1947-06-21, #1: Doctors' Trial (early Saturday morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of The United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained if the defendants are all present in court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all defendants in court. Do I understand that the witness Ernst Mettbach is available this morning?
MR. HARDY: Yes. It is my understanding that at the completion of Mettbach's testimony, the defendant Hoven's case will be heard.
DR. STEINBAUER (Attorney for Defendant Beiglboeck): I ask permission, if it may please the Tribunal, to call the witness Ernst Mettbach to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshall will summon the witness Ernst Mettbach.
ERNST METTBACH, a witness, took the stand testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
The witness will stand, raise his right hand and be sworn:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. STEINBAUER (Attorney for Defendant Beiglboeck):
Q: Witness, what is your name?
A: Ernst Mettbach.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: 30 April, 1920, in Fuerth.
Q: Where do you live?
A: Eschenau 10.
Q: What is your profession?
A: Merchant.
Q: What nationality are you?
A: German.
Q: What is your religion?
A: Catholic.
Q: Were you in a concentration camp?
A: Yes, from 6 June, 1944, I was arrested in Fuerth by the Gestapo, and was taken to the police prison in Nurnberg. Five days later I was taken to Auschwitz. About six weeks later I went in a transport of roughly a thousand gypsies to Buchenwald.
Q: How were you accommodated in Buchenwald?
A: We were in a tent camp; the accommodations were very poor because there were many people in Buchenwald; and we were glad when we were put in the transport because we had to sleep on the ground and had only a few blankets.
Q: How did it happen that you took part in the sea water experiments?
A: At a roll call at Buchenwald we were asked whether fifty volunteers — whether forty volunteers would care to go to a special commando to Dachau. I thought this over; Dachau is nearer Fuerth than Buchenwald; perhaps I would get a better set-up, perhaps more food and more freedom, so I and thirty-nine others volunteered for the commando to Dachau.
Q: What did you think this commando would be?
A: We thought this would be a bomb commando because there were lots of bombs dropped around Munich; at that time we thought we would be employed excavating bombs.
Q: Did you think this would be dangerous?
A: We knew that excavating bombs was dangerous, but we nevertheless wanted because we knew we would receive more food and more freedom.
Q: How many gypsies were there when this request went out?
A: There were in total one thousand who went from Auschwitz to Buchenwald.
Q: Then, there were a thousand men there, of whom forty applied; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was any duress put on these forty persons?
A: No. Every one was very eager to be among those forty. Hundreds and hundreds approached this man urging him to accept them, and I was fortunate enough to have been chosen for this commando.
Q: How and when did the transport from Buchenwald to Dachau take place?
A: On the 8th or 9th of August we arrived at Dachau on a special transport; we spent the night in the bathhouse; the next day we were deloused; and we were given clean clothing and were sent to the quarantine station.
Q: How were you accommodated for these days when you were in Dachau, before you went to the sea water station?
A: In the quarantine station every one had his own bed and received regular camp food.
Q: Were you given a medical examination and x-rayed?
A: On the next day we did receive a special medical examined and also were x-rayed; then we were sent back to the quarantine camp.
Q: Where did you go from there?
A: On the next day we went to the hospital station I/1.
Q: How did you like this station?
A: We were very pleasantly surprised by the cleanliness there, and above all we were happy that every one had his own clean bed.
Q: Did you make the acquaintance of one Professor Doctor Beiglboeck?
A: Yes, on the next day Dr. Beiglboeck came to us.
Q: What did he tell you?
A: He introduced himself; he told us that this was an experiment — if a flier falls into the water, he has to live on the water for some length of time; he told us we had to drink sea water for a while; that we would receive good care so that we would recover; afterwards he told us we would be very thirsty, but that we need have no fear, nothing would happen to us; no one would die; and then he told us that he himself had drunk sea water himself. Then, we talked this over among ourselves and felt we had confidence in the Professor, and declared our willingness to participate in the experiment.
Q: Did the Professor then give you another physical examination?
A: Yes, he examined every one from tip to toe.
Q: Did he make substitutions?
A: Yes, as I remember, he did make substitutions for two or three who were too weak. He wanted to make a substitution for me, too, but I asked him particularly to keep me in the experiments because I wanted to stay with my relatives who were there and, moreover, I didn't want to lose the privileges we were promised.
Q: Then you had relatives in there? There was another Mettbach in the experiment?
A: Yes, that was a relative of mine.
Q: Would, you recognize the professor if you say him again?
A: Yes.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, may I ask the witness to see if he can see the professor among the defendants?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may stand up and see if he can pick out the professor, defendant Beiglboeck. If he cannot from his witness chair, he may step out in front of the dock.
A: Yes, I see him. There he is over there, this short fellow here.
THE PRESIDENT: Indicate to the Tribunal the position of the defendant whom you identify as Beiglboeck in the dock by counting from your right.
A: He is in the second row, the third man from the right. First there is a woman and then another gentleman and then Professor Beiglboeck.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be seated. The record will show that the witness had correctly identified the defendant Beiglboeck.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: What sort of food did you get?
A: For three or four days we received the regular camp diet and then from then on we lived like kings. In the morning we got marmalade, margarine, coffee, sugar, 250 grams of black bread.
In the morning, at ten we got a half a liter of unskimmed milk with cakes, cookies — 20 to 25 cookies. At noon, we received a half liter of soup, goulash, potatoes and one slice of bread. At four o'clock p.m. we got 250 grams of bread or five rolls, black coffee with sugar. In the evening we got an egg, a piece of cheese, 30 grams of good butter, potatoes with soup, black bread and tea.
Q: How long did you get this sort of food?
A: Exactly one week.
Q: Do you know the nurse Max?
A: Yes, he was the one that stole our food and when we complained about Max, the Professor removed him immediately.
Q: Did Professor Beiglboeck concern himself personally about the food?
A: Yes, he checked on the food daily. I can remember very clearly that once a can of meat came to us which was discolored, being black, and the professor immediately had it exchanged for another.
Q: Now, before the experiment proper began did the professor carry out other examinations?
A: Yes, there was daily blood, analysis. Urine was measured and stool — blood pressure — and people were weighed daily.
Q: Did this hurt?
A: No, it didn't.
Q: What did the scale look like? Could persons be weighed on it prostrate?
A: No.
Q: Were you weighed daily?
A: Yes, every morning.
Q: Who wrote down your weights?
A: I think it was written down by two French medical students. They also measured urine and stool — that is to say, wrote down the statistics on that.
Q: Into how many groups did the professor divide them into?
A: As far as I can recall, five.
Q: After he had divided them this way, did he examine them again?
A: Yes, they were all examined again.
Q: What group were you in?
A: I was in the Schaefer group, so far as I remember, and I had Experimental Number 9 and my relative had the number 10.
Q: What's your relative's name?
A: Mettbach, just like mine.
Q: Could the persons who were not in the experiments move around in the courtyard or did they have to remain in the barracks?
A: In the preparatory period we could all take walks in the courtyard but during the experiment only those whose experiment had already been interrupted or concluded could walk around and these people had to eat in the courtyard so that the persons in the experiment wouldn't see them eating.
Q: Did the professor himself drink sea water?
A: I don't know for sure but I believe my comrades told me that before the experiment began the professor first drank sea water so that my comrades wouldn't have the idea it might be poison.
Q: Well, did you ever actually get in the experiment yourself?
A: No, I didn't, I dropped out of the experiment in the preliminary period. This was on the fourth of fifth day. I suddenly got a fever. I was taken right to the x-ray station and I was examined there for pneumonia. I received treatment and aspirin tablets. After two or three days I was taken to Station III/2 which was the internal station. There the professor asked about me the next day and asked me how things were going. Three days later I got up and met the professor in the corridor in front of the washroom. Ho greeted me and asked me whether I was in good health again. I told him that everything was going along all right and asked him whether I might not visit my comrades.
