1947-06-27, #2: Doctors' Trial (mid morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
JOSEF LAUBINGER — Resumed
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Witness, will you please be kind enough to give me your home address and your exact present residence?
A: It is Heilbronn on the Neckar, Jaegerhausstrasse, formerly the RAD camp.
Q: And this is where you are living now?
A: Yes.
Q: In order not to misunderstand one another, during the experiment you drank no sea water, only water which had the salt removed?
A: No, this water also contained salt. It was the second type.
Q: But you don't know that it was called Schaefer water?
A: No, I don't know that.
Q: But at any rate, it was not sea water?
A: Yes, it was sea water, but not as much salt content as the other.
Q: Don't you know the names of the two persons who allegedly went to the hospital?
A: No, I don't know their names.
Q: You went through the hell of Auschwitz?
A: Yes.
Q: After the experiment, you went into the quartermaster's office, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, if you compare these two concentration camp experiences, don't you think that the quartermaster's office was a comparatively good detail?
A: No, on the contrary. I had to do hard work there. I had to transport rifles and machine parts, and we had to do whatever work there was there.
Q: Didn't you have to deal with the so-called property room there?
A: No.
Q: Is it correct that you actually experienced a liver puncture performed on you?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, where is the scar?
A: The scar is no longer visible.
Q: Don't you have a little white circle on your dark skin. I am sure that you could see if there was a liver puncture there.
A: No, I can't see anything.
Q: Would you agree to be given a medical examination to see whether you have such a scar?
A: Certainly.
DR. STEINBAUER: In that case, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions on the part of counsel for the defendant Schroeder or Becker-Freyseng? Does the prosecution have any redirect examination?
MR. HARDY: The prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused from the witness stand.
(Witness excused.)
MR. HARDY: At this time the prosecution would like to call Karl Hoellenrainer to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness Karl Hoellenrainer to the stand.
KARL HOELLENRAINER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SEBRING: Hold up your right hand and be sworn:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, your name is Karl Hoellenrainer?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you spell your last name, please? Did you hear me, witness? Spell your last name.
A: Yes.
Q: Would you spell your last name, please?
A: Yes. H-o-e-l-l-e-n-r-a-i-n-e-r.
Q: When and where were you born, witness?
A: I was born in Fuerth, in Bavaria.
Q: What year, what is the date of your birth?
A: I was born on the 9th of March, 1914.
Q: Prior to the time that you were arrested by the Gestapo, were you ever sentenced or arrested by the police?
A: No, I was arrested on the 29th of May, 1944, by the Gestapo. I was sent to Auschwitz from Nuernberg.
Q: Witness, just a moment, please. Have you ever appeared as a witness before any Tribunal before this time?
A: No.
Q: Now, in the course of this examination, witness, I want you to attempt to be brief, yet tell the Tribunal the story of what happened to you, and also try to answer my questions specifically; and due to the fact that I am asking you questions in English and you are answering in German, it is necessary for you to pause a moment after you have heard my question so that it will be properly translated to you before you answer. Now, witness, for what reasons were you arrested by the Gestapo on the 29th of May, 1944?
A: Because I am a gypsy of mixed blood.
Q: And after your arrest you were sent to the Auschwitz concentration camp?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did you remain in Auschwitz?
A: About four weeks.
Q: And then where were you placed?
A: I was sent to Buchenwald.
Q: How long did you stay in Buchenwald?
A: I only stayed there for a few days.
Q: And then what happened to you?
A: I was in a tent camp in Buchenwald, and suddenly our numbers were called up, 40 men were called, including me, and we were told that we would have to leave for Dachau in order to work there. As soon as we arrived at Dachau we were put in a quarantine block, and one day an SS man came and wrote down our numbers, and they sent us to the surgical department of a certain doctor of the Luftwaffe. I am afraid I no longer remember that physician's name. I know that he came from the Luftwaffe and that he was an Austrian. He examined all of us, and then we were divided into groups for a seawater experiments
Q: Just a moment, witness. I now want to ask you some brief questions concerning what you have just told us. You state that you went to Dachau to work. Did you consider going to Dachau to be good fortune?
A: Yes; a friend of mine, a gypsy, had already been to Dachau, and he told me that the situation was much better and that we would get better food. But that was not the case.
Q: Well, did you understand what you were to do when you went to Dachau, what type of work was it, bomb disposal or removal?
A: Yes, we went there to work.
Q: Did you understand that you were going to Dachau to volunteer for seawater experiments?
A: No, never.
Q: Now, upon arrival in Dachau you then went to the quarantine block, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You stayed there for a day or two and were given physical examinations?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you also get an X-ray examination?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you were transferred to the experimental block?
A: Yes.
Q: And there you met a professor, or a doctor?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think you would be able to recognize that doctor if you saw him today?
A: Immediately, yes. Yes, I would immediately recognize him.
Q: Would you kindly stand up from your witness chair, take your earphones off, and proceed over to the defendants' dock, and see if you can recognize the professor that you met at Dachau?
(Witness leaves the stand.)
Q: Walk right over, please.
(Witness attempts assault on the defendant Beiglboeck.)
MR. HARDY: The prosecution apologizes for the conduct of the witness, Your Honors. Due to the manner of this examination, the prosecution will have no further questions, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will keep the witness guarded before the Tribunal.
DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Beiglboeck): I have no questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Marshal bring the witness before the bar of this Court? Will an interpreter come up here who can translate to the witness?
Witness, you were summoned before this Tribunal as a witness to give evidence.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a court of justice.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And by your conduct in attempting to assault the defendant Beiglboeck in the dock, you have committed a contempt of this Court.
THE WITNESS: Your Honors, please excuse my conduct. I am very excited.
THE PRESIDENT: Ask the witness if he has anything else to say in extenuation of his conduct.
THE WITNESS: I am very excited and that man is a murderer. He ruined me for my entire life.
THE PRESIDENT: Your statements afford no extenuation of your conduct. You have committed a contempt in the presence of the Court, and it is the judgment of this Tribunal that you be confined in the Nuernberg prison for the period of 90 days as punishment for the contempt which you have exhibited before this Tribunal.
THE WITNESS: Would the Tribunal please forgive me. I am married and I have a little son. And this man is a murderer. He gave me salt water and he performed a liver puncture on me. Please do not confine me to prison.
THE PRESIDENT: That is no extenuation. The contempt before this Court must be punished. People must understand that a Court is not to be treated in that manner. Will the Marshal call a guard and remove the prisoner to serve the sentence which this Court has inflicted for contempt? It is understood that the defendant is not to be confined at labor. He is simply to be confined in the prison, having committed a contempt in open court by attempting to assault one of the defendants in the dock.
MR. HARDY: At this time, Your Honor, the Prosecution will request a brief recess, if Your Honors please.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess for a moment.
(A recess was taken.)