1947-06-21, #2: Doctors' Trial (late Saturday morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN: (Attorney for Defendant Pokorny) Mr. President, may I ask to have the defendant Pokorny excused this afternoon because I need him to prepare his case?
THE PRESIDENT: Upon the request of Counsel for the Defendant Pokorny that he be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon, the Court grants the request, it appearing that it is necessary that the defendant consult with his counsel. His absence from the Tribunal will not prejudice his case.
DR. GAWLIK (Attorney for Defendant Hoven): Mr. President, the Defense Counsel can speak to the defendant only in the morning and afternoon.
Since the Court is sitting all day today, I would have no opportunity to speak to my client, Dr. Hoven. I can assume that my examination will be finished Monday, and then Dr. Hoven will be cross examined, and again I will be unable to speak to him, as I will be unable to speak to my client at all during the examination. I assume that some questions will come up during the direct examination. Therefore, I wonder whether it would not be possible for the Court to rule that I be allowed to see my client this evening or tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may consult with his client Hoven this evening or tomorrow morning, subject to the regulations of security, which I presume can be arranged so that counsel may consult his client either this evening or tomorrow morning, or, both times if he desires to do so. That is a wish of the Tribunal — I presume that security will conform to these directions; and the Court can arrange that counsel.may consult with his client any evening next week — whether the defendant Hoven is under direct or cross examination.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you.
DR. GIERL (Attorney for Defendants Fischer, Gebhardt, and Oberheuser):
Mr. President, the defendant Gebhardt has heart trouble, and the defendant Oberheuser is also ill. I submit a certificate by the prison doctor, Dr. Pfuecker, for the defendant Gebhardt; I shall bring a certificate for the defendant Oberheuser later, I request that these two defendants be excused from the session this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is the defendant referred to on this certificate. You mentioned the defendant Oberheuser on both occasions.
DR. GIERL: Gebhardt and Oberheuser.
THE PRESIDENT: I note that this certificate of the surgeon refers to the defendant Gebhardt, and counsel referred to and mentioned the defendant Oberheuser. Will the certificate by the surgeon be filed in regard to the excusing of the defendant Oberheuser?
DR. GIERL: May I correct Your Honor. What I intended to say was that I shall bring a certificate for the defendant Oberheuser later.
THE PRESIDENT: And you desire them to be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon?
DR. GIERL: Yes, please.
THE PRESIDENT: Pursuant to the certificate by the prison official — who is Dr. Pfuecker?
DR. GIERL: I am informed that Dr. Pfuecker is the prison doctor — the German prison doctor?
THE PRESIDENT: These certificates are usually filed by the American prison doctor who is in charge of the defendants. If these defendants desire to be excused this afternoon, I suggest you procure certificates from the American surgeon in charge of the prison. Upon filling of those certificates, the defendants Oberheuser and Gebhardt may be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon.
DR. GIERL: Thank you.
ERNST METTBACH - Resumed
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, you know the name Robert Adler?
A: I remember the name.
Q: Did he come from Buchenwald in the transport with you to Dachau on 9 August 1944?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he of Polish nationality?
A: No, he was not a Pole.
Q: You are certain of that?
A: Yes.
Q: Why are you certain of that?
A: Because I talked to him. I remember very well he talked German to me.
Q: Is it possible that a Polo could speak German?
A: It is possible.
Q: You don't know whether or not he was Polish, do you?
A: As far as I know he must have been from East Prussia.
Q: Do you know Siegmund Grsbowski, spelled G-r-s-b-o-w-s-k-i?
A: I don't remember the name.
Q: You don't remember that? He came in the transport with you on 9 August 1944.
A: It is possible but I don't remember the name.
Q: You didn't know all the subjects that came with you on the transport, did you?
A: I knew them by sight but I don't know all their names.
Q: You don't know whether or not he was Polish, do you?
A: What was the name?
Q: Grsbowski.
A: I don't know for certain.
Q: Did you know Johann Vongilaj, spelled V-o-n-g-i-l-a-j?
