1947-06-27, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 27 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the Court with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser, who is absent due to illness. The medical certificate will be presented shortly.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court, save the defendant Oberheuser, who is absent on account of illness. The forthcoming medical certificate will be filed when it is received.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, due to some transportation difficulties the witnesses Laubinger and Hoellenrainer were not able to arrive at the Palace of Justice. It is assumed they will arrive in a matter of minutes or perhaps one half to one hour. In the meantime, the Prosecution suggests that Dr. Nelte proceed with the introduction of the supplemental document books in the Handloser case.
THE PRESIDENT: Is counsel for the defendant Handloser ready to proceed with documents on his case, if so, he may proceed.
THE INTERPRETER: The witnesses are here, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Interpreters have just informed the Tribunal that the witnesses have arrived. If they have, we will proceed to hear the testimony of the witnesses.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the witnesses have arrived. At this time, the Prosecution would like to call the witness Josef Laubinger to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Josef Laubinger.
JOSEF LAUBINGER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q: Please raise your right hand and be sworn:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, your full name is Josef Laubinger?
A: Yes.
Q: Your last name is spelled L-A-U-B-I-N-G-E-R?
A: Yes.
Q: Witness, have you ever appeared before a Tribunal as a witness before?
A: No, this is the first time.
Q: I want to instruct you, witness, that in the course of this examination, kindly answer the questions that I put to you and make an attempt to be brief, also make an attempt to fully answer the question. If you have anything you wish to tell the Tribunal, you may do so and inasmuch as this examination is conducted through interpreters, you must pause a moment after you have heard my question before you begin to answer; do you understand me?
A: Yes.
Q: When and where were you born, witness?
A: On 15 June, 1921, in Mitthaupten.
Q: Where did you receive your education; if any?
A: In Minden in Westphalia.
Q: When were you first arrested by the Gestapo?
A: In 1943.
Q: Had you ever been in the custody of the police prior to March of 1943?
A: No.
Q: For what reasons were you arrested by the Gestapo in March of 1943?
A: I was arrested for racial reasons.
Q: That is because you were a Gypsy?
A: Yes.
Q: After your arrest in March 1943, were you placed in prison?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: In Heilbronn.
Q: And were you later transferred from Heilbronn to another prison?
A: To Stuttgart.
Q: And then where did you go?
A: I was taken from Stuttgart on a transport to Auschwitz.
Q: At any time during the course of your incarceration did you go to trial; that is were you tried by the Gestapo?
A: I don't understand your question.
Q: Were you placed before a Court and given an opportunity to be heard prior to the time you were placed in a concentration camp?
A: No.
Q: After you arrived at Auschwitz, how long did you stay there?
A: Not quite a year.
Q: Then you apparently arrived in Auschwitz in the spring of 1943?
A: Yes.
Q: And you stayed there until the spring of 1944?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you were transferred to another concentration camp?
A: Yes, Buchenwald.
Q: And how long did you remain in Buchenwald?
A: Not very long, a few weeks.
Q: And what was your reason for leaving Buchenwald?
A: A transport was made up of 44 men; we were told that these men would do clearing up work in Dachau, and we applied for this voluntarily.
Q: What did you understand this clearing up work to be?
A: I thought damaged houses were to be put in order, etc.
Q: Was it commonly known among the inmates that Dachau would be a better place to be than Buchenwald?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that another reason why you volunteered for the work at Dachau?
A: That is why we volunteered, because things were said to be better there than in Buchenwald.
Q: Now, after your arrival in Dachau, would you kindly tell the Tribunal what happened to you?
A: We spent our first night in the reception block. The next morning we went to the hospital. There we were given a physical examination.
Q: Did you, also receive an X-ray?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what happened?
A: Then we were weighed and our height was measured.
Q: And after your physical examinations, X-rays, etc., were completed, did you leave the hospital?
A: No, we were taken to the room in which we had to stay throughout the experiment.
Q: When did you first learn that you were to be subjected to an experiment?
A: Not very long thereafter, Dr. Beiglboeck turned up and told us that we had to participate in the sea-water experiment. We thereupon answered that we had not come to Dachau in order to participate in any experiment, but to do clearing up work. He responded that the experiment was not bad, no one would die, but we were still very much perturbed because we knew that we could not believe anybody in a concentration camp.
Q: Did you know that the professor in charge of the experiments was named Beiglboeck at that time?
A: No.
Q: Then the name Beiglboeck you have learned since you arrived here in Nuernberg?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think you could possibly identify the professor who performed the experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you arise from your seat, witness, walk over here to the defendants' dock, and carefully look at the defendants and make an attempt to identify the man who conducted the experiments at Dachau? What number is he? Would you kindly tell us in what place he is in the dock?
A: The third one over in the back row.
MR. HARDY: Thank you. I ask, Your Honor, that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Beiglboeck.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness has correctly identified the defendant Beiglboeck.
MR. HARDY: You may sit down, witness.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, would you kindly, now, and slowly tell the Tribunal just what Professor Beiglboeck told you people when he called you together in the one room prior to the time that the experiments started, in your own words?
A: We were lined up and were examined again by the professor. Since I had now found out why we were really there, I asked the professor to excuse me from this experiment because I had already had two stomach operations. He answered that I could participate in this experiment without any misgivings, that it would cause me no ills.
Then we were show our beds. I had bed number seven. The experiment was divided into three parts. The one department was pure sea water. The second section was mixed, but what it was mixed with I don't know, and the third group was distilled water.
I tried all three varieties of water. I drank the first and also the second. You could notice no difference between the first and the second so far as taste was concerned. Also I drank the distilled water, which tasted all right except that it was a little salty.
At first we received military rations. That consisted of zwieback, chocolate, and army food. We ate this for seven or eight days — I can't say exactly. When that was over, we received the water. The professor also asked us, "Do you know at all what thirst is? You will find yourself licking the dust from the floor." The whole experiment lasted four to five weeks.
Q: Now, witness, did the professor ask the experimental persons, that is, your friends who underwent the experiments with you, whether or not they wanted to volunteer for the experiments?
A: No.
Q: And you state that the experimental subjects told the professor that they had volunteered for work and not for medical experiments?
A: That is so.
Q: Then Beiglboeck did not ask anyone for their approval, to your knowledge?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you for your approval?
A: No.
Q: Now, you were placed on a diet, a special diet for a period of seven or eight days, you think?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have to work during that time?
A: No.
Q: Then you were to drink sea water. Do you know whether or not the water you were drinking was specially treated?
A: Yes, this was the second sort that had been mixed with something.
Q: Can you state how much you received of this water during one day?
A: In the morning, noon, and night we received a glassful, but how much there was in each glass I can't tell you. It was about the size of a beer glass.
Q: What effect did the drinking of this water have on you?
A: It tasted very salty. After drinking it one became thirsty and tired.
Q: Did you feel very sick?
A: We got so weak that we could hardly stand up.
Q: Did you have a fever at all?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever become so weak that you were unable to walk?
A: Well, I could stand up, but I had to hold on to something. Otherwise I would have fallen down.
Q: How long were you subjected to drinking this particular water?
A: For eleven or twelve days we drank this water.
Q: Well, did you yourself drink it for eleven or twelve or a less number of days, or can you remember specifically?
A: It was about eleven or twelve days.
Q: Well now, did you ever at any time receive a liver puncture?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember when you received that?
A: After the experiment, that is, when the experiments were over.
Q: Did you also receive a lumbar puncture?
A: I don't know what that word means.
Q: Well, that would be a puncture in your back?
A: Yes.
Q: And you received that also at the completion of the experiments, you think?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever receive any injections?
A: No.
Q: After the experiment was over, did you have to stay in the room until all the rest of the experiments were completed?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you examined after the completion of the experiments?
A: No.
Q: Were you weighed after the completion of the experiments?
A: During the experiments we were weighed every day.
Q: Well, after you had completed the experiment and then were allowed to go back to normal life, that is, to eat again and drink again, were you ever weighed after that?
A: No.
Q: Did you receive special food for three or four days after the experiment?
A: No, one day.
Q: Did you get the military food then?
