns with "R 17".:

The dropping of phosphorus incendiary bombs made it necessary to find the appropriate means for its treatment. Since the usual copper sulfate solution did not show satisfactory results, the firm of Dr. Madaus of Dresden sought another medium to dissolve phosphorus. They found this in a liquid which they manufactured and called "R 17" (carbon tetrachloride). The effectiveness of R 17 was proved by the firm of Dr. Madaus through the experiments on rabbits.

After those rabbit experiments were concluded Dr. Madaus asked the Higher SS and Police Leader v. Woyrsch of Dresden to watch these experiments. Since my emergency office was at the premises of Gruppenfuehrer [Lieutenant General] v. Woyrsch, he asked me to come along to the firm of Madaus in my capacity as a physician and to observe these experiments. That was in the fall of 1943. In accordance with the request of Gruppenfuehrer v. Woyrsch and the firm of Madaus, I reported to the Reich Physician SS and Police on the results in the treatment of phosphorus burns found by the firm of Madaus; I suggested to him to include the product R 17 in the first-aid kits for air-raid precautions. Grawitz promised an investigation. For this purpose, some time later, he sent Dr. Ding, in his capacity as hygienist, to Dresden and ordered me to arrange for Ding to go to the Madaus firm and see the results with the drug R 17 obtained by that firm. I did so. Ding came to Dresden and in my presence watched the experiments mentioned.

He declared later that he would investigate the efficacy of that preparation, also on rabbits, in Buchenwald, upon orders of the Reich Physician SS. He asked that the firm Madaus should place the preparation R 17 at his disposal. Immediately after the inspection of the firm of Madaus he left Dresden again.

It is also know to me that Dr. Ding had requested the office of the Higher SS and Police Leader to supply him with the contents of an English incendiary bomb; this request was, as far as I know, filled by the Police President of Leipzig. Dr. Ding sent for the drug and the incendiary bomb.

It is also known to me that Ding made a report about his experiments; I know this, because Ding inquired several times at my office in Dresden, both in writing and by telephone, whether the report was there, since he could not find it. It was supposed to be a report with illustrations. Whether the report went through my office, I do not know, as I used to be in Dresden only one day each week. At the time when Ding was looking for the report, it was not in my office. I presume therefore that he sent it directly to the firm of Madaus, since they were interested in his investigations.

As I had heard nothing for some time from the Reich Physician, as to whether R 17 was to be included in first-aid kits for air raid precautions, I asked the Reich Physician about it. He explained to me that the preparation would not be introduced, since it merely dissolved the phosphorus but did not directly help in the healing of the burns. Another source, however, was producing a preparation which combined both these qualities, and this one was to be introduced.

Q: The prosecution in the course of its case mentioned the method of treatment of the Danish physician Dr. Vaernet, who carried out transplantations on homosexuals and people who were prematurely old; what do you know about this?

A: I heard once that Dr. Vaernet was working in Prague in a pharmaceutical factory on the technical development of a hormone pill. This tablet had a certain shape and he called it artificial gland.

Q: In this connection I submit the Baier Affidavit, Document HPO 12, page 33 of the Document Book Poppendick, it will be Poppendick Exhibit 10. I quote from the third paragraph:

At Himmler's order Dr. Vaernet was given a suitable laboratory in the Heilmittel-G.m.b.H. in Prague, which was subordinate to the WVHA. Dr. Vaernet worked there in Prague in the year 1944.

Equipment and personnel were placed at his disposal. As we know, Dr. Vaernet is said to have worked as an independent scientist on the development of the artificial gland, which had been patented. He was convinced that his scientific method would be successful and worked continuously on it.

As far as I remember, Dr. Vaernet was said to have had successful results on his Danish private patients in his treatment with the artificial gland, which was perhaps not technically perfected.

I, myself, saw the so-called artificial gland during a visit in Prague. It was a small tablet, in the shape of a cylinder, only a few millimeters thick, its diameter I estimate, was no more than 1 cm. The outer edge was surrounded by a silvery layer.

Vaernet told us that these tablets were to take the place of numerous hormone injections, because after implantation in the body they were assimilated slowly and evenly.