A: I do not remember that name.
Q: Did you know Roman Gusew, spelled G-u-s-e-w?
A: No, I do not remember that name either.
Q: He was a Russian. Came on the transport with you from Buchenwald to Dachau.
A: That's impossible. There were no Russians on our transport. We were all gypsies.
Q: Could he have been a gypsy born in Russia?
A: I don't think there was any Russian gypsy.
Q: You really don't know, do you?
A: No.
Q: Did you know Jacob Bamberger?
A: Yes.
Q: He came on the transport with you, didn't he?
A: No, he came from Dachau.
Q: He was at Flossenburg before that, wasn't he?
A: I don't know.
Q: Didn't you know him?
A: Yes, I knew him. I met him in Dachau.
Q: He was a German, wasn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: You state that he volunteered for the experiments?
A: Yes, he was present while Professor Beiglboeck explained the experiment to us and we all said we were willing. We could have gone back to the block if we wanted to and gone back to work.
Q: If you had gone back to the block, would you have been treated as a saboteur?
A: No. I would have been put to work.
Q: Did any of your gypsy friends desire to be relieved of the experiments and upon requesting not to be used in the experiments was told by Beiglboeck that he would be hanged by Beiglboeck as a saboteur if he refused?
A: No, that is impossible. Professor Beiglboeck never said that.
Q: You never heard anything about that?
A: No.
Q: Could you state that your fellow gypsies used in the experiments were being careless with the truth if they state one of the men was refused and threatened in that manner?
A: If they testified as a witness?
Q: Yes, suppose one of the other gypsies stated that. Would you state they were telling the truth?
A: Yes, I can say that that is not the truth. I never heard any such thing. I know that for certain.
Q: It could have happened without you knowing about it, couldn't it?
A: As long as I was in the experiment I never heard of any such thing. I am sure my comrades would have told me if such a thing had happened.
Q: Do you know Siegfried Schmidt?
A: Yes, I know Schmidt but I don't think he was in the experiments. He was at Dachau. His name was Schmidt.
Q: What number were you in the experiment? Bed #9, weren't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Your relative was in bed #10, wasn't the?
A: Yes, I remember that very well.
Q: Who was in bed no. 8?
A: Bed #8, that must have been Laubinger. Laubinger was in my group, too.
Q: Laubinger was in bed #7. Who was in bed #8?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you know who was in bed #11?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Well, that was Siegfried Schmidt for your information, witness, in bed #11, and you don't remember him?
A: No.
Q: Just two beds away from you?
A: I don't understand the question.
Q: He was only two beds away from you and you don't remember Siegfried Schmidt?
A: No, I don't remember him.
Q: He was a German gypsy, born in Hamburg.
A: I don't remember him.
Q: Did you know Paul Hirschberg?
A: No. I don't remember this name.
Q: Did you know Edmund Hirschberg?
A: I don't remember that name either.
Q: Did you know Alfred Hoff, H-o-f-f?
A: Hoff?
Q: H-o-f-f, Hoff.
A: No.
Q: He came in the transport with you from Buchenwald, didn't he?
A: I do not remember. I don't remember all the names. That was four years ago.
Q: He was in bed #44.
A: That's possible. I don't know. I don't know Hoff.
Q: Did you know Oleskewitsch? I will spell that for you. It is a name that I can't pronounce too well. Spelled O-l-e-s-k-e-w-i-t-s-c-h.
A: No, I don't remember that name.
Q: You don't remember that name. Wasn't he one of the men who was used in the experiment but did not come from Buchenwald? He was in bed #17, witness.
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know much about these subjects, do you?
A: I can't remember all their names. I remember some names because I knew the people and they were easy names to remember — Bamberger, Laubinger, Reinhardt.
Q: This subject was a Russian gypsy. You don't know him?
A: No.
Q: Did you know Michael Durnow, spelled D-u-r-n-o-w? Also a Russian gypsy. He was in bed #20. Did you know him?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Did you know Victor Viljaew, spelled V-i-l-j-a-e-w?