A: Yes.
Q: And then after that did you go back to the usual camp diet?
A: Yes. Mr. Beiglboeck promised us that when the experiment was over we should receive extra rations so that we could recover to what we had been, and we would also get an easy work assignment that we could readily stand, but when the experiment was over Beiglboeck didn't concern himself with us at all after that. We never even saw him again.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, what was that regular camp diet? The Tribunal would be interested in knowing.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Would you kindly answer the Tribunal's question, witness, the regular camp diet? That is not to be confused with the military diet, but the camp diet. Would you tell the Tribunal of what that consisted, please?
A: Mostly it consisted of turnips.
Q: Did you get anything else besides turnips?
A: We had a bread ration, eight men to a loaf. Sundays we got a little butter maybe or jam.
Q: Did you get anything to drink?
A: Yes, coffee or tea.
Q: Anything else? Did you get any cake or anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Any meat?
A: Sundays there was a special meal that contained noodles and there were a few little chunks of meat in there with fresh vegetables.
Q: Well now, after the discontinuation of the experiments you say you did not see Beiglboeck at all after that, that is, after you started eating the regular camp diet again?
A: After that I didn't see him.
Q: Did you eat the regular camp diet while you were still in the experimental station?
A: Yes.
Q: And was Beiglboeck still there, to your knowledge?
A: Yes, he was still there but we never saw him.
Q: Well now, after the experiments were completed, that is, the entire experimental program had been completed, did you then go to the hospital for rest?
A: No. Here is the way it was. Beiglboeck said that whoever felt weak would have a chance to convalesce in the hospital. A friend of mine told me that those who went to the hospital for convalescence would never come out again. I asked how come. He said they would get injections and would die. Of course, hearing this I declined to enter the hospital. I said I was quite strong enough to work.
Q: And did you then go to work?
A: Yes, I went to the block and stayed there only two days, and then I went on a work detail.
Q: Well, did you ever feel sick while you were working?
A: Yes, I felt ill, and if the work Capo hadn't been kind to me, I probably wouldn't be here today.
Q: Now, witness, in the experiments you state that Professor Beiglboeck did not ask you to volunteer. Now, did he promise you that you would be released after the experiments?
A: Yes, so far as members of the armed forces were concerned. For example, if I had a relative outside who had served in the army or if I had previously done service, then there would be the possibility of my release. Regarding not only myself but several other comrades of mine, it was ascertained that we either had relatives serving in the armed forces or had ourselves previously served. We all had to go to the courtyard. Beiglboeck was there with several other men. He went down the line and asked everyone whose relatives were in the army and wrote down the names, but nothing came of all this.
Q: Did anyone of the inmates attempt to rebel before the experiments started and try to influence the experimental subjects not to drink the water?
A: Yes, there was somebody there whose name I don't remember. He said that if we drank the sea water we certainly wouldn't survive, and he said we should all get together and refuse to drink the water. Beiglboeck heard about this and of course he threatened this person, saying that this was sabotage and telling the man that he knew very well what happened to saboteurs.
Q: Did Beiglboeck tell the man that something drastic would happen to him?
A: He told him he would be hanged if he didn't stop this sort of propaganda.
Q: Well, this particular man who wanted to object and organize a rebellion, did he receive the sea water later?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: In what manner was sea water administered to him?
A: The first two or three times he drank the water, but then, thereafter, every time he drank the water he had to vomit. Then Beiglboeck came with a rubber tube and the water was forcibly poured into this fellow, not the same amount that we were receiving, but an even greater amount. If I am not wrong, it was even as much as two or three liters.
Q: Did Beiglboeck administer this himself to that particular fellow?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Can you tell the Tribunal whether or not any of the experimental subjects were ever tied to their beds in any manner whatsoever. If so, kindly tell the situation to the Tribunal as briefly as possible and in your own words.
A: There was somebody there who ran about and who did drink water other than the sea water. Beiglboeck investigated and found out that this man had drunk fresh water and had also eaten bread. This fellow finally admitted this, and then Beiglboeck went and tied this fellow to his bed and sealed his mouth with adhesive tape.