We were convinced of the harmlessness of this tablet, particularly since we knew that such implantations of hormone crystals were customary in medical science.

Did you speak with Dr. Vaernet?

A: I met Dr. Vaernet once in Grawitz' ante-room while he was waiting there, he introduced himself to me and we spoke together. I remember that we spoke about his method, and he said that he had already employed this method in Denmark on a number of private patients with very good success. If I recall correctly, Dr. Vaernet wanted to have a pure hormone substance for his technical work, which was difficult at that time to obtain.

Q: The prosecution has put in Document 1300, Exhibit 289, which you signed and which concerns Dr. Vaernet's activities; this letter asks Dr. Ding to place laboratory facilities at Vaernet's disposal if it should become necessary; how does it happen that you signed this letter?

A: This, as I remember, is a case similar to the one of which I spoke yesterday; namely where Grawitz dictated the letter and told the secretary he did not want to wait to sign it or I should do so. I read the letter here, and this is not my style of letter-writing. In connection with such an experiment as Vaernet was carrying on, I would not have used the words "humane experiments". I would use the word "implantation" and the vocabulary in the letter is not mine in general. In addition I was not familiar with the connections mentioned in it.

Q: This letter was addressed to Ding although his name was Schuler?

A: I assume that the secretary asked what the heading was to be and since I did not know that Ding was already named Schuler I said Ding.

Q: How does it happen that the letter is addressed to the Concentration Camp Buchenwald and not to the Typhus and Virus Research Institute at Buchenwald, which would have been more correct?

A: I did not know anything more precisely about Ding's address at Buchenwald; I did not know the name of the Institute at Buchenwald and consequently I just had it addressed to the Concentration Camp at Buchenwald, and I knew that it would arrive.

Q: Do you know whether Ding had a further correspondence with the Reichs Physician in this matter, which you found out about?

A: I cannot recall ever having seen such a letter, but I think it is quite possible that Ding answered this letter and stated that Vaernet could make use of the laboratory facilities at Buchenwald.

Q: Kogon testified that Ding wrote a letter to you, in which he did not report in detail about experimental results, he did give you general information about the activities of Vaernet; did you receive such a letter?

A: As I remember neither from Vaernet, nor from any one else, nor from Grawitz, did I see such a matter.

Q: Kogon said that Vaernet used his method on at least fifteen persons, he said further that Vaernet's treatment was the partial cause for two deaths; did you know anything about that?

A: No, I do not know of fifteen persons nor do I know how many people he had applied his method to; and this harmless method could certainly not have led to fatalities, I consider that out of the question.

Q: In the letter to Ding there is mention of Vaernet wanting to carry out preliminary examinations on persons for which he used Ding's laboratory; the prosecution speaks of preliminary operations without ever having any proof of that; what did you imagine was meant by preliminary examinations?

A: I certainly did not imagine that these were any sort of surgical operations; in such a harmless operation as this any surgical work would have been altogether unnecessary.

I can only imagine that these were blood or urine analyses to test the hormone contents, or a similar analysis to that which are frequently carried out in clinics or laboratories. Moreover Dr. Horn recently testified here that castrated persons were also available here and that these, according to the law, were criminals who had been castrated for immoral offenses legally.

Q: In this letter that you signed, there was mention that further details about Vaernet's work had been sent to the camp physician, did you see this documentation?

A: What this documentation was I do not know, but I did see a collection by Vaernet, a collection of literature, and of the solubility of the tablets with mathematical calculations.

DR. BOEHM: Dr. Kirchert's affidavit, which has already been submitted, which is HPO 7; Poppendick Exhibit No. 9; reports on this matter of Vaernet's documentation and it is my intention now to read this Document regarding Vaernet's method:

1) Re. Dr. Vaernet's method of treatment:

Grawitz and Kaltenbrunner had talked about the possibilities of applying the Vaernet hormone preparation and submitted suggestions thereon to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. One of these suggestions was to sell that preparation abroad on the black market and thus to obtain foreign currency. It was also proposed to promise these preparations to foreign agents as a reward for useful information. So far as I know, these suggestions were rejected by Himmler.