A: No. I don't remember that name.
Q: Did you know Joseph Reinhardt?
A: His name was Xaver Reinhardt, not Joseph.
Q: Pardon me, I meant M-e-i-n-h-a-r-d-t, Joseph.
A: No, I don't remember the name Meinhardt.
Q: Did you know Raymond Papain, P-a-p-a-i-n?
A: Unless it was this little gypsy whom we called Papagei (parrot). He came from Burgenland. He was the professor's favorite.
Q: Why was he the professor's favorite?
A: Because he came from Burgenland perhaps — because he was an Austrian. Maybe because he was young.
Q: He was sixteen years old, wasn't he?
A: Yes, that's about right.
Q: Did you know Adolf Lafontaine?
A: No.
Q: Did you know Herman Mellanewsky?
A: I don't remember that name.
Q: That is a Polish name, isn't it?
A: Polish names are hard to remember. I can't remember.
Q: Well then, there were Polish people in the experiments, weren't there?
A: I don't think so. They were mostly from Upper Silesia and East Prussia and there are many Polish names there.
Q: Do you know Barriansky?
A: No.
Q: Strauss, Reinhold Strauss?
A: I remember that name Strauss.
Q: Do you know Fritz Rosinsky?
A: No.
Q: Karl Bernard?
A: Bernhardt?
Q: B-e-r-n-a-r-d.
A: I remember vaguely but I am not certain.
Q: You know? Karl Steinbach?
A: I remember that name, too.
Q: You know Georg Papi, spelled P-a-p-i, P-a-p-a-i, pardon me.
A: That must be the little gypsy, the young one. We called him Papagei.
Q: Well, now he was subjected to sea water, wasn't he. Straight sea water in the course of the experiments, this young boy?
A: As far as I remember he was in a very easy group.
Q: Would you consider it an easy group to receive 500 cc of sea water to drink every day. Was that one of the easy groups. He was subject #37. That was one of the bad groups, wasn't it?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Well, you don't know, do you, whether these young boys were used in the most strenuous groups?
A: The young people were mostly put in the easy groups. As far as I remember the worst group was group one.
Q: Mow, do you know Johann Reinhardt?
A: No, not Johann Reinhardt. I knew Xaver Reinhardt.
Q: Do you know Stanislaus Pacskowski, P A C S K O W S K I?
A: I can't remember.
Q: He was only two or three beds away from you. He was in bed No. 6.
A: I can't remember those names.
Q: Of course, you knew Xaver Reinhardt?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know Franz Klavda, spelled K L A V D A?
A: I don't remember that name.
Q: He was a Czechoslovakian.
A: No, there was no Czech there.
Q: You're certain of that, are you?
A: Yes.
Q: Suppose he told you he was a Czech; would you disbelieve him?
A: Yes, if he had told me he was a Czech, I would have believed him.
Q: He was in bed No. 2. Did you ever get an opportunity to talk to him?
A: I can't remember that.
Q: Did you have to stay in bed all the time during that first week or could you walk around and go out into the yard?
A: No, in the preliminary period we could go out in the courtyard and walk around, and we could run around in the hospital, too. Mostly, I talked to the people that I knew best.
Q: Did you know Karl Mettbach?
A: Yes, that's a relative of mine.
Q: He came from Orsen, didn't he, Orsen?
A: As far as I know, he is from the Rhineland, near Eschwego.
Q: Do you know where he was born?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Did he ever tell you?
A: No.
Q: Did you know Franz Kubik, K u b i k.
A: I remember the name.
Q: Is he a Czechoslovakian gypsy?
A: No, he was not a Czech gypsy. He had a dialect like an Austrian Q.- His records say he was a Czechoslovakian.
Could you be wrong?
A: I didn't see his birth certificate.
Q: Do you know Karl Kraus, K r a u s?
A: No.
Q: Ferdinand Daniel?
A: No.