Beiglboeck allowed this and every day I was permitted to visit my friends.
Q: But what conditions did he make when you visited your comrades?
A: He told me that I should under no circumstances bring them any fresh water and I should behave because they weren't allowed to drink any fresh water but had to drink sea water.
Q: Then where were you actually accommodated during the experiment?
A: I was accommodated in Station III — that was the station for internal diseases — in Room 2.
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honors, may I please ask the Tribunal to take the sketch which the witness Pillwein drew? This is the ground plan of the camp. It is important. This is Exhibit 21. It's important to ascertain how far the sea water station was from the station in which the witness Mettbach was accommodated. If the Tribunal would be so gracious as to look at this chart —
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us the volume and page in which this chart may be found?
DR. STEINBAUER: This is page 125 of Document Book No. 2. That is Beiglboeck's Document No. 2, I assume.
Where the sea water station is we have already discussed. Now, the sick room is Block No. 1, right across from the sea water station. Then there is a blocked street and then you can see block No. 3 (internal station), Wards 2, 3 and A. The witness Mettbach has said that this is where he spent his nights. I further draw the attention of the Tribunal on this occasion to the fact that on the sketch, at the top, under the word "Appellplatz," which means "roll call courtyard," there is the sickroom, Surgical "A", to the right.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Now, witness, how far was your room in Block 3 from the sea water station?
A: About thirty paces.
Q: Thank you, Please tell us what you saw during the experiments when you visited your friends during the day.
A: My comrades told me above all they were very thirsty and hungry and they asked me if I couldn't bring them a little water. They smoke quite a few cigarettes. They gave me some because I wasn't allowed to smoke in my sick station. They told me that they had to drink sea water and receive dextrose and such things — this looked like chocolate but it wasn't — that they were weighed daily and that they were thirsty. As I said, they did a lot of sleeping and were nervous. I could not do much talking with my friends because most of the time they were lying on their beds asleep.
Q: The professor forbade your bringing them water. Did you, nevertheless bring them water? Now, be honest.
A: Several times I brought my relative Mettbach water to drink.
Q: Where did you give it to him?
A: Sometimes I smuggled it in to the experimental station myself. Sometimes I stuck it in through the fly screen which was a little bit loose on the window.
Q: Could the experimental subjects receive packages?
A: Yes, they could. I myself received none because I was only in Dachau for a short while and the mails took too long. One Taubmann and another man named Bamberger received packages every week.
Q: Where these packages given to the experimental subjects during the preparatory period?
A: The experimental subjects did receive the packages during the preparatory period. During the experiment proper they did not receive the packages. They were saved up for them until after the experiment.
Q: Now, when the experiment was over, did the people recover rapidly, or did it take a long while?
A: Since they all received good food, they recovered very quickly.
Q: Do you know that some of the experimental subjects repeated the experiment?
A: Yes, I remember some who double-crossed the Professor by drinking water. The Professor raised a big rumpus about that and gave them no cigarettes, took their cigarette ration away. Then, they promised not to do it again and asked to be allowed to repeat the experiment because they didn't want to lose the promised privileges after the experiment.
Q: Did you see any bodies carried out of the experimental station on a stretcher?
A: No.
Q: Were persons who weren't dead carried out of the experimental station on stretchers?
A: Yes, and they were taken to the electro-cardiograph station and then I was carried to Station III.
Q: Did you observe how these people looked when they were being carried? Were they covered or where they open?
A: Mostly, they were covered because they had to be carried past the wash room, and fresh water was running there all day long. So that they shouldn't see this water, they were covered over with a white sheet.
Q: Did you see cramps, or convulsions, or raving?
A: No, and I never even heard of that.
Q: One gypsy is said to have laid on the floor for an half an hour in cramps and finally had to get back into his own bed by himself.
A: I don't believe that is so because if it had happened, my comrades would certainly have told me about it.
Q: Would the comrades let the man lie on the floor half an hour?
A: That is out of the question. That isn't the way they acted.
Q: Did some of the experimental subjects have diarrhea during the experiment?
A: In the preparatory period some of them did have diarrhea, probably because they couldn't stand the good food; but during the experiment, no.
Q: Were blood samples taken?
A: Yes, daily.
Q: Who did it?
A: Usually Professor Beiglboeck. I'd like to remark here that the Professor, when he did take the blood samples, was very tender and gentle. I myself can judge that. I have received injections in other camps, usually by SS-men or nurses, and they were very careless.
Q: Did you see punctures given in the abdomen?
A: In some of my comrades, I saw that on the right side, they were covered with adhesive tape; I asked them what it was, and they said they had received an injection.
Q: Did they tell you that that hurt?
A: They said it wasn't as bad as having a tooth pulled.
Q: Did you ever hear that experimental subjects drank dirty water?
A: No, I never did, and if it had happened, the comrades would certainly have told me.
Q: How did Professor Beiglboeck treat the subjects as a whole?
A: We were treated very well. He was very attentive.
Q: Didn't he curse and scold?
A: Well, some times when a person drank water behind his back he did curse a bit, but he recovered his good humor almost immediately every time.
Q: Did he pass out cigarettes?
A: In the preparatory period, we received two or three cigarettes a day. During the experiment, the Professor gave us as many cigarettes as we wanted.
He was passing them out all the time.
Q: Did you remember that there were also Austrian gypsies in the experiment?
A: Yes, I do. I can't tell you for sure how many there were. I think it was about 10 or 15. And there were also Burgenlaenders there.
Q: And what language did they talk?
A: Usually we talked the gypsy language. When we talked to the Professor, we all talked German.
DR. STEINBAUER: May it please the Tribunal, under Exhibit No. 35 I should like to put in pictures of the experimental subjects. The Prosecution already has a copy of this, so that I may have these photographs identified by the witness.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honors, the prosecution must object to the introduction of these photographs until they are substantiated. The original photographs are not available for the Tribunal, and it is rather difficult to ascertain if these photographs are the actual photographs taken. The original photographs have markings on the backs thereof, and the prosecution desires to see the originals. If they are available, then I have no objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Has defense counsel the original photographs?
DR. STEINBAUER: Of course, and there is nothing on the backs of them. I showed them to Professor Alexander once, and the thing on the back was the trademark of the firm that made the paper. I should have been only too glad to find names on the back so I could have identified them.
THE PRESIDENT: The prosecution may examine the photographs.
MR. HARDY: May I ask the defense counsel where he secured these?
THE PRESIDENT: Can defense counsel answer the prosecution's question?
DR. STEINBAUER: Before Easter when I was in Vienna, I found these photographs among the papers and what-not that had to do with sea-water.
They were in the same place with these fever charts. I took them along with me and showed them to Mr. Beiglboeck and asked if they were the experimental subjects, and he said they were. Now, I'd like to have them identified by the witness so that he can say these really are the experimental subjects.
MR. HARDY: I have no further objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may hand the photographs to the witness.
A: There is Reinhardt —
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Mr. Mettbach, just wait a moment so that the Tribunal can follow you. Let's go through page by page.
THE PRESIDENT: What identification number, what exhibit number are you going to give to these photographs?
DR. STEINBAUER: Number 35.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Are the persons on the first page experimental subjects?
A: Yes, all of them are. I recognize all of them. I don't know their names, but I do recognize their faces.
Q: Now, let's turn to the second page.
A: There I am on the second page here. First on the left at the bottom.
Q: But you are very thin, emaciated.
A: That is the way I am. I have always been thin.
Q: Do you know any of these people?
A: Yes, next to me is Reinhardt. Xaver Reinhardt is his name. The rest of their names, I don't know.
Q: Page 3, are those experimental subjects?
A: Yes, all of them. The first in the top row, on the left, is Bamberger, the next is my relative Mettbach, the third is Laubinger. The rest of them I don't know. I don't know the names of any of the others.
Those must have been the Austrians, the other ones.
Q: Turn to the next page.
A: Yes, these persons were also in the experiment, but I don't know their names.
Q: Go through these photographs page by page and tell me whether all of them are experimental subjects?
A: Yes, they are. Yes, they were all there. I recognize a few of them. Page 5 I recognize those. That chap's name must be Franz, if I remember rightly.
THE PRESIDENT: On the photograph, which do you identify as Franz, witness?
A: Page 5. There are two pictures, both of them are Franz.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: What is being done to Franz there?
A: In the lower picture he is having a blood sample taken. I don't know by name anyone on page 6. I don't know the man's name on page 7 either. On page 8 I don't know the names. On page 9 I recognize the people. The man lying down in the top row in the middle is Henreiner, and the picture next to that is also Henreiner. Below that is a Frenchman; I recognize him. And here is a little gypsy that was the youngest one there, the Professor's favorite. We called him the Parrot, Papagei. He is standing next to the Frenchman.
Q: Witness, were these experimental subjects strong persons or weaklings?
A: You can see from the pictures that they are all strong. I was the weakest one of them all. You can see that they are strong, healthy people in these pictures.
Q: Didn't the Professor want to eliminate you because you were so weak?
A: Yes. As I told you, he did try to eliminate me, but I asked him to keep me in the experiment.
Q: The last two pictures are not pictures of experimental subjects. Those are two prison doctors, aren't they?
A: Yes, I recognize these. One of them is a Frenchman. He is taking blood pressure here. Next to him is the little fellow I told you who was called the Parrot. He is a gypsy, and the other chap with the microscope is also a Frenchman. They were not in the experiment.
Q: Yes, I wanted to make it clear that they were not in the experiment.
A: No, they were simply helping the Professor.
Q: Now, let us go on. Were minors among the experimental persons? You just spoke of one from the Burgenland.
A: Yes, that was the Parrot. There were other young people there but they were 20 to 25 years old.
Q: Were these minors that you just mentioned strong or weak physically?
A: They were all strong.
Q: Do you know in what experiment, to what experimental group they were assigned?
A: As far as I know the minors were put into the group where the experiments were the easiest.
Q: What language did you speak among yourselves?
A: Mostly in gypsy language.
Q: What was the citizenship of the individual experimental subjects?
A: Mostly they were Germans. There were a lot of Austrians and a lot of them came from East Prussia and Upper Silesia and the Burgenland.
Q: You said that you were sick. During the experiment were other subjects brought to the hospital?
A: No, only I was.
Q: Were there SS doctors in the experimental station?
A: Never. I never saw one there.
Q: What doctors did you see in the station 3 where you slept?
A: Those were mostly prisoner doctors and prisoner nurses. The senior doctor of the hospital was an SS doctor named Hintermeyer. This man was a very bad man. He sent people who were still very sick back to work.
Q: Now, when the experiment was over did the subjects receive decent food?
A: Yes. First of all they received diet food; they were on a diet first of all, and then they received the good food that they had received before the experiments that I described.
Q: Now, these were simple people in the experiment. Were they constantly afraid of death or did they fear that they were on the point of death all the time?
A: No, they didn't have to and they didn't, because the Professor assured us that no one was going to die, that nothing was going to happen to us, and we had complete confidence in the Professor.
Q: Could a man stop the experiment whenever he wanted to, or did he have to ask permission?
A: The Professor examined the persons daily and when he saw that things were going badly with them, then he interrupted the experiment himself.
Q: Do you think anybody died as a consequence of the experiments?
A: That is completely out of the question. I met all of my comrades later in the streets of the camp.
Q: How long were you there after the experiments were terminated?