After that had happened Grawitz gave me the Vaernet file for orientation so that I would be informed in case Kaltenbrunner should raise any queries.

I was at the time in charge of the medical care of the members of the Reich Security Main Office.

From studying the file, I gathered the following, as far as I still remember:

Dr. Vaernet, a Danish physician, had used a hormone gland preparation, produced by him, with a large number of his Danish private patients. Quite a number of cases were described in the file, which showed the excellent result of this preparation. It was intended for: impotence, geriatric diseases, and finally homosexuality. The gland itself was planted beneath the abdominal skin, a completely harmless operation, and was supposed to be effective for about one year. After a period of one year, a new gland would have to be implanted.

Grawitz told me when he gave me the file that Dr. Vaernet was going to place his process at the disposal of German medical authorities. Nothing is known to me personally about an application of this treatment in Germany.

In the file were also mathematical calculations about the size and the type of cover of the gland in connection with the period of its absorption in the human body.

After I had read the file I made a note to that effect returned the file to Grawitz. A discussion with Kaltenbrunner did not materialize.

Q: What is your attitude towards these so-called experiments of Vaernet, were these experiments or simply methods of treatment?

A: They weren't experiments. In contradistinction the German "Versuch" is a much broader term than the German word "experiment." The word "Versuch" is used not only in the sense here as the prosecution uses it as the experiments, but it is used daily in every hospital and every clinic. When any method of treatment in the Charitee doesn't lead to success then Dr. His said, now we will try an experiment with such and such a method." In other words, the word "Versuch" does not have the same connotation as the word "Experiment" used literally. And of course in this connection professor Rostock, as an expert, testified about the crystal implantation, and recently Dr. Horn made statements on this subject, who was an eye witness of this treatment, and both said it was a question of an internationally known method of treatment that was altogether harmless.

DR. BOEHM: In connection with the implantation of synthetic glands I submit HPO 10 and 11, both excerpts from scientific publications. These are only two of the many publications in this filed, and which describe implantation as one of the methods of hormone therapy. I submit an excerpt from Clinical Endocrinology, as Poppendick Exhibit, No. 11, to be found on page 27. I should like to read a part of this excerpt:

Excerpt from A Jores "Clinical Endocrinology" (Klinische Endocrinologie). A manual for physicians and students by Arthur Jores, Dr. med. habil., Hamburg, Berlin, Published by Julius Springer, 1939, page 300:

Therapy with sex hormones.

a. Physiological preface.

Some years ago, by the clarification of the chemical constitution of the sex hormones, the way was opened for their synthetic production, it did not take long until synthesis was achieved, thus opening a large and new filed for therapy.

There can be no doubt that by means of chemically pure sex hormones it is possible to compensate fully for the functions of the gonads both in the castrated animal and in the human castrate

— I Omitted reading 12 lines, and take up in the middle of the thirds paragraph at "The Implantation of Crystals."

The implantation of Crystals, first introduced by Parkes and Deanesly and later repeated by Schoeller and others, proved that the better effect of esters is due to the above mentioned factors. Crystal implantation shows a clear superiority of the pure substance compared with the esters. In the experiments made by Schoeller and Gehrke, the implantation of 1 mg testosterone had a 14 higher effect than the same dose given by injection. The effect of crystal implantation also lasts much longer; the maximum effect is reached later; —

Now, page 304:

Therapy with male sexual hormones.

Treatment by means of the preparation concerned has, besides the effect on the sexual sphere, a number of other effects.

First there is a general stimulation, particularly in the case of aging persons.

I begin now, with the last paragraph of this document:

On cases of eunuchoidism and weakness of potency, not of a purely physical nature, the necessary dose is generally smaller. In such cases, Venzmer for instance recommends 5-50 mg of testosterone propionate per dose and a total of about 10 injections. The improvement in general conditions, physical elasticity, and the feeling of physical fitness are particularly noticeable. Eroticism (Eretisierung) does not occur. These observations indicate therapeutic use of male sex hormones particularly in cases of senile complaints and premature impotence. Here, also, the results reported are very good.

Document HOP 11 is an excerpt form the "Schweizerische medizinische Wochenschrift", an article by Dr. Mueller. This is on page 29, and I put it in as Poppendick Exhibit No. 12 Here also I should like to read a few excerpts. I quote:

Excerpts from "Swiss Medical Weekly" (Schweizerische medizinische Wochenschrift) No. 25, 24 June 1944). —

THE PRESIDENT: Do you find it necessary to read any portion of this exhibit into the record? Is it not enough to refer to it as an exhibit?

DR. BOEHM: Perhaps I don't have to read it, but I should like to read one paragraph of about eight lines, This is on page 3, page 675, at page 31 of the Document Book.

Page 675:

Hormones bodies under high pressure (e.g. hydraulic) but solid single crystals in particular, will naturally offer longer resistance to the process of solution than loosely pressed substances. With regard to its effect, the implantation of hormones is similar to the principle which could best be called 'Glandular prothesis'. As with the intact organ whose natural function is to be replaced (e.g. the replacement of the ovary by implantation of estradiol in the case of castration), the crystal, in an infinitesimal division, in a continuous flow of small, so-to-speak physiological doses of hormones, has the same effect. Only thus can it be explained that with 'glandular' prothesis' excellent therapeutic results can be obtained.

The originals of these exhibits, can, if you wish, be seen.

Q: In the course of its case the Prosecution, aside from the experiments mentioned in the indictment, mentioned also blood coagulating experiments; you were not called particularly responsible for this, but I should nevertheless like to ask you, did you know about the coagulating experiments carried on in Dachau?

A: No, I knew nothing of these polygal experiments.

Q: Did you know the word "polygal" at all?

A: The word I have heard somewhere or another.

Q: Did you know that polygal was produced in the Ahnenerbe [Ancestral Heritage]?

A: That might have been mentioned once also, but I don't know any details.

Q: If you heard that experiments were being undertaken with drug what would you have supposed that meant, that is to say you have though they were in any way clinical experiments?

A: It never would have occurred to me to think of something that was not permissible for the testing of coagulants, as surgical rooms in a hospital provide that adequate material.

Q: Document 614 was put in by the prosecution as Exhibit 245, English Document Book, 11, page 25, where there is mention of an article by Rascher on the use of Polygal 10 in the Munich Medical Weekly Rascher was accused of not having submitted this work to the Reich Physician for approval; did you see this manuscript?

A: The manuscript or work by Rascher I never saw. If I had I should have remember it.

Q: Furthermore, the Prosecution put in a report on the biochemical treatment of sepsis in which it is said that sepsis was induced artificially in a number of persons. This is Document NO-409, Prosecution Exhibit 249, English Document Book 11, page 57. Do you know this report that is here in question?

A: No.

Q: In Grawitz's papers there was a paper on artificial infection. This is Prosecution Exhibit 251 in Document Book 11, page 62, NO-984. Did you know about this case history?

A: No, I did not.

Q: And there is Document 114, Exhibit 324, page 13 of the English Document Book referring to biological warfare. This is a letter from Grawitz to Himmler and there is also mention of a memorandum in this letter. Did you know of this letter or of this memorandum, or did you have any knowledge of this question at all?

A: No, I didn't know the letter, and I didn't know anything about the whole question.

Q: Further you are accused under Point 4 of being a member of the SS. As a member of the SS did you take part in any excesses such as the prosecution of the Jews in '33 or '38?

A: I never took part in any such excesses as a member of the SS.

Q: In the course of the case the Prosecution mentioned many experiments that were either directly or indirectly associated with Grawitz. In view of your high rank would you not have known of these experiments?

A: I had my rank as chief physician of the R. & S. Main Office, and my rank was proportionate to my position. You can draw no deductions from my rank with regard to my activities in Grawitz's office nor regarding knowledge of what happened in Grawitz's sphere. The doctors of the Rasse und Siedlungs [Race and Settlement] Main Office were transferred to the Reich Physician, not so that they could work under the Reich Physician, but they were to continue to be active in the Rasse und Siedlung Office.

Q: In other words, you were not Grawitz's staff chief nor a person who knew all about Grawitz's work nor were you his personal advisor?

A: No, I was neither staff chief nor the collaborator who knew exactly what was going on. The chief of staff is a man who stands intermediary between the chief and the other offices who represents the chief, and so far as consultation or advice is concerned, I must say that Grawitz himself was a professor of internal medicine and had no need of advice, and, moreover, this was not consonant with his nature to let subordinates advise him.

Q: Did your activity in the Rasse und Siedlungs Main Office have any relation to the criminal activities of the SS?

A: The activities of the Main Race and Settlement Office concerned only investigating the hereditary health and fitness of members of the SS themselves. There were no connections with people who were not SS members. In other words, it was a purely internal SS matter.

Q: Did the Main Race and Settlement Office, in your opinion, have anything to do with criminal activities? Were any measures of extermination planned there or carried out?

A: I did not know anything whatsoever about such things. The Main Race and Settlement Office was founded in 1932 on Darre's initiative, and its aim was to move or to persuade the population in the big cities to move to the country. This was to be done through the Settlement Office so far as the SS was concerned, and, moreover, SS members and their wives were to be submitted to a certain racial selection. That was to be the activity of the Race Office. In the course of years the so called "Sippen-Amt" [Genealogy Office] developed. This was for all practical purposes the marriage office of the SS, and it developed to be the largest office in the whole organization.

The activities of the Settlement Office and the Race Office remained very slight. To be sure, the Settlement Office did set up a few SS settlements, but this was limited to a few undertakings, I assume because financial matters played a role. Later the Settlement Office, and particularly in the War, concerned itself only with the development of farmers' implements and farmers' settlement. I believe it consisted only of six or eight persons, and the Race Office simply concerned itself with the training of persons who were to test the racial qualifications of members of the SS when they came up for testing. I know of no other activities of the Race and Settlement Office.

DR. BOEHM: I should like to conclude my interrogation of the witness with this and should now like to submit a few documents.

THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions to be propounded to this witness by any other Defense Counsel?

DR. FLEMMING: Flemming for Mrugowsky.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: Witness, what do you know about the relations between Grawitz and Mrugowsky?

A: I know only that it was a perfectly factual and sober relationship. Any closer personal relations are not known to me in the slightest.

Q: In your direct examination you said that you had seen Dr. Ding three or four times at Grawitz's office. Do you consider it possible that he was more frequently there without your having seen him?

A: That is quite possible because I was not always present at the office. 5609

Q: Do you know anything about the fact that Mrugowsky concerned himself with specific philosophical questions which were combatted and repudiated by the Nazi Party and that he identified himself with these views?

A: You are probably referring to so-called "Holismus." It was known that Mrugowsky had relations with "Holistic" circles. So far as I know, this was a philosophical movement, I believe, which originated in England and which wished to deduce the laws of nature from the direct observation of nature herself, and I believe of "Holismus" it was said by the Nazis that the "Holists" had some relation with the policy Catholicism but I can't say that for sure, and it is true that Mrugowsky was accused of having connections with these "Holistic" people.

Q: From the point of view of the Nazi Party and the SS, being in any way concerned with this philosophical matter was a liability.

A: Yes; I know that the doctrines were combatted, but I don't know by whom.

DR. FLEMMING: Thank you. No further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Any other interrogation of the witness by any Defense Counsel? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Dr. Poppendick, first of all I would like to clarify in my own mind and for the Tribunal just what positions you held. Now in August of 1935 you became a physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office in Berlin.

A: In 1935 the name was not yet "Race and Settlement Office". It was the Amt Fuer Bevoelkerungs-Politik und GesundheitsPflege [Office for Population Policy and Health Care] of the SS which was then transferred about a year later to the Race and Settlement Office.

Q: Now then in 1941 you were appointed chief physician of the Main Race and Settlement Office.

A: "Chief physician" is not the correct word. We use the word "managing physician", because he was not in charge of the whole Main Office but simply could give certain orders in the medical department.

Q: Well, there was not any other medical man higher than you, was there?

A: No, not in the Race and Settlement Office.

Q: Now you held that position in the Race and Settlement Office until when?

A: Autumn of '44, roughly.

Q: Now then, will you explain what your position was in this so called "Sippen-amt"? Was that a department of the Main Race and Settlement Office or just what was the Sippen-amt? As you explained it here?

A: The Sippen-amt was an office in the Race and Settlement Office, one office of many and in this Sippen-amt there was a Main Medical Department in which the doctors were included although this depended differently from time to time.

Q: Now then, in 1943 you were appointed to the staff of Grawitz when the re-organization of the SS Medical Services took place; is that right?

A: No, I didn't hold office the first time in 1943. That was in 1939.

Q: Now, when Grawitz had the re-organization you were appointed Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsarzt SS. That was in September or first of September 1943; is that right?

A: The doctors of the Race Settlement Office, really, I belonged in the summer of 1939 to the Reich Physicians.

Q: Listen to my question; on the first September 1943 you became Chief of the Personal Staff of Grawitz as Reichsarzt SS, did you not?

A: Yesterday I stated I received the title without there ever existing such an office.

Q: Then you had the title "Chief of the Personal Staff of the Office of Reichsarzt SS?"

A: Yes.

Q: Now, prior to 1 September 1943 what was your contact with Grawitz? What position did you hold relative Grawitz, if any?

A: Before 1943 since 1939 I was an ordinary member of Grawitz' staff, not having any special position in the TO as I had been transferred primarily to work in the Race and Settlement Office and I was simply used to do small jobs because I was present at Grawitz' office for hours at a time.

Q: Now, if I understand it correctly then you held that minor position under Grawitz from about 1939 until the end; is that right?

A: Yes, that's true.

Q: And you tell us that position was one in which you handled minor tasks or special assignments; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: More or less a general handy-man when needed?

A: No, that's going too far because I wasn't always there.

Q: Well, now then, the first time you received the title was in the re-organization on 1 September 1943; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Well now, after you received the title as Chief of the Personal Staff did you have any duties?

A: I wasn't Chief of the Personal Staff but Chief of the Personal Office and so titled but as I said yesterday quite explicitly Grawitz stated that he was giving specific responsibilities but in effect everything would remain the way it had been.

Q: Well, then what did you consider yourself under Grawitz? Did you consider yourself a messenger boy or a letter-carrier like Rudolf Brandt or first an advisor or just what did you consider yourself?

A: If you want to call it that, I really was a messenger boy for Grawitz because my rank and all of my activities were carried out in the Race and Settlement Main Office.

Q: Messenger is a pretty high rank when it's an SS Oberfuehrer [Senior Colonel].

A: I have already said that my rank was connected with my activities as a member doctor in the Race and Settlement Office and that you could draw any deductions about my activities elsewhere for example by the Reichs physician.

Q: Well now, did you had any connection whatsoever with Leipzig? Now, you have heard here relating to institutions at Leipzig or some such thing? Now, did you have any connection or contact with an institution in Leipzig?

A: I know only of one, not two institutions in Leipzig. That was the research laboratory of Professor Von Kennel, whom I knew.

Q: Did you have any contact with that experimental laboratory of Prof. Von Kennel?

A: I knew Prof. Von Kennel and I also remember that once I provided him with a secretary, a specific secretary who was elsewhere employed at the time by the Planning office and I went to the office where she was employed and made efforts to get her for Prof. Von Kennel.

Q: Did you have any capacity whatsoever in this Institute at Leipzig?

A: No.

Q: Well now, your contact prior to 1943, that is, 1 September 1943 with the Reichsarzt SS Grawitz wasn't a close contact. Is that the impression you wish to convey?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, how do you account for the fact, doctor, in Document NO-321 which is on page 116 of Prosecution's Document Book — this is a document wherein Rascher and Grawitz were having their discussion concerning freezing and wherein you interrupted or you were quoted here as stating on page 116:

Well, I already had to ask Standartenfuehrer [Colonel] Sievers several times to come to me to receive information. In the long-run all medical matters wind up with us any way.

