1947-06-05, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 5 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in Court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in Court with the exception of the defendant Gebhardt, absent because of illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of the defendants in Court, save the defendant Gebhardt, who will be excused from attendance today pursuant to certificate of the Captain of the Medical Department in charge of the prisoners, as to the illness of defendant Gebhardt. The Secretary General will file the certificate for the record.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Hoven): With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call the witness Paul Friederich Dorn to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please repeat? I did not have the earphones on.
DR. GAWLIK: With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call the witness Paul Friedrich Dorn to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Pursuant to agreement between counsel approved by the Tribunal, the Marshal will call the witness Paul Friedrich Dorn a witness for defendant Hoven.
The Tribunal will take under advisement for further consideration the motion made by counsel for defendant Schaefer to dismiss the charges against him. Ruling on that motion will be passed until the conclusion of the testimony, at least.
PAUL FRIEDRICH DORN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please. Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated. Counsel may proceed to examine the witness.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: Witness, your name is Paul Friedrich Dorn, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: The 16th of February 1916, in Winzheim.
Q: You are a German national, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Please, what is your present address?
A: Eschwege, An den Anlagen, 14 a.
Q: What is your present profession?
A: Taxi service and renting of Motor cars.
Q: For what reason were you put into the concentration camp?
A: Before the war I was the proprietor of a small transport business. In 1940 my truck was requisitioned by the German Wehrmacht and I was instructed to work as a workman in an armaments factory.
In August of 1940 I refused to do this work and was arrested by the Gestapo of Leipzig. The judicial proceedings against me for refusing to work were squashed, and I was turned over to the concentration camp of Dachau.
Q: How long were you there?
A: From September 1940 to the 20th of December, 1940.
Q: Where did you go on the 20th of December 1940?
A: To the concentration camp of Buchenwald near Weimar.
Q: What commando were you in in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A: First of all I was employed in the quarry.
Q: How long were you employed there?
A: Until 15 January 1941.
Q: What happened then?
A: Then because I was sick I was sent to the Prisoners Hospital where a necessary gland operation was carried out on me.
Q: And what happened then?
A: For 8 days I was an out-patient and then I went back to the hospital for a second operation.
Q: And what happened after the operation?
A: After the operation I at first received an easier job and was employed in the prisoner's kitchen for light work.
Q: How long were you there?
A: Until March 1941.
Q: Where did you go then?
A: I was put into the prisoner's hospital and since March 1941 I was used there as a clean-up man.
Q: How long did you do this cleaning work?
A: Roughly one year.
Q: What did you do then?
A: I was a male nurse.
Q: How long were you a male nurse?
Q: Until 20 September 1943.
Q: What happened then?
A: After Dr. Hoven was arrested and I lost the support I had had in Buchenwald, I was transferred to Auschwitz.
Q: Then, witness, it is correct that from March of 1941 until 20 September 1943, you were in the prisoner's hospital of the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A: Yes.
Q: During this time who was camp doctor?
A: Until 1942 Dr. Blanke as far as I know and later in 1942 Dr. Hoven was appointed camp doctor.
Q: Do you know when Dr. Hoven was arrested?
A: I know that very well, on 12 September 1943.
Q: Do you you recognize Dr. Hoven among those in the dock?
A: Yes.
Q: Please state which of these persons is the former camp doctor, Dr. Hoven.
A: In the last row, the third man from the left.
Q: Perhaps the witness might be allowed to step forward and point to Dr. Hoven.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may step to the dock and examine the defendants and identify the Defendant Hoven if he can.
THE WITNESS: Very well.
(The witness steps to the dock and points to defendant Hoven.)
THE WITNESS: Here.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness when stepping in front of the defendant's dock has correctly identified the defