1947-06-09, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal, There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained if the defendants are all present in the court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court. Defendant Beiglboeck, the witness, is reminded that he is still under oath.
Counsel may proceed.
THE MARSHAL: Your Honor, defendant Hoven is absent this morning having been excused by the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the absence of defendant Hoven from the courtroom having been excused by the Tribunal in order that he may consult with his counsel.
Counsel may proceed.
WILHELM BEIGIBOECK — Resumed
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. STEINBAUER (Attorney for defendant, Professor Dr. Beiglboeck):
Q: Witness, yesterday we stopped with the description of the rooms where the experiments were carried out and now I am asking you where was the court yard about which witness Vichweg was talking.
A: The court yard about which the witness Vichweg was speaking was immediately connected with the barrack in which there was the experimental room. I have made a sketch from which the situation can be seen and this sketch is in my document book No. 2, document No. 31.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, in that connection I submit document No. 31 from document book No. 1, an affidavit of Walter Massion of 24 March 1947. Attached to this affidavit which I shall not read now is an original sketch. I have photostatic copies made of this and a translation. Therefore, I cannot submit it to you now. Excuse me, I shall give the Exhibit number 12 to this document and this sketch. The experimental room is included.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Counsel, the Tribunal has the English translation. It has the document both in German and in English.
DR. STEINBAUER: I had the sketch made here. You have it, too, Mr. Hardy, don't you? This sketch is added to the Massion affidavit in its original form. I had photostats made of it in addition. I had a translation made for the Judges which I could submit to you only at this moment.
THE PRESIDENT: We have the document, both in German and in English now?
DR. STEINBAUER: The original of the sketch is included in the document of the Massion affidavit in the back, toward the back, the last page. The original is included in the Massion affidavit. Photostats and English translations were made so that the expressions will be understood.
Mr. Secretary General, would you please be so kind as to hand the original to the Judges?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I understood you to say the original translation had not been prepared but we have it.
DR. STEINBAUER: No, it is included here. It is attached.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, I must have misunderstood you. The document appears to be complete.
MR. HARDY: May I inquire, your Honor, whether or not the affidavit purports to contain a certificate therein certifying that the chart is a true representation of the conditions existing in Dachau?
DR. STEINBAUER: The signature — Dr. Servatius submitted the original to the witness in Cologne. Dr. Massion certified that it was correct in the presence of Dr. Servatius. This is apparent in the affidavit. On the original you see the signature of Walter Massion.
THE PRESIDENT: I find no certification by Dr. Servatius.
MR. HARDY: Only on the affidavit, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the affidavit refer to the chart? I haven't had time to read it yet.
MR. HARDY: It obviously does not, Your Honor, inasmuch as the chart is dated 24 April and the affidavit is dated 24 March. I will not object to its submission in evidence but I want him to clarify this certification, and, if possible, have it certified before the close of the case.
DR. STEINBAUER: We shall ask Dr. Servatius. I did not speak to the witness myself because the trip was too inconvenient but Dr. Servatius spoke to Massion and submitted it to him. I shall ask Dr. Servatius for a certification and shall hand it in afterward, also a certification of the sketch.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Would you please continue now, witness?
A: In this sketch the room in which my experimental persons were lodged is marked by a broken line. Next to this room is a smaller room in which the medical students were living. These were the French medical students whom I had taken out of their working companies and put into the hospital where they had better living conditions and could get bettor food. Through this room where the medical students were living one could go into the court yard about which the witness Viehweg testified. The door is marked by an arrow. A second way to get into the court yard was through another door of the experimental room via the main corridor of the hospital. Since not all of the experimental subjects were included in the experiment at one given time but in two divisions which alternated, they could always take walks in the court yard if they happened to be off and when the weather was good they also ate in the court yard. Thus the witness Viehweg had ample opportunity during the entire length of the experiments to talk to the experimental subjects. I never prevented him from carrying on such a conversation. His statements that only during the first days of the experiments he could talk to them is not correct.
Q: How was the execution of the experiments themselves?
A: As it had been laid down in the program of the experiment which was given to me, all of the experimental persons were first given the food that the aviators received, that is, about 3,500 calories per day, and in addition the so-called heavy labor food, so that they received about 4,000 calories per day.
