1947-06-09, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.

THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed. The Tribunal is again in session.

BY DR. STEINBAUER:

Q: Witness, did the experimental subjects say that they had not drunk any water because they were afraid of punishment?

A: I assured them repeatedly that they would not be punished, either if they had drunk or if they had interfered with the experiment in any other way and no one was punished, not a single person. I merely asked them again and again to tell me the truth because by these evasions the experiment was made very difficult. It was sometimes impossible to form any definite judgment on the experiment especially when small amounts of water were taken.

The experimental subjects had an entirely different reason for keeping their minor and major sins secret from me. At the beginning, as I see now, I made a psychological mistake. I promised that those who did well in the experiment would later be given cigarettes in the form of a premium, as it were, and now they thought that the longer they held out in the experiment the better the experiment would be. Therefore, they tried to stay in the experiment as long as possible and so this prospect of getting cigarettes induced them to get water secretly, and this was the reason why some I caught when they were drinking water, in order to get the cigarettes volunteered again, without any compulsion from my side, to go through the experiment the second time.

Those were eight cases all together, those were people who had lost very little water because they had drunk fresh water during the first experiment, and they were cases which as I can show definitely had at least the same weight when they were released as when they were accepted.

Q: Now from the record of the trial I must show you Exhibit No. 139, the testimony of the witness Tschofenig. He says that you turned the experimental subjects over to the insubordinate ones over to the SS to be treated in the way customary in the camp, what do you have to say about that?

A: That never happened. If the experimental subject repeatedly denied having taken water that annoyed me and I scolded them, I admit that, but I never punished or had punished any one of them. No SS man ever entered my experimental room, none of my experimental subjects was ever turned over to the SS for punishment or to be made compliant and I cannot imagine why Mr. Tschofenig male this statement. Ho probably concludes from the general to the specific. He probably does not care in this case if he said something that is not true. At any rate he has not the shadow of proof.

Q: Mr. President, in this connection I should like to submit Exhibit No. 16, Document No. 16, on page 52 of my document book. This is an excerpt from the book, "The SS State," by Kogon, page 317-318.

MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, I must object to the admission of this extract by Kogon, in as much as this particular extract is taken out of its context, after this paragraph is contained in the document, in Beiglboeck Document Book No. 1. You will find in Kogon's Book, "The SS-State," that in subsequent lines Kogon emphasize the remarkable fact that this attitude — as set forth in this paragraph being introduced now — changed as soon as liberation came.

None of the expected acts occurred, and the prisoners behaved with remarkable objectivity. If at all the whole page of Kogon's book should be introduced to show the fact that the revengeful attitude that might be exhibited in this paragraph Dr. Steinbauer is now introducing, never actually occurred or the inmates didn't exercise such revenge. I think that this should be brought out in this particular connection.

THE PRESIDENT: I wonder if it could be agreed between defense counsel and the Prosecution that any extract from Kogon's book which has not been translated could be used and read into the record by either Prosecution or any defense counsel, and the whole book or all portions deemed pertinent by Prosecution or defense counsel could become a part of the record. I suggest that for consideration by the Prosecution and by the Defense Counsel.

MR. HARDY: Your Honors, I am not off hand able to recollect whether or not Kogon's book has been offered in evidence. Does the Tribunal recall that?

THE PRESIDENT: I don't think so, because it was not translated. We felt that was an unsuitable objection which might well be.

MR. HARDY: Now the introduction of this document, the paragraph which Dr. Steinbauer has extracted, when he introduced this as the Beiglboeck exhibit, could at this time the Tribunal accept the entire book rather than just this extract, then the entire book will be before the Tribunal and we can quote portions or sections thereof in brief or at other instances.

THE PRESIDENT: It was with that end in view that I made the suggestion which I made a moment ago and defense counsel might object if the book has never been translated but they could have it read to them and ascertain if the original of the book was in —

MR. HARDY: The original book is in German, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: It has been translated into English?

MR. HARDY: I think the translations are available in English, your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: The whole book?

MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor.

DR. NELTE (For the defendant Handloser):

Mr. President, I should like to raise a basic objection against the introduction of the whole book, The SS State, by Kogon. The book has three or four hundred pages and has some very important matters in it, but material matters which cannot be checked. The witness Kogon when was on the witness stand here was asked the question, was asked concerning a definite fact in his book, he said I should like to emphasize, I am not being asked about my book here but want to testify merely to what I am asked here and what I answer here, I should like to point out that my request to have the printed report of the meetings of the consulting physicians were not accepted, because they were to extensive and could not be translated. In comparison to that it is a big burden on us defense counsel, if we are now confronted with the question of finding the individual pages in Kogon's book of looking through the whole book and having to disprove statements in it. Therefore, I ask you not to accept the entire book in evidence but merely the pages from it, which are important in the eyes of the Defense and the Prosecution, and which can be certified so that we can answer the individual charges.

THE PRESIDENT: If the book has been translated and copies of the translation of the book can be made available to the Tribunal not as evidence but available to them for reference, then when either the Prosecution or any Defense counsel desires to use any portion of the book, copies of the portion and supplemented by any portions of the context which opposing counsel desires to put in could be introduced in evidence.

I suggest that matter for the consideration of the Prosecution and of the Defense Counsel. It is, of course, unfair that a mere few words out of the context be put in when the context may vary very greatly the meaning of the portion which is introduced in evidence.

DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, that is not the case here. It is only a psychological reference to the fact that the testimony of primitive people must be examined very carefully, because the people have suffered terrible things, that is what the paragraph means, and that is my purpose in submitting it.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course, counsel for Prosecution is of a different opinion, as stated in his objection and the Tribunal is not in a position to rule upon that matter, not having the context of the book before it. I will ask counsel for the Prosecution if he is aware whether or not the translation of this book can be made available to the Tribunal.

MR. HARDY: Yes Your. Honor, I am certain we can. I believe now Judge Swearingen does have one copy and I will make an attempt to get four or five more copies of the English and make them available to the Tribunal. If the Defense counsel could supply the Tribunal with the page number, this paragraph appears in Kogon's book so that it may be compared to the English, and then if the Tribunal desires to place any merit on this particular paragraph they will be able to ascertain where it was taken from and whether or not it is in our out of context.

THE PRESIDENT: Objection is over-ruled. This may be submitted. Prosecution may either furnish copies or furnish additional copies of the adjoining portion of the page, the context of which this is a part, and submit anything it desires in that line.

MR. HARDY: Thank you, your Honor.

DR. STEINBAUER: I shall read this short paragraph then, page 317 and 318:

The majority of those in the camps were filled with an inconceivable desire for revenge, the mental reaction to their helplessness. Tortured people racked their brains for new, greater, far more evil tortures which they would inflict sometime on those who now vented their cruel moods on them. This desire for revenge was extended to the whole national socialist regime and its adherents—

THE PRESIDENT: Do you want that marked as your Exhibit 16, counsel?

DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, 16, please.

Q: Witness, now what were the symptoms which you observed on the experimental subjects during the experiments? Please be brief.

A: In the first period there was the feeling of hunger in the hunger and thirst group because there was still enough available. From the third day on approximately this feeling of hunger was displaced by thirst and practically disappeared. With the loss of water there came a sudden drop in body weight. Therefore, thirst causes a bad appearance. The person becomes very thin, and, of course, to a layman the person looks much sicker while in reality there is merely a lack of water in the skin and the muscles. The skin becomes dry. There is no perspiration, the mucous membranes become dry, the mouth and tongue are dry and the eyes lose their shine and they burn a little. The secretion of saliva is reduced and eating becomes unpleasant. Then the water is lost from the muscles which brings about a hardening of the muscles and excitability of the muscles. There is a feeling of heaviness-in the limbs and a certain uncertainty in movements and also the desire to move as little as possible and to lie in bed. That has the advantage that the loss of water through the lungs is thereby reduced.

The temperature remains normal on the whole. Small variations of 37.3 to 37.5 can be observed in individual cases. There is constipation as is a typical symptom reported from cases of distress at sea. The drying of the palate makes a dry cough in some cases. For the first 2-3- days sleeping is still possible. Then it becomes interrupted and is an interrupted sleep but there is a short period of sleep and then awakening. And, therefore the subjects are sleeping almost somnolent during the day. This condition of dehydration has been described frequently. This occurred in the same way in all the groups which went without water.

THE PRESIDENT: Witness, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1330 this afternoon.

(Thereupon a recess was taken until 1330 hours.)