A: I was let out a few days before the end of the experiments, let out from the sick room and then I was sent to Block 22. I was there for two or three days and then all my comrades returned. Some of them also went to Block 22 and the others went to other blocks, but we met all the time and we talked about the commando we were about to receive and were happy that things were going to go better for us now.
Q: I must tell you that a witness said here that three days after the experiments were over, one of the experimental subjects suddenly died.
A: None of the experimental subjects died three days after the experiment. It might have been another gypsy. There were lots of other gypsies in the camp Dachau.
Q: Now, I am asking you very explicitly and I remind you that you are testifying under oath. You know what the consequences can be if you perjure yourself. Do you consider it out of the question that any of the gypsies died, or do you think that it is perhaps possible? What do you know about this?
A: So far as I know I can only say that none of the experimental subjects died.
I know absolutely for certain that I met every one of them in the camp streets afterwards and spoke with them.
Q: Would anyone have told you if Max, Meyer or Huber or somebody had died?
A: No, if anybody had died, of course, that news would have spread through the camp immediately. There would have been a little uproar among us if that had happened, but it didn't.
Q: Did the people really receive this good food that you have been talking about?
A: Yes, of course they really did.
Q: Even after the experiment?
A: Three or four days outer the experiment they got the food. First they were on a diet and then they received this good food that I mentioned.
Q: Do you know whether Professor Beiglboeck, after the experiments, did something in behalf of the gypsies?
A: So far as I know the Professor got in touch with the camp commander, but I can't tell you this for sure because all of a sudden I was sent out of Dachau in a large transport, and I didn't know at the time where it was going. Then, to my horror, I found myself in Mauthausen.
Q: Since you mention Mauthausen how did things go with you there?
A: I had terrible experiences there. I had to work first of all in a quarry, and then was sent to the outlying camp Melk. There I stayed for seven or eight months; then in Easter of '45 I was taken back from Melk to Mauthausen and then, on the 5th of May I was liberated by the American troops.
Q: When you were taken back from Melk to Mauthausen did any die then?
A: That was the worst night of my life. We were called up at 5:00 in the morning. We were all sick and weak. Then the train went back to Mauthausen and it took all night. Thirty-six people died in the car in which I was before we reached Mauthausen.
Q: Now, let's get back to the experiments. Do you know that there was a liaison man that Beiglboeck appointed between him and the experimental subjects?
A: Yes, there was. He had been in the camp for quite a while and knew his way around the camp. He was the oldest one among us.
Q: Do you know whether any of the subjects had the so-called escape point?
A: Yes, two of them. Bamberger was one of them.
Q: They did have escape points?
A: Yes, they did.
Q: Do you know how the Professor treated these people?
A: The Professor promised them that if they finished the experiment they would have the escape point taken away from them, and this would have made things much easier for them because people with the escape point couldn't have around freely in the camp.
Q: That point meant that they had attempted to escape. Were there, among the experimental subjects, persons who had been in the Army?
A: Yes, I think once two gentlemen from Munich came. I think they were from the Gestapo, and they asked us about our families. I think they were looking for reasons to let us leave the camp. I think one of them told them that he had the Iron Cross, second class.
Q: Were you in the Wehrmacht yourself?
A: No, but I was in the Reich Labor Service.
Q: Do you remember a nurse from Vienna, a young fellow?
A: Yes, he talked the same dialect as the Professor speaks.
Q: Was his name maybe Pillwein?
A: I don't know his name, but I believe this was the nurse who took Max's place when Max was fired.
Q: What triangle did the gypsies wear?
A: They all wore black.
Q: What triangle color did you wear?
A: Black.
Q: Weren't there gypsies with the brown triangle?
A: That was earlier. Then in 1940 that brown triangle was done away with.
Q: What did the brown triangle mean?
A: That also meant asocial and slackers.
Q: How did you get into the concentration camp?
A: I was alleged to be asocial. I was taken to the concentration camp without really knowing why, probably because I am a gypsy.