Q: Were there additions to these calories?
A: The additions were the food for heavy labor. That was, as far as I remember, eggs, butter, grade A milk, etc.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, in that connection I want to submit two documents, first document No. 26, in my document book No. 2, on page 103. I would like to give it Exhibit No. 13. This is an original document of the military district medical supply depot No. 17, about the food that was given to the experimental subjects.
On page 103, document book 2, this next document I would like to submit
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, counsel.
MR. HARDY: May I inquire again if this document — does this purport to be a list of the food permitted to Beiglboeck for use at Dachau?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, this document has to be regarded in connection with the next one which I want to submit, from which it can be seen quite exactly what quantities were given to the experimental subjects for the so-called staff feeding. The first document is a result of the experimental station regarding the food Beiglboeck is to have for the carrying out of the experiments in a very scientific and exact manner, and with everything I have now I can oven submit the weather chart for every single day but that is of no great interest to us. This is only so that I can meet the objection that the people did not get anything to eat. They got excellent food. If you will look at the list — 2090 canned meat — and that is how it goes on, white bread, butter, cheese, jam, Roesta biscuits, chicken eggs, sugar, semolina, raw potatoes, and in the second document which I now want to submit as Exhibit No. 14, it is the following document on page 103, it says at the top, if you will look at that document:
Re: Experiments to render sea water potable. Delivery of food supplies for experiments.
It is addressed to Oberarzt [Senior Physician] Prof. Beiglboeck, SS Entomological Institute at Dachau. It reads:
Please receive herewith from this station food for the experiments in the following quantities: We should be obliged for a receipt as deduction voucher for the kitchen housekeeping book. For 32 men for 7 days (experimental group I)
Beef in tins 9,350 kg — 11 tins each containing 850 grs.
Fat (margarine) 3,200 Kg.
Jam 9,600 Kg.
Potatoes 27,000 Kg.
Army bread 112,000 Kg.
White bread 44,800 Kg.
Gravy Powder 11,200 Kg.
Cooking Fat (Marg.) 480 Kg.
Sugar 8,960 Kg. Coffee Substitutes 2,016 Kg.
Cottage cheese 8,000 Kg.
Then the so-called starting rations:
Full cream milk 112 ltr.
Eggs 224
Butter 5,600 Kg.
Semolina 5,600 Kg.
15) Roesta biscuits 24 packets
16) Cigarettes — 6 for each person per day
That is all together 1344 cigarettes, and then the signature of the Stabszahlmeister [Paymaster].
MR. HARDY: I must inquire your Honor what is the purpose of introducing document No. 26, which is Exhibit No. 13. From what I see the food is the same as that Professor Beiglboeck in Exhibit No. 14, dated the 11th August 1944, Exhibit No. 13, which is dated 19 August 1944, and obviously pertains to the same subject, one is the Examination of the food at the Vienna Branch of the Technical College Biochemistry Institute of the Technical Department. I don't see the connection between the two documents.
DR. STEINBAUER: It is very easy to clarify this. The second document only pertains to the delivery and it is dated the 11th of August, and in order now to get a scientific basis for his experiments Professor Beiglboeck in regard to these foods sent samples to Vienna in order to determine the amount of salt and the amount of water contained in it, and the food office made records of this in order to find out what the basic values were. For example, canned meat, sodium chloride, 1.5, per-cent 73, that is 73 per-cent water, is that right?
A: The reason why I still have this receipt is because I had to have the analysis. I had to know how much salt they received in the food.
Q: I am now asking you did the gypsies — did this food agree with the gypsies?
A: One can certainly say so, and they ate it with a great deal of appetite. They enjoyed it.
Q: Witness, in Exhibit 139, the witness, however, says that the experimental subjects, the food did not agree with the experimental subject.
A: Tschofenig was working in the x-ray station. He was the Kapo there, Tschofenig never entered my experimental room at all. He once or twice saw my experimental subjects for a short period of time. Usually I was present myself during the x-ray examination for the reason he reports just what he heard and not what he knows from his own observation. The statements in Exhibit 139 begins with a description of the experiments carried on by Dr. Rascher and the statement ends with a description of the experiments carried on by Dr. Rascher and in the middle I am so that something that is said about Rascher's experiments also applies to me. Of course, I want to raise some doubts as to whether Tschofenig when he would have been asked about Rascher's experiments would have also talked about the sea water experiments. Herr Tschofenig only reports rumors.