Q: Did you see this fellow with his mouth sealed with adhesive tape?
A: Yes, I knew him, but at the moment I don't remember his name.
Q: But you positively saw a man in the hospital or in the experimental station with his mouth sealed with adhesive tape?
A: Yes, that was the next bed to mine but one.
Q: Generally, did Beiglboeck mistreat the prisoners? Did he swear at them or punch them or do anything of a violent nature?
A: No, he wasn't brutal toward us, but his penalties consisted in giving us more sea water to drink or depriving us of other privileges. For example, he withdrew our cigarettes and things like that.
Q: Were any of the prisoners used of nationality other than German? In other words, were there any Poles or Russians or Czechoslovakians?
A: Yes, there were in toto seven or eight Germans, and the rest were all Russians and Poles and Czechs, people of every nationality.
Q: Do you remember whether any of the inmates used in the experiment had to be transferred to the hospital or the sick bay before the completion of the experiments?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Did the inmates have to stay in the experimental room all the time, or could they go out into the courtyard?
A: We could go into the courtyard next door under guard. Half an hour or an hour later we had to go back.
Q: Did any of the subjects used ever become delirious, froth at the mouth, become mad, show any other symptoms of that nature?
A: Yes, quite a few had these attacks. They rolled around on their beds and yelled like little children. Then they got foam at the mouth. Then the professor was called and he took the liver and spinal punctures. After this was over the person in question was given some liquid intravenously, but what that liquid was I don't know.
Q: Do you know from your own knowledge whether or not any of the experimental subjects suffered permanent injury?
A: Yes, I know two. I, for example, still have spells of dizziness, and when I spoke with Hoellenreiter he told me that he still had these spells too.
Q: Can you tell me whether or not any of the experimental subjects died, to your knowledge?
A: So far as I can remember, no, but two were taken on stretchers to the hospital, and these we never saw again. What happened to them, however, I cannot tell you.
Q: Witness, when you first were transferred to the experimental room and you told Professor Beiglboeck that you had had two stomach operations and did not wish to undergo the experiments, why didn't you press the issue further and refuse to be subjected to the experiments?
A: I would have been very glad to do that, but we prisoners didn't have any freedom of action in the camp. We simply had to obey and if we did refuse, we received the penalty for it.
Q: Then you were afraid to refuse?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this opinion frequently expressed among other experimental subjects?
A: Yes, all of them.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for defendant Beiglboeck may cross-examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Beiglboeck):
Q: Witness, in what district and what province were you born?
A: I was born in the Baden district?
Q: What is your father's name?
A: Josef Laubinger.
Q: What was your mother's maiden name?
A: Weiss.
Q: What were your grandparents' names?
A: Laubinger.
Q: Yes, of course, but I mean first and last names.
A: My grandmother's name was Alvina Laubinger.
Q: Were you yourself in the army?
A: No.
Q: Were you in the Labor Service?
A: No.
Q: Were you in Auschwitz in Block 20?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember what group you belonged to in the experiments?
A: Group 2.
Q: Wasn't the name of that Schaefer Group?
A: I didn't know that expression.
Q: What was your experimental number?
A: Seven.
Q: When Professor Beiglboeck gave you a physical examination, did he ascertain that you had had this stomach operation?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he ask you whether it still bothered you?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you not, for that reason, refused for the experiment?
A: No.
Q: Don't forget that you are under oath, witness. Isn't it more true to say that you really begged him to let you participated in the experiment?
A: No, it is not.
Q: After the experiment actually began, what did you get to eat?
A: The experiment proper?
Q: Yes, that's what I mean.
A: Nothing at all.
Q: Now, you are excited, Mr. Laubinger. Just relax and think about this. Didn't you receive the so-called emergency rations, cookies, chocolate?
A: That was before the experiment.
Q: No, before the experiment you got good food, jelly and butter and milk and so on.
A: Yes, that is so.
Q: Yes, that's what I wanted to clear up. And then, during the actual experiment you received cookies, coca cola, and chocolate?
A: No, no coca cola. Cookies and chocolate is what we got.
Q: For how many days did you get that food?
A: Three days.