Q: After the liberation in 1945 did you meet any of these gypsies later?
A: Yes, once I met Henreiner.
Q: What did he tell you?
A: He told me that things were going badly with him at the moment. I asked him where he lived. He said in the neighborhood of Augsburg and was a worker there. He said that on his upper thigh he had had an operation. He had been used for a plegmone experiment and then we just talked shop and that was all.
Q: Did he curse about the sea water experiments?
A: No, not exactly curse. He did say, however, that he was not being very well treated after he had done so much in the experiments.
Q: Did you meet anybody else?
A: Yes, I met Reinhardt.
Q: Did you meet Laubinger and Bamberger?
A: No, I never saw them again.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Have any other defense counsel any questions to propound to this witness? There being none, the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, on the 6th of June 1944, when you were arrested by the Gestapo, were you told the reasons for your arrest?
A: No, I was given no reasons, but I assumed that I was arrested because I am a gypsy.
Q: You were arrested and placed in a concentration camp simply because you were a gypsy, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever committed any crimes prior to that time?
A: No, but I once was fined for breaking a work contract.
Q: You were never in jail for any other criminal offense before the 6th of June 1744?
A: Yes, I had 3 months in jail for breaking that work contract I just mentioned.
Q: When you arrived in the Dachau Concentration Camp you were on a special Commando detail, is that correct?
A: We were taken to the quarantine station immediately.
Q: But you volunteered to go to Dachau for a special commando, didn't you?
A: Yes; in Buchenwald we volunteered and that is why we went to Dachau. We were then sent to the quarantine station, and waited to be sent to the promised special commando.
Q: How many other gypsies accompanied you from Buchenwald to Dachau?
A: Exactly 40 in toto; 39 others and myself.
Q: Were they all volunteers for this special commando?
A: Yes, we all volunteered in Buchenwald.
Q: When you arrived at Dachau you state you were given a physical examination. Who gave you that examination?
A: First we were examined by a prisoner-doctor. Then we were x-rayed.
Q: Who x-rayed you?
A: That also was done by a prisoner; that was the so-called x-ray Capo.
Q: Then you were asked to participate in the sea-water experiments?
A: No. First of all we were taken to I/1.
Q: That was the sea water station, wasn't it?
A: Yes, that was the sea-water station.
Q: There each one of you were asked if you wished to volunteer for the sea-water experiments?
A: Then Professor Beiglboeck came and explained the experiment, pointing out to us that we would be very thirsty but that we need not be afraid; nothing would happen to us; nobody would die. Then we said we would be willing to participate.
Q: And he asked each one of you to volunteer?
A: We all 40 of us were there together and he explained this business to us. We talked it over among ourselves and declared our willingness.
Q: How many refused?
A: Nobody.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Yes.
Q: Think about that a moment. Are you sure — again?
A: I am absolutely certain that no one refused.
Q: Everyone was happy that they were going to be subjected to seawater experiments?
A: Yes, we were all happy about this. We were told that after the experiment we would receive an easy commando and given food and we would get cigarettes; after we heard this, we all declared our willingness.
Q: After you had received the physical examination, wasn't it true that they were going to drop you from the experiment?
A: Yes. Professor Beiglboeck wanted to exchange me but I begged him to leave me in the experiment because I didn't want to be separated from my friends, particularly from my relative, Mettbach, and because I did not want to lose the advantages that had been promised.
Q: Is it possible that you were the only volunteer of the 44 men used in the experiment — you were the only one that wanted to stay there because you had relatives there and didn't want to be separated from your colleagues?
A: No, we all wanted to be there.
Q: Did Laubinger want to be there?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Reinhardt want to be there?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know that?
A: I was with them. We talked with each other.
Q: You don't suppose it is possible they didn't want to be there?
A: You are asking whether it is possible they did not want to be there — those two?
Q: Yes.
A: No, they declared their willingness after we all had talked the matter over.