Q: In that connection I want to refer to the testimony of the statement of the witness Dr. Horn, German transcript page 5395. He describes how these rumors arise. As defense counsel I also wanted to find out something about the personality of the witness Tschofenig. I applied to the government of the province of Carinthia, since Tschofenig is living in Klagenfurth, and I received a letter from them which says:
Tschofenig is not Slovene representative but he is of Carinthia. According to reliable testimony he has several previous convictions but I do not know any details about this so far. It is correct; that he was in Dachau as Kapo. He became very disliked by a number of political prisoners.
I also wrote to the government of the province of Carinthia about details and I received the answer:
I could not find out any more details about Tschofenig. It is, however, felt that he was Kapo. A great deal is being said here but nobody is ready to make a definite statement.
I read this not in order to submit it in evidence.
MR. HARDY: I object to these remarks of the defense counsel pertaining to the character of one witness Tschofenig, If the defendant has something to say about Tschofenig's character, defense counsel may well put questions to the defendant, but if defense counsel wishes he can take the stand and testify himself.
THE PRESIDENT: Prosecution's objection is sustained. The reading of the letter by counsel which he has received is entirely irrelevant and will not be received as part of the testimony in the case. Of course, counsel may prepare an affidavit, if he can do so, which will be in proper form to receive, but merely reading the letter is not a provocative matter at aid and cannot be considered.
DR. STEINBAUER: This is an official document by the governor of the province. However, I shall try to get an affidavit to this effect. I only wanted to demonstrate here how difficult under certain governments it is to obtain evidence material.
THE PRESIDENT: If counsel is of the opinion that he has a document which because of its official nature constitutes a proper exhibit in evidence, counsel might offer the document in evidence subject to objection and argument but certainly just reading the document is not evidence and cannot become part of the official record.
DR. STEINBAUER: I shall try to obtain an affidavit when I go to Vienna.
Q: Witness, at this stage did you already carry on examinations of experimental subjects?
A: Yes, of course, we were after all concerned in this preliminary period to obtain the preliminary estimate in order to make a preliminary determination in order to be able to prepare the matter later on. Thus urinalyses were undertaken regularly; from time to time the blood was analyzed; electrocardiographs were taken, the function of the kidneys was observed. This was especially important because the kidneys had to accomplish a great deal and in order to exclude damage to the kidneys the background of the eyes was also examined by a specialist.
Q: Was this specialist an SS physician?
A: During my entire sojourn I saw SS physicians only very seldom in the camp. As far as I know, the only physician who was working there was the chief physician of the hospital who, however, I believe concerned himself mainly with the administration. The care of the prisoners was exclusively in the hands of the prison doctors. Some of them whom I met had an excellent medical education.
Q: After the conclusion of these preliminary examinations the experiments began. Can you describe briefly what was then at stake in these experiments?
A: The experimental subjects were divided into three groups which differed in principle. The first group received the Schaefer water. There were altogether five experimental subjects. During the first four days they received food that people at sea distress were supposed to get. During the following days they did not receive any food. Thus, this was something like a fast. Such a fast is used quite frequently now in modern medicine. There is also an American physician in particular by the name of Tanner who at the end of the 19th century introduced this method again in medical therapy.
I had quite a great deal of experience regarding this treatment by fasting. Therefore I could diagnose the symptoms that occurred during that very well. This group that received the Schaefer water was included in the experiment for 11 or 12 days. All of the other groups were experimented on for a shorter time.
Q: Were there any incidents that occurred?
A: This group of course went through the experiments without any complaints and without any incidents.
Q: Well, in the other groups what were you concerned with there?