Q: Karl Hoellenrainer?
A: Hoellenrainer?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes, I know him.
Q: Apparently, you don't know any of their names, do you?
A: I can only remember the names that aren't so difficult and the people I knew for a longer time. I knew Hoellenrainer and Reinhardt —
Q: Did you know any of the others by name?
A: I remember Butschinsky.
Q: Anybody else?
A: Taubmann.
Q: Taubmann? How do you spell that?
A: T a u b m a n n.
Q: After you had asked Professor Beiglboeck to be included, in the experiment so you could stay with your friends in Buchenwald how long did you remain as an experimental subject?
A: I fell sick on the third or fourth day, maybe the fifth day of the preliminary period. I suddenly had a fever.
Q: You got very sick on the third day, didn't you?
A: I don't remember exactly. That's possible.
Q: Then your fever went down on the fourth day. You didn't feel so ill on the fourth day?
A: Yes, the fever went down and I didn't feel so bad but the next day the fever went up again.
Q: The fever actually didn't go up until the seventh day again, did it?
A: And then I was put in Ward 3, Room 2.
Q: Then you never went through the experiment, did you?
A: No, I never drank sea water.
Q: Were you ever in the experimental station at night when the experiments were going on?
A: After the preliminary period?
Q: After the preliminary period.
A: No, then I had to sleep in the hospital.
Q: You don't know whether any of your gypsy friends were tied to their beds, do you, at night?
A: No, I know nothing about that.
Q: You're in no position to know that, were you?
A: But I was there in the daytime and I was not there at night.
Q: Where were you, in the experimental station in the building or out in the yard, when you came to visit in the day time?
A: Sometimes I was in the garden and sometimes I was inside.
Q: Did they keep the doors locked?
A: The doors of the experimental station were often locked.
Q: You told me that you got weighed every day during the preliminary period. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it possible that you only got weighed every other day?
A: No, no, I know exactly that we were weighed every day, always in the morning.
Q: Your records show you were only weighed on the first, third, fifth and seventh days and that you weren't weighed on the second, fourth and sixth day or the eighth day. Now, if Dr. Beiglboeck's records are sufficient —
A: I was sick.
Q: Then you weren't weighed every day, were you?
A: My friends were weighed every day. I saw it.
Q: You told us you were weighed every day. Now, you weren't, were you?
A: As long as I was not sick yet in the preliminary period I was weighed every day.
Q: Then you were not weighed the days you were sick?
A: On the day when I was sick I was not weighed.
Q: You really don't know what days you were weighed, do you?
A: Always in the morning.
Q: Well, on the day that you were sickest, which was the third day, you were Weighed that day and you weighed 50½ kilograms. Is that right? The days that you weren't sick, the second and the fourth and the sixth, you were not weighed. Then you were sick again on the seventh day — considerably high temperature up to 39 — and you were weighed again then and weighed 49.3 kilos; so you actually don't know when you were weighed, do you?
A: I was weighed when I came in to the experiment and I fell sick on about the third day. I don't know exactly when but I was weighed every day and afterwards I got a fever. I can't exactly when,
MR. HARDY: I point out, Your Honor, in document, Beiglboeck Exihibit No. 34, the charts A9, B9 and C9 are the charts pertaining t this witness and they indicate that the witness was only weighed on Chart A9 on the first 'ay of the experiment, the third day of the experiment, the fifth day of the experiment and the seventh day of the experiment. The witness also testified in direct that he had urinalysis each day and there is no record of that here.
Q: Now, you say that any deaths were absolutely out of question in the sea water experiments?
A: I saw all my comrades after the experiment.
Q: Somebody could have died after you left Dachau without your knowing about it. Is that possible?
A: That's possible. I don't know. I wasn't there any more.
Q: How many men were unable to walk at the completion of the experiments?
A: They could all walk. They were all sent back to the blocks.
Q: Are you certain of that?
A: Yes.
Q: Other witnesses tell us that some of them couldn't walk. You don't agree with them?