Q: Couldn't it have been four days?
A: No.
Q: How do you know that for sure, if I can prove to you that it was four days?
A: Well, just because I know that it was three days.
Q: Is it possible that it was four days?
A: Well, it is possible.
Q: Thank you. This food that you got, was it very salty or free of salt?
A: It was free of salt.
Q: That's right, it was free of salt. Then when the Professor made visits, did he visit you and ask you how your stomach was doing?
A: He every day visited in the morning and asked us how we felt, whether we were thirsty or matters of that sort — that's so.
Q: So he also visited you and asked you how you were feeling?
A: Yes, of course.
Q: I see. You were visited every morning. How many kilos did you lose?
A: That I cannot tell you.
Q: Do you happen to remember how much you weighed then?
A: No, I don't.
Q: But you were a strong healthy man.
A: No, on the contrary — we were weakened because of what we had gone through previously in the concentration camp. Then, after not eating during the experiment you can imagine what we looked like.
Q: Now, Mr. Laubinger, I have a picture of you here. You look very sturdy indeed. Let me show you this picture and tell me who the first three are?
A: I am the third one in the top row.
Q: Who are the others before you?
A: That is — I can't remember the name.
Q: Well, you must know his name. You were all together there.
A: No, I wasn't with him during the last days.
Q: The first man you were talking about?
A: Yes, he was with me.
Q: Yes, you say you were together. And who is the second man?
A: That was a Swiss fellow.
Q: A Swiss fellow? That's wonderful. And the third one is you?
A: Yes.
Q: Does it seem to you that you look very weak there?
A: Well, this picture was taken before the experiments.
Q: Before you got the good food?
A: Yes.
Q: May I ask that the Tribunal also look at the picture — he is the third man.
Could it be, witness, that you weighed 60 or 61 kilos at that time?
A: No, that could never be. I did not weigh that much.
Q: But if in the weight charts your weight at entry is put down as 60.5, would you say the Frenchman made a mistake?
A: Well, I don't know. Anyway I wasn't that heavy.
Q: How much do you think you did weigh?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: How many days were you in the experiment?
A: Just drinking sea water we were in it for 11 or 12 days.
Q: Yes, that is so. Did you lose weight steadily?
A: Everyday, yes.
Q: And how long did you lose weight every day?
A: As long as we drank seawater.
Q: And that you drank for 12 days?
A: Yes, 11 or 12 days.
Q: Yes, that is so. And you lost weight consistently?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, I will have to tell you that we have a very complete record on you here. For the four days of sea emergency ration you lost l/2 kilo in total. And, on the average you lost 1 kilo a day. Can that be so?
A: I cannot tell you.
Q: Good, but you were weighed every day, you said?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you stayed another 8 days in the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, in those 8 days you got nothing to eat at all?
A: Nothing at all. That's right.
Q: Can you say this under oath? Please think about this very carefully, Mr. Laubinger.
A: You mean during the seawater?
Q: Yes. We know what we are talking about — for four days you received sea emergency rations — coca cola —
A: Coca Cola? We didn't get coca cola.
Q: All right, chocolate, cookies.
A: For four days.
Q: And then for 8 days you got no food at all, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: You simply got water to drink?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you explain the fact that in these 8 days when you got nothing to eat — and everyone is going to lose weight if he doesn't cat for a week — how do you explain the fact that during that time you lost only 1½ kilos, 3 pounds — in all that time — in 8 days of fasting, didn't you get something to eat?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Didn't the Professor allow you to eat porridge?
A: No.
Q: Then, you are trying to tell this Tribunal that you fasted for 8 days and only lost 3 pounds?
A: How much I lost I don't know, but I can say that during that time I was given nothing to eat, no bread, no porridge, no nothing.
Q: I must tell you that the Professor allowed you to eat a little.
A: No, that is not so.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I must object to defense counsel arguing with the witness. The witness has testified directly that he was given nothing to eat. I see no cause for argument between defense counsel and the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, objection will be overruled, but do not frame your questions to the witness in an argumentative manner. Just ask him direct questions.
Q: How do you explain the fact that your comrades who fasted at the same time you were fasting lost 7-8 kilos, and you lost only 1½?