A: One of these two groups was the hunger and thirst group, the other the group with sea water. Both of these groups had the following in common: The water balance in the body is effected. They have the so-called anhydremie or dehydration. Such an attack on the water balance in the body of course is much more important than the hunger and it is well known that there are people who will hunger by profession and they fast for long time for political and religious reasons, for instance, Ghandi. Cases have occurred and have been certified of people who live for 40-50 days without taking in any food. That is possible only if they receive sufficient liquid. That is about one quart per day. If at the same time they, however, have to thirst, the body sustains it for a much shorter period. One assumes in general that the tolerance of thirst is about 14 days. Only a short time ago I read in Stars and Stripes that in America a Miss Wolfe in New Haven started a hunger and thirst strike and for thirteen days she lived without food or water and that gradually they were considering to give her liquid artificially. The fact that the human body can live without water for a relatively short period is connected with the fact that even when it is a condition of thirst it has to eliminate water constantly. Even if this elimination is limited to the smallest amounts possible, nevertheless there is a loss of water. We know that the amount of urine which is eliminated normally when the food intake is normal amounts to two to three liters or quarts per day.
It can be reduced up to 200 cc. and that the elimination of water through the heart and lungs is decreased. Observations have even been made that when thirst reaches an extreme the lung is able to take liquid out of the air. The amount of the loss of water is decisive in the question of life and death. One knows from the animal experiments and one concludes it from observation of sea distress that a loss of 22 to 25 percent of the water in the body results in death. In general one considers that if 20 percent is lost the danger to life begins. Up to 10 to 12 percent can be lost without any damage. These amounts are the so-called depot water of the body, that is, the water supply that is free in the body. Only when this has been used up, the water of the body cells is attacked and in this amount between 12 and 22 percent there is some destruction of the cells which does not mean danger to life but danger to the normal function of the body cell. That is a certain danger.
Q: The lack of water is seen by the fact that the organs which contain a lot of water, eliminate water — first of all the skin and the muscles, secondly the blood which is a liquid and contains a lot of water — thus the skin dries up and the mucous begins drying up and there is a hardening of the muscles. The liver becomes slower, because it too eliminates its water, and a so-called thickening of the blood where the solid parts increase proportionately and relatively.
Q: Is the taking away of water also used in medicine for therapeutical reasons?
A: Yes, that is done too. People who suffer from kidney diseases are exposed to thirst under certain circumstances. This is carried on for 10 days, or even longer. Naturally then due to the retention of water the liquid in the body of those persons is increased. But there is also a certain diet which formerly was used for reducing diets, the so-called Schroth diet named after the discoverer Schroth, who discovered this therapy. In this diet they receive only dry solid food, and the liquid is reduced to a very small amount. This diet was carried out formerly to a very heroic extent, and in the older literature there are reports in which 10 to 15 percent of the body liquid was given up by patients.
Q: Are there possibilities during such a diet or during these experiments to calculate a loss of water exactly and to do so constantly to follow how much water is lost?
A: Yes, that can be done very well. There are several ways of doing this. First; the body weight; secondly the measuring of the amount of urine. From the relationship of these two amounts one can to determine the amount of water which is eliminated by the skin and the lungs. Of course, one has to consider how much is lost by water and how much is lost through the hunger, the starving and finally from the analysis of the blood. One can see very quickly to what extent to the drying up is going on, for the blood consist of a watery liquid of albumen on the one hand and a lot of blood cells on the other hand. If water is lost the blood becomes thicker and its protein content becomes larger.
This can be seen through very easy methods of analysis. All of these analysis were carried on during our experiments. Regarding the amount of water lost, we had by using the group which received the Schaefer water to calculate exactly the loss which resulted from the starvation alone, thus we could gain exact figures for the loss of water.
Q: What are the symptoms which result from the taking away of water?
A: I already described them in part. I only want to mention here that in the text books usually one finds definite pictures described, that is by means of an illness which is carried on together with a disturbance of the water balance. That is the so-called diabetes incibidus. In the case of this sickness the human kidney loses its ability to contain water and eliminates endless amounts. Such patients lose 10 to 12 liters, that is quarts, of water per day. In extreme cases 40 liters or quarts have even been observed. It is obvious that these people have to drink just as much as they eliminate. If the water is now taken away from such a patient he naturally reaches the stage of being dried up incomparably quicker than a healthy person. Since there is also a hysterical form of this disease, and this can not be distinguished at first sight from the real disease, the physician is frequently forced to undertake a thirst experiment in order to make a proper diagnosis. Therefore, one knows the strong thirst symptoms. It is obvious that such people if one would take water away from them entirely could be brought to the deadly limit of the loss of water within one or two days. These are people who have brain diseases, and therefore it comes about that in the thirst experiments these people react with very strong nervous systems. Therefore, this is the source of the rumor that the thirst can bring about mental disturbances so easily. In a normal person the thirst experiment never brought about such results.