A: No.
Q: You saw all 44 subjects, saw each one of them yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't see any of them being carried out on stretchers to the hospital barracks for treatment?
A: No. Maybe afterwards when I wasn't in Dachau any more. I would not know.
Q: You didn't see any of them helping the others go out of the experimental station — that is, one holding, up another simply because they were so sick they couldn't walk by themselves?
A: Well, they were pretty weak, yes, but I never saw that anybody couldn't walk.
Q: Did some of these gypsies return to work immediately after the experiments were completed?
A: When they were sent back from the experimental station to the blocks, I was in the camp only two or three days then I left. I don't know anything about it. But during the two or three days when I was in the camp, nobody had to work.
Q: Do you know whether or not Laubinger went directly to work!
A: Laubinger was in my block. He was sent to Block 22. I gave him some bread there.
Q: Why didn't he go to the hospital?
A: Why should he go to the hospital, he wasn't sick.
Q: He was very weak, wasn't he?
A: Yes, but not so weak that he had to go to the hospital.
Q: He was afraid to go to the hospital? He actually was afraid to o to the hospital, was he not?
A: No. The hospital in Dachau was very good. The treatment was very good. He didn't have to be afraid. I myself had been in the hospital. I was treated very well.
Q: you really don't know what his attitude was, do you, you didn't talk to him about it?
A: No.
Q: What group was he in in the experiments?
A: As far as I remember, he was in the same group as I was. He was in the bed next to me.
Q: What did he drink?
A: I am not sure what he drank. He only told me that he had to drink sea water. He was given dextrose and something called Scho-ka-Kola.
Q: Did he get sick?
A: Yes. When we left Auschwitz he had a carbuncle on his eye; aid then in the preliminary period, he had some kind of an inflammation of the eye all the time.
Q: Do you know when Dr. Beiglboeck left Dachau?
A: No.
Q: How often was Dr. Beiglboeck at the experimental station?
A: He was there all day. He just went away to eat. He wasn't there at night, but the nurses were there at night and some French medical students who were on night duty.
Q: What time did Dr. Beiglboeck leave in the evening?
A: That varied. Sometimes after the evening roll call, sometimes at seven o'clock. That varied.
Q: But he was never there during the late hours of the evening?
A: I don't remember. After the roll call I had to go back to the hospital. I had to go to bed.
Q: Now, in summation, witness, you stated that each experimental subject volunteered for the experiment, is that correct?
A: Yes. We all said that we were willing.
Q: You are certain of that?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever testified as a witness before a court before?
A: On this subject, you mean?
Q: On any subject.
A: No, I have never been a witness.
Q: Do you know the significance of an oath?
A: Yes.
Q: You swear that you are telling the truth here on this stand?
A: Yes.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant Counsel have any redirect examination?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Witness, the gypsies whom you mentioned, where they all able to read and write?
A: No, most of them could not read or write.
Q: Most of them could not read or write. And then before you were put in the concentration camp, were other relatives of yours in the concentration camp?
A: Yes, my whole family. My father and my five brothers and sisters, they all died in Auschwitz.
Q: Then you were the only one still at liberty?
A: Yes, I am the only one of my family.
Q: Where were you working?
A: In a dynamite company in Fuerth. In Stabern near Fuerth.
Q: Then you were arrested and interrogated by the Gestapo. What charges did the Gestapo make?
A: They asked me about the work, and they said that I had been involved in deals with foreigners who worked there; and several times I failed to go to work, I had been convicted once for breach of work contract, and they took me to the police prison here, and five days later I was sent to the concentration camp.
Q: When you met Hollenrainer and Reinhardt, did they tell you that three days after the experiments were finished someone died.
A: No, Hollenrainer and Reinhardt always said nobody died. I asked them especially whether anybody died.
Q: Do you know how the station was dissolved, or did it remain in existence?
A: No, it was dissolved. I can remember some of my comrades helped Professor Beiglboeck to clean up the station.