A: That cannot be.
Q: What can't be?
A: That my comrades lost so much and I lost almost nothing, as you were saying. I went through exactly the same thing that my comrades went through.
Q: So, you insist that you got nothing to eat?
A: Yes.
Q: In these 12 days you lost first 4 kilos and then 1 kilo and a few grans — let's say in total you lost 6 kilos.
A: Well, as I said, I can't tell you how much I lost.
Q: But can it be — on 2 September you left the experiment that on 12 September you had reached the weight that you had when you entered the experiment?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is it possible?
A: No, in view of the food we were getting it is not possible.
Q: How many gypsies were there in Buchenwald when the people were asked to volunteer for Dachau?
A: I can't tell you the exact number, but there were some thousands.
Q: And of this number the 40 volunteered?
A: Yes. More would have volunteered if they had been wanted, but they were refused.
Q: Then do you remember that when you first met the Professor he made Herzberg the trustee?
A: No, I don't remember that.
Q: Do you know Herzberg?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it true that if anything came up the Professor always negotiated with Herzberg?
A: He spoke to him now and then, but what they talked about or whether they negotiated I cannot tell you.
Q: Now, when you were getting this very good food before the sea emergency rations, did you, as a person with having stomach trouble, easily digest this food?
A: Well, I had some trouble, but I was glad to get the food.
Q: In other words, you liked it?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How about your previous convictions? How many have you had?
A: None at all.
Q: None at all?
A: None at all.
Q: Do you have a good reputation in your home town?
A: Nobody can say anything against me. Of course, I have a bad reputation because I had a child by a German woman, and under Hitler that was not permitted.
Q: No, I am not talking about the old Hitler period. I am talking about now?
A: Right now?
Q: Since 1945.
A: Nobody can say anything against me.
Q: You said that you were in Block 20 in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, that was the hospital block. I was a guard at the door.
Q: Weren't you the Capo there or the room senior (Stubenaltester)?
A: No.
Q: Now think about this carefully?
A: I am.
Q: Did you carry the food?
A: Yes, I did that in my free time. Sometimes I helped the man who distributed the food.
Q: Didn't you take a little bit of this food from your comrades and give it to your mistress, or for yourself and have it cooked?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you make water available to the gypsies in the morning for them to wash themselves as a foreman in Auschwitz?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you hit an old gypsy woman in the face so that she fell down?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you hit the little gypsy children in Auschwitz so hard that they fell down?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you make them do knee-bends until they fell down?
A: No, they did not fall down. There were three children there who were so bad that their mother asked me for help. She had no husband or anything. I put them on top of the stove, which was not lit, of course, but it was like a long bench. They stood up there and did knee-bends. That was the punishment.
Q: Now, in other words, you are saying what I just said was an exaggeration?
A: I certainly am.
Q: How much did you ask from the concentration camp fund as compensation for what you have gone through?
A: What fund are you talking about?
Q: The fund in Stuttgart.
A: Oh, yes, 3,000 or 3,500 Marks.
Q: You are sure it wasn't 30,000 Marks?
A: It certainly wasn't.
Q: What much compensation do you really want to ask for — for the seawater experiments?
A: That was no compensation for the sea-water experiments, but simply to get me back on my feet. I am a showman by profession, and I wanted to have a wagon built — it's being built now — but I did not have the money for it.
So of course I turned to the concentration camp fund in Stuttgart for this assistance.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I do not see the materiality of the rehabilitation of this witness after he got out of the concentration camp; I don't see that is an issue in this case.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may proceed.
Q: Herr Laubinger, the former concentration camp inmate, Pillwein, the former concentration camp inmate Vorlicek, who was brought here as a witness by the Prosecution, the doctor Dr. Lesse, the anti-Nazi soldier Massion, and a gypsy who was also in a concentration camp all five of these have stated, under oath, that Professor Beiglboeck treated the gypsies well. Do you want to say that all five of these men, including the member of your own race who lost everything, are liars?