The second group of diseases are the diarrhea diseases, and I saw not only one but very many dysentery cases in Russia, and they lost up to 20 percent of water, that is the limit of the danger to the life.
This condition is so dangerous because the water is lost so very quickly. Secondly, because salt is lost with it and the lack of salt is always a very great danger, and it is dangerous thirdly because these are toxic diseases. From these diseases one can not draw a parallel, to a normal thirst experiment, because there is a difference between a disease and a condition of lack.
Q: This extraordinarily important difference, could you please explain that to us briefly?
A: In the case of a disease we are always concerned with the struggle between the body and the cause of the disease. That is mostly the bacteria. Here were the positive agents, and here are the defensive forces of the organism. Here there is a struggle between two forces. In the case of a condition of lack it is quite different. The body is deprived of something which is used normally and which it is using normally. Such conditions of lack, for example, are the lack of salt if there has been a great deal of perspiration, and the lack of salt when the kidney is insufficient — the Epinaph insufficiency; then the condition of the lack of vitamin, lack of sugar when large amounts of insulin have been administered, or oxygen lack which Dr. Ruff has described. Thus only one physiological component is lacking here in each case, and one can calculate with small mathematical certainty what this lack is, and for that reason every physician is, so to say, glad that when a sick person does come to him he has to treat a condition of lack of some important component, because therapeutical successes can be gained surely and it can be very quickly. If a person who is in a condition of insulin shock is administered sugar within a few minutes his heavy symptoms are eliminated; is an aenoxymic person is allowed to breathe oxygen he is alright again; if a person who is hungry first is allowed to eat, if a person suffering from thirst is allowed to drink, if a person suffering from lack of vitamins is administered vitamins, he becomes healthy again. Any condition of lack can be cured by administering the component lacking and there is no damage to the body.
There is either two alternatives, one dies because of lack or lack is removed and one becomes healthy again.
Q: Witness, before you said that the taking away of water and the taking of seawater generally brings about the same changes in the body; is seawater as such a toxic?
A: Certainly not, because it is used for purposes of curing people and I can report here from English medical literature that Russell gave one of his patients altogether 112 liters or quarts of seawater, in daily doses of about one-half quart; another person drank for four months one-half quart each morning. That is altogether 60 quarts; and one person for 9 months drank about one-half quart, that is altogether about 135 quarts, of course, together with fresh water. From these figures it is quite apparent that seawater as such can not be toxic, and one also knows that seawater practically never contains germs, bacteria, at least not pathogenic agents. There are many and various examinations that have been carried on about this and from the entire literature about dangers at sea I do not know of any case which reports an intestinal infection one to the taking of seawater. The seawater which we used had been bacteriologically examined in two institutes, moreover it had also been filtered, and it therefore was free of any bacteria. My assistants and I also drank it very frequently, and none of them nor myself either got any intestinal diseases, and neither the experimental subjects. The danger of seawater is alone the fact that it is a relatively highly concentrated salt solution. This needs water for its elimination. This water has to be administered either after fresh water, and if that is not done body water has to be added. If a person is given one quart of seawater to drink a day he must add about one-half quart, because the kidney concentrates only about 2 percent of salt if it concentrates more this additional amount is less. With 500 cubic centimeters one can consider that about 200 percent have to be added by the kidney, that is 200 additional percentage have to be eliminated, if the kidney concentrates as much salt as the seawater is concentrating. This could be seen quite clearly in Sirany's, as well as in my cases. Only that water is lost which is eliminated by the skin and lungs and since this elimination is relatively increased a little. Therefore, seawater can be taken longer than one assumed formerly, according to the theoretical suppositions. Thus the only question is to what extent the water supply of the body is attacked by the taking of seawater.
Q: You now have spoken about the condition between disease and the lack, now I ask you can such a condition of lack be observed so that an endangering of life or health is impossible?
A: Certainly, and we also knew from all of those cases of sea distress who were rescued that they were restored relatively quickly. Among these there were cases that became known of people who while at sea distress lost 40 to 50 pounds in body weight; even a case was described where a person lost 5 stone; in spite of that all of them were restored to health. There is a possibility in such extreme cases, because of course in a condition of lack it is much easier, and one must not forget that in cases of sea distress many other things, such as weather and the lack of sleep and the like are additional strain on the body.