Q: Did they tell you that anybody died?
A: No, I asked about that. I saw all of them afterwards. The Germans in the camp always asked about it because they were interested.
Q: The Prosecutor asked you about a person named Adler. Is that a German name or a Polish name?
A: Adler is obviously a German name. There are many gypsies named Adler. They are all Germans.
Q: Are Gypsies in the habit of keeping birth certificates and so on with them very carefully?
Do all gypsies always know where they belong?
A: Well, many people don't know when they were born, or where they were born because they were born in a cart on the road; and most of them didn't go to school, they don't know how to read and write. There are very few who know how to read and write.
Q: How about your urine, was it taken daily? You have to tell us about that because apparently something was not entered in the record.
A: We had a urine glass that was a kind of museum, and in the back there was a big table. Every day in the morning, we had to put the urine glasses on the table. During the night it was collected, and we had to put the glass on the table in the morning, and either the nurse or some Frenchman weighed them or something I don't know what he did — he measured it, how much it was. I think he measured the liters.
Q: The urine was collected daily then?
A: Yes, and the stool was collected daily, too. The stool was weighed daily.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
MR. HARDY: I have two more questions, Your Honors.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: How many of these experimental subjects received the sea water by a stomach tube?
A: I know nothing about that.
Q: You actually don't know anything about the experiments as to the technical nature of them, how they were conducted, whether or not punctures were performed, and whether or not any of the inmates received sea. water by a stomach tube?
A: No, I didn't see that.
MR. HARDY: No further questions.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no more questions to be propounded, the witness Mettbach is excused.
THE WITNESS: May I sit in the audience now, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may apply for a pass to the office where the passes are issued, but he will have to get his pass and enter the gallery by that method.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I should like to conclude the Beiglboeck case, and state that the weight chart, which is number 23, which I showed the gentlemen in the course of cross examination because my client has the photostatic copies of all the fever charts; and I would like to prepare a new chart from these original curves which will show exactly the weight variations in each case, when he thought the person drank water, and the water, and the blood. These charts do not show this exactly.
MR. HARDY: This chart that has been draw up, I wonder whether Dr. Steinbauer intends to offer that in evidence.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, I will offer this chart as an exhibit then.
MR. HARDY: Well, I object to the admission of that chart into evidence inasmuch as it was a chart that was draw in this Nurnberg jail by the defendant, based on documents which have been altered. Furthermore, the charts and the books have gone over that thoroughly in the course of the cross examination of the defendant and the direct examination of the expert, Ivy. I see no reason for the charts to be further draw up by the defendant inasmuch as he has amply testified concerning the matter, and I don't think the charts would be accurate that he would draw up at this time. The probative value would be deeply in question, and I object to the admission of such evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: What would be the purpose of this chart? Would it be added to the record which is already before the Tribunal?
DR. STEINBAUER: I don't want to submit this as an exhibit. I want to use it in the trial brief to explain the point of view of the defense to the Tribunal.
The exhibit remains, the fever chart. This is just an explanation.
THE PRESIDENT: In the preparation of his trial brief counsel may include anything which he deems relevant and pertinent which will be of assistance in understanding the record as counsel contends it exists. Of course, everything in the brief must be based upon evidence which is before the Tribunal. Counsel understands that.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I will withdraw this chart which I have offered in evidence as Number 23.
INTERPRETER VON SCHON: Your Honor, there seems to be something wrong with the earphones in the defendants' dock. The technician suggests that we take a recess of a few minutes.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, Dr. Steinbauer is finished with his witness in his case Beiglboeck and the next case coming up will be the defendant Hoven. We could adjourn until 1:30 and with defendant Hoven's case start fresh at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: I would ask the Marshal that during the noon recess he will take up the matter of the consultation between counsel for defendant Hoven and defendant Hoven for security and arrange unobjectionable security. It is the wish of the Tribunal that counsel consults his client Hoven this evening and tomorrow morning if he desires.
In view of the trouble with the transmission system the Court will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)