Now, isn't that conveying the thought you were closely connected with all of the activities of Grawitz' office?

A: This text is Rascher' text. In other words, by no means a document as to what was discussed there and moreover the rest of the letter shows this as a very one-sided coloration; I think a very specific purpose, namely, to achieve certain results with the Reichsfuehrer SS. I say that I did not make that statement in that form but Rascher conducted himself in this experiment most peculiarly and although he belonged to the General SS he disputed the fact that he was subordinate to the Reich Physician.

Therefore, I pointed out our situation in the Sippen-amt, that we too were subordinate to the Reich Physician and as necessary consequences after all medical matters did have to go through certain channels and here as the Staff Physician of the Race Settlement Office I also, outside of Grawitz' Office said something and namely, that Sievers could not ask me to come to him in an official capacity; that I said yesterday, that argument is a distorted representation which is not true at least in this sense nor can I ever remember having discussed anything with Sievers previously.

Q: Now, you were in this gathering as stated further in this document — I reckon that is the meeting with Rascher and Grawitz and yourself — you were present?

A: I was called in later.

Q: When was that meeting?

A: The meeting took place at the beginning of 1943, if I recall correctly.

Q: January 1943?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, you stated on direct examination that you had visited Dachau twice; that is in 1935 and 1941?

A: Yes, that's true.

Q: Who accompanied you on your 1935 visit to Dachau?

A: I cannot say.

Q: Was Grawitz with you?

A: I didn't know Grawitz at that time and had nothing to do with him. That happened when I was connected with the Race Settlement Office, that visit.

Q: Now, was Grawitz with you in the 1941 visit?

A: No, under no circumstances.

Q: Did you say on direct that Grawitz was with you when you visited Dachau in 1941?

A: No, I did not say that.

Q: Then is must by interpretation — your Honor, I will have to check that. Let's go on to the sulfa experiments, doctor. Now, you attended the Medical Conference in Berlin in 1943 when Gebhardt and Fischer reported on the results of the sulfanilamide experiments, did you not?

A: Yes. I heard that report.

Q: Were you able to ascertain from that report that concentration camp inmates were used in these experiments?

A: No, that could not be seen under any circumstance as I remember the things.

Q: Now, didn't Gebhardt tell you that could be seen readily that they experimented on concentration camp inmates or people condemned to death?

A: As far as I remember what Mr. Gebhardt say was that the experimental subjects were persons condemned to death but he didn't say they were concentration camp inmates.

Q: But you in fact knew before this meeting that these experiments were being conducted at the Concentration Camp Ravensbruck, didn't you?

A: No.

Q: Are you sure, doctor?

A: No. I knew nothing about that.

Q: Well, now, to your knowledge, did Grawitz — pardon me, strike that — to your knowledge, did Gebhardt every submit reports to Grawitz concerning his experiments at Ravensbruck?

A: Professor Gebhardt himself said that he sent reports but I wouldn't know that particularly.

Q: You never saw anything in the nature of preliminary reports originating from Professor Gebhardt concerning sulfanilamide experiments at Ravensbruck?

A: I cannot recall having seen anything in this connection.

Q: Well, suppose Gebhardt sent a preliminary report to Grawitz concerning experiments with gas gangrene carried out on inmates of Ravensbruck Concentration Camp, would you have been in a position to see it?

A: No, by no means.

Q: And you never saw such a report?

A: I cannot recall anything of that sort.

Q: Let us establish a time element, doctor. Assume Grawitz received a preliminary report from Gebhardt in June 1942 — would you have seen that report then?

A: No, by no means. There was no reason why I should.

Q: Would you have seen such a report if he had received it in July?

A: The time doesn't make any difference.

Q: Would you have seen such a report in August?

A: I just said that time doesn't make any difference here. As a matter of policy such things wouldn't go to me. Occasionally I saw some details but not in context and I couldn't tell you now.

Q: What was your rank in August 1942?

A: In August 1942 I believe I was Obersturmbannfuehrer [Lieutenant Colonel].