Q: Therefore, during your experiments you could assume with good conscience that your experimental subjects would not suffer any damage?
A: Since the amount of the loss of water was constantly controlled the examination of the blood, urine, and weather were carried on daily, of the metabolism, the lungs, etc. we could, of course, recognize the limit of non-tolerance and therefore I could be sure that he would not go beyond the danger limit. Actually none of my experimental subjects was forces to that sphere. I calculated the loss of water very carefully, and of course gradually saw in so doing that many of my experimental subjects drank fresh water in addition time and again. With this secretive drinking of water they did not do a good service neither to themselves nor to me, not to themselves because the experiment lasted longer. In such a case until I knew with certainty what had calculated this disturbance of this experiment, and they did not do a service to me because a great deal of careful work was destroyed by that.
Q: How were the experimental subjects supervised?
A: In any case it was not as strict as can be seen from these incidents which I have just mentioned, that it would not have been possible for them to drink fresh water on the side, and in some cases it happened not in considerable amounts.
Q: I have to ask you, does this circumstance itself that they again and again drank water does that not speak against the fact that these persons were volunteers?
A: First I want to say that the circumstance that many of the experimental subjects did not drink fresh water on the side speaks for the fact that they were volunteers, and it does absolutely so, for if the possibility to drink fresh water is given and the person does not do so, in spite of that, it must be a volunteer. Moreover, on thirst lets it is an experience which is made daily that even the most intelligent patients time and again drink something on the side in between secretly. Thirst is one of the strongest impulses of nature and it is very difficult not to give in to it, and for that reason thirst experiments have to be carried on behind locked doors, and the doors of my experimental room were apparently not locked securely enough.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, in that connection I want to refer to Document Book 14, from the Document Book Schaefer, page 38, where Huebner, a well known expert, speaks about these measures of locking the room. From my own document book I now want to submit Document 29, Document Book 2, page 108. I give that exhibit number 16.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of the document concerned?
DR. STEINBAUER: No. 29, Document Book 2, page 108, Exhibit 16.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that not Exhibit 15?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes. Excuse me, please. It is No. 15, Your Honor. It is an excerpt from a very well known medical work of Professor Dennig, about the importance of water and the metabolism and nourishment of human beings. I do not want to read the entire excerpts, but I call attention to the center of the first page in which it says:
While the people are able, during the early days, successfully to fight their thirst with a good grace, their energy is insufficient during the later days; they devise extremely subtle means of obtaining water, see the case of Juergensen.
Then on the second page I call your attention to the table of weights, in which the loss of weight is shown in a case, and in the summary at the end I call your attention to "2)" which says:
the weight and size of the body decrease rapidly.
Q: Witness, I ask you did you always terminate the experiments immediately when you found out that fresh water was being drunk?
A: In the few cases where we observed that directly, yes, we did interrupt them. In other cases not always or not immediately. Of course, I often had the suspicion that this had happened, but it was not always possible to prove it immediately, especially in the first series of experiments. I was confronted with great difficulties. First, one had to make exact comparisons of a certain amount of urine and elimination of salt until one could ascertain with certainty. If the experimental subjects had in each case admitted it immediately that they drank fresh water and how much, then, of course, it could have been simple, but in this way we in many cases got friends which lead us on a long course, so that frequently we gained the impression that some salt was being retained, and water being saved up in the body. In other cases one gained the impression that not all of the salt was being absorbed, so that at times I had some doubts and thought that perhaps Berka's preparation does have an effect on the absorption of salt, therefore, I asked the experimental subjects again and again whether they had not after all had some fresh water, in order not to become a subject of deceit, but they constantly and stubbornly denied that, and therefore in many cases at the end of the experiment it was pushed out because if they had taken water the general condition was such a good one that no danger could be expected, no danger of any kind.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court is about to be in recess. I would like to ask you if you can give the Tribunal any estimate as to the length of time your examination of the witness will continue?
DR. STEINBAUER: I believe that I shall be able to finish today.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will be in recess.
(Thereupon a recess recess was was taken.)