MR. HARDY: Just a moment, Your Honor. If the Defense counsel wishes to quote the testimony of Pillwein, Vorlicek, and other witnesses, I wish he would do it correctly. As I recall, Vorlicek, in answer to my questions, did not say that Beiglboeck conducted himself in an orderly manner at all times. This is deceiving the witness in his testimony. I wish he would correctly quote the other witnesses before this Tribunal.
DR. STEINBAUER: I just happen to have the record here; Vorlicek, page 9509.
Question: How did Beiglboeck treat the people who were not in the experiment?
Answer: Well.
More is not being asserted by me.
Q: Well, witness, did the professor treat those people well or poorly?
A: From the humane point of view he never did us any harm, but he did carry out the experiments in an orderly way and penalized anyone who refused or caused any delay.
Q: Did you know Eduard Bamberger?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, you were together with him here. He must have told you where he lived.
No, he did not.
Q: Isn't he a decent chap?
A: All I know about Bamberger is what I found out about him in those 11 or 12 days in that experiment. I did not know him before that.
Q: Was he in Buchenwald or Dachau?
A: He was in Dachau. He came to the experiments only because he had been promised that if he participated in the experiments — there was another friend of his there by the name of Taubmann, both these chaps had the escape point, and they were told that if they took part in the experiment they would lose that escape point. But what happened to them after this experiment, I cannot tell you.
Q: But they did volunteer, didn't they?
A: Yes, they volunteered.
Q: And what about this adhesive tape that the professor put over the prisoners' mouths? When did he do that?
A: Because the man had drunk water, or eaten, or run around, he was tied to his bed and his mouth was plastered up.
Q: Witness, isn't it possible that this was done at the time a tube was put down the man's throat?
A: No, quite contrary. This friend of mine was not lying very far from me — there was one bed between us; I could see him very clearly. When he got his water the plaster was torn away from his mouth and he was given a tube and the water was given him through that tube.
Q: That is what I wanted to know. Was this a bicycle tube or was it a thin tube?
A: It was a single tube, about an inch in diameter.
Q: Was it put through the mouth or through the nose?
A: Through the mouth.
Q: Did you ever see a tube put down a person's nose?
A: No, I never did.
Q: Is it possible?
A: That might be possible, but I never saw it.
Q: So for eight days in that experiment you got nothing to eat.
A: That was more than eight days.
Q: No, you were in it altogether twelve days; for four days you got emergency rations and then for eight days you fasted.
A: Yes, that's right.
Q: What consequences did you feel from these eight days of fasting?
A: I had attacks of dizziness; then I fall down and don't know what happens after that.
Q: Is it true that a liver puncture was made on you, or are you confusing yourself with your neighbor?
A: No, it was made on me.
Q: Will you please tell us how that was carried out?
A: I had to expose my side and lie down. Then Professor Beiglboeck pulled out a needle, eight inches long or so, and, if I am not mistaken, this needle was in a cover, but I cannot tell you for sure. This needle was pushed between my ribs, and then the needle was pulled out. Then he examined something that had come out with the needle. In some cases it did not come out just right the first time, and he put the needle back in. In some people he put the needle in several times, until he was satisfied with the result.
Q: The professor did this himself?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Do you know who slept in Bed 20?
A: No.
Q: In Beds 43 and 44?
A: I don't know.
Q: Wasn't it your relative, Kiefer? You are related to the Kiefers, aren't you?
A: No, I had no relatives there.
Q: But you know the Kiefers?
A: Yes, I know there was a Kiefer who was with me in the experiment. He was a young fellow.
Q: You said there were only seven or eight Germans?
A: Yes.
Q: Don't you think it really was more than that, if I read you all these German names, from Bavaria alone?
A: All I can tell you is what I remember.
Q: Couldn't it possibly be more?
A: Yes, it is possible.
Q: Weren't there two Mettbachs there?
A: Two Mettbachs? There was a Schweizer — yes, his name was Mettbach.
Q: Well, Furth, let me tell you, is in Bavaria. Schmidt?
A: Yes, I remember Schmidt.
Q: Franz?
A: I can't remember him.
Q: Adler?
A: Yes, I remember him.
Q: Was he a German or a Hungarian?
A: I don't know.
Q: Hoellenrainer?
A: Yes.
Q: Bernhard?
A: Yes.
Q: Herzberg?
A: Yes.
Q: Bamberger?
A: Yes.
Q: Hermann?
A: I don't know him.
Q: Taubmann?
A: Yes, I remember him.
Q: Now, there, look at this. How about Reinhardt?
A: Yes.
Q: Weren't there even a couple of Reinhardts in there?
A: I only know one.
Q: Now, there, look at that. We already have more than seven Germans. Don't you grant the possibility that there were more?
A: Yes, of course I do.
Q: Were there Slovaks in the experiment?
A: Slovenians, yes, but who they were and how, many, I do not know.
Q: Were there Burgenlaender?
A: No.
Q: Remember a little fellow named Papai?
A: Yes.
Q: He was from Burgenland, wasn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell me the name of the fellow who was force-fed?
A: No.
Q: But you say he was only two beds away from you?
A: Nevertheless I do not know his name. I have thought about this frequently.
Q: You were in Bed 7?
A: Yes.
Q: Could his name have been Patschowsky?
A: I don't know.
Q: Then the next man was Mettbach.
A: No, it was not Mettbach.
Q: Then you don't know what his name was?
A: No.
Q: Did the Professor pass out very many cigarettes during the experiment?
A: Sometimes we got two, sometimes three; there were some among us who were very good, and they got an extra ration of cigarettes.
Q: How long did the experiment last altogether, do you know that?
A: I can only tell you approximately — four to five weeks, I should say.
Q: Can it be true that on the 12th of September it was finished?
A: I can't tell you the exact date.
Q: Did the gypsies help the professor to clear out the experimental station?
A: No.
Q: Did you come to Block 22?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you meet Mettbach there?
A: Yes.
Q: He said here, as a witness, that he had given you a loaf of broad?
A: I don't know about that.
Q: Did you meet other comrades there?
A: Well, we were in Block 22, but we were in different rooms, one, two, and three, so we met now and again, that is so.
Q: If anyone had died, then you would have found out about it, since you gypsies stick together?
A: No, it was not possible, because about two days after that I was put to work.
Q: There were you sent to?
A: I stayed in Dachau.
Q: You stayed in the camp?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Ah, that is very important. You just went out to work during the day?
A: I was employed there in the equipment office, and while I was working there I did not have a chance to talk to anyone. After I was finished work, I was glad to have a chance to rest.
Q: Don't you think that if anyone had died you would immediately have been told about it, that was usual in the camp; was it not?
A: Well, my comrades were really too dumb to do that.
Q: Well, you would not say that Mettbach was dumb, would you?
A: They were too afraid they would be sent to the hospital or something would happen to them if they told what actually happened to them or things of that sort.
Q: But you do not exclude the possibility that you could have heard of such a death if one occurred?
A: That is possible, but I heard nothing about it.
Q: At any rate, you heard nothing about a death?
A: No, I only know that two were carried to the hospital on stretchers and I saw nothing after that.
Q: When was it that they were taken out?
A: That was during the experiment.
Q: Now, before you answer, please think is it not possible that one of these men was taken away at the very beginning of the experiment?
A: No, that is not possible.
Q: Then, I must tell you that Mettbach said that he was taken away on the first day.
A: That cannot be so, Mettbach went through the whole experiment.
Q: Now perhaps you are mixing up the two Mettbachs. I am referring to the younger Mettbach.
A: I don't know any young Mettbach at all, all I know is the older Mettbach, he was a Schweizer and was with me in the experiment.
THE PRESIDENT: The secretary will file the certificate of Dr. Roy A. Martin, Captain, Medical Corps, stating that the defendant Oberheuser will not be able to be in court today on account of illness.
Just a moment, counsel.
During the recess which the Tribunal is about to take, the witness will be kept in the custody of the Marshal and will not be allowed to talk to anyone.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, may I make a correction?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go ahead.
THE INTERPRETER: When this witness has been using the word "Schweizer", he is not referring to the nationality Swiss, but to the German word "Schweizer", meaning a dairyman.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the record will show the correction. The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)