Q: Would you consider, that they are careless with the truth if they are to say that you were the only volunteer?
A: We were all volunteers. We all applied for this experiment.
Q: Did you know each subject used in the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: You knew every one of them?
A: Yes, every one of them. I knew every single one.
Q: Did you know their names?
A: In the experimental station I knew almost all the names but I have forgotten them in the meantime. I remember some of them but of course I have forgotten a great number of them.
Q: How many men were used in the experiments?
A: At first 40 men; then 3 or 4 more gypsies came from Dachau; in toto we were 44 people.
Q: Did you know Johann Anger?
A: Anger?
Q: Yes.
A: Spell it, please.
Q: A-n-g-e-r.
A: No.
Q: He was one of the subjects. I thought you knew them all?
A: I knew them all. Maybe I have forgotten the name, but as far as I know I did not know this man, Anger.
Q: Did he volunteer?
A: Who, Anger?
Q: Yes.
A: We all volunteered.
Q: Did you know Paul Franz?
A: Franz? Yes, I recognized him in the pictures here.
Q: What's his nationality?
A: German. He was from Bremen, if I remember.
Q: You are sure he isn't Polish?
A: Franz? There is no possibility that Franz was a Pole.
Q: Were there any foreign nationals — that is, men other than Germans, used in these experiments?
A: Austrians and Burgenlaender and some from Upper Silesia and East Prussia.
Q: No Czechoslovakians?
A: No.
Q: No Russians?
A: No.
Q: No Polish?
A: A couple of them talked Polish but I think they came from Upper Silesia or East Prussia. That very often happens. Lots of Upper Silesians can talk Polish. I can't tell you for sure.
Q: Was your number 91147 — your shipment number?
A: My Dachau number? I can't remember any more but I think it was 91147 or 91145, I am not sure.
Q: You lived in Furth before you were incarcerated in the concentration camp?
A: Yes, I was born there.
Q: You lived on Fischerstrasse?
A: Yes.
Q: On 9 August 1944 you left Buchenwald?
A: Yes, that is about right. It was either the 8th of 9th of August that we went to Dachau — it might even have been the 10th.
Q: When did you go to Mauthausen?
A: About the end of September or beginning of October.
Q: You are sure it wasn't the 14th of September 1944?
A: When I went to Mauthausen?
Q: That's right — the 14th day of September 1944?
A: I can't say this for sure but I think it was the end of September.
Q: Would the records of the— the Dachau records of the prisoner's transfers be incorrect if they said that on 14 September 1944 you were transferred to Mauthausen?
A: That I cannot tell you, — whether they are wrong.
Q: When did the experiments end?
A: About the middle of September.
Q: And you had already gone to Mauthausen, hadn't you?
A: No.
Q: Then the Dachau records of the transfer of inmates are incorrect and you didn't leave on the 14th of September for Mauthausen?
A: That I cannot say for sure but as far as I know, the experiments ended about the middle of September.
Q:And two or three days after the experiments were completed, according to your own testimony, is that correct?
A: I saw all of the subjects after the experiment. That I know for sure. It was a few days after that t at I left. I was the first of the experimental subjects who left Dachau.
Q: Somebody could have died after you left, without your knowing about it, is that right?
A: That could be, of course.
Q: And if you left on the 14th of September, did you leave before the completion of the experiments?
A: No. This I know for certain. When the experiments were concluded I was still at Dachau.
Q: What date were they concluded?
A: That I don't know for sure.
Q: Was professor Beiglboeck still at Dachau when you left or had he gone back to Vienna?
A: That I don't know. I saw Professor Beiglboeck for the last time when I was released from the hospital.
Q: How did you happen to know his name to be Beiglboeck.
A: I didn't know that at that time. I just found out here that his name was Beiglboeck.
Q: You didn't know that when you were in the concentration camp?
A: No. I didn't know his name in the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume counsel that your cross examination will continue for some time?
MR. HARDY: This is a good breaking point, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minute.