Q: Obersturmbannfuehrer, is that right? Well, I will show you the report, doctor, the preliminary report or such. I want you to identify the original. I just received it from Berlin this morning. I haven't had an opportunity to prepare it. I would like to present this to the witness for identification of his signature. Defense counsel may look at it. I will offer it formally at a later date.

Is that your signature, Dr. Poppendick?

A: Yes.

Q: Turn to the second page of that document — just the second page. What is the subject, just the subject — the heading at the top the subject of the report?

A: (Reading)

Interim Report on the Clinical Experiments at Ravensbruck Concentration Camp by orders of the Reichsfuehrer-SS.

On the 20th of 7 — 42 —

Q: That is enough. Would you kindly give that document to the defense counsel, please?

A: Now, doctor, in your position as Chief, or as what you call Managing Physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office —

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, do you desire this document marked with an identification number, having been introduced?

MR. HARDY: I was going to wait until such a time as defense counsel finished perusing the document, your Honor.

EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Can you tell the Tribunal what the negative racial policy was?

A: The negative racial population policy concerned all extermination measures in contradistinction to the positive racial population to the positive racial population policy which was to be promoted by Dr. Lenz.

Q: Well, now what was this negative racial policy — what was the theory behind it?

A: Lenz, for instance, called sterilization which became law in the Third Reich as negative population policy and he believed that no final conclusive result could be achieved.

Q: In other words, negative racial policy was that policy wherein anyone who did not meet requirements as pure Aryans would be exterminated?

A: These matters were completely outside my sphere. At any rate negative population policy at the high school was not something that had to do with extermination at least not the way we studied it in college. It was a matter that concerned the relation between the identity of the German race and other people. In other words, specific groups or people having off springs or having one child less than another group of persons, then this would decrease the birth rate.

Q: Well, was this negative racial policy and positive racial policy of concern to the Race and Settlement Office? That was one of your problems, was it not?

A: No.

Q: It wasn't?

A: Well, yes, so far as the positive population policy played a role because it was important to the SS members to have more children than other people but actually that didn't work out that way and the SS didn't make any distinction.

Q: Well, if it wasn't of interest to the Main Race and Settlement Office why did you concern yourself with sterilization?

A: Me?

Q: Yes, you.

A: I never knew I concerned myself with that. I did not belong to any hereditary health court and that was the department that was concerned with sterilization.

Q: Assume in 1941 — let's assume this for a moment — that you did concern yourself with sterilization in 1941. Now, would you have concerned yourself with sterilization in your capacity as physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office or in your capacity as the man who took care of special assignments of odd jobs for Dr. Grawitz. Suppose the situation ever arose wherein you would have to concern yourself with sterilization, would it arise out of your job as physician in the Main Race and Settlement Office or as position of subordinate to Grawitz — in which capacity?

A: Questions of this sort might have represented me through —

Q: Now, you testified in direct examination that you only know about legal sterilization, is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, now let's look at Document Book NO VI, document NO 214, Exhibit 68, found on page 51 of the English, your Honor. If defense counsel has the German copy I would appreciate it if he would submit that to the witness for the purpose of this examination. That is NO-214 under Klauberg's Section, Sterilization Section, Document Book VI.

Now, the date of this letter?

A: 20 May 1941.

Q: That's right. Well, now, doctor, it says here:

Reference Report to Reichsfuehrer-SS 27 May 1941.

Do you know anything about that report that was made to Reichsfuehrer-SS 27 May 1941?

A: I know that female sterilization was to be treated according to this Klauberg method and I also know the name but I do not know this letter. I know nothing of the report to the Reichsfuehrer. If I know anything it is only concerned with the treatment of female sterilization.

Q: Well, now did you concern yourself with the treatment of female sterilization at this time here 1941, in May, June, or July?

A: Me? No. I was interested in this as a doctor in the Sippen-amt.

Q: Then you wouldn't have any knowledge that they were preparing to perform treatments, upon women, to perform experiments on women in connection with Klauberg's method?

A: I knew nothing about sterilization.

Q: Nothing about it doctor? Let's see if we can refresh your memory a little. It might be a good time to break, your Honor. We can introduce this document after the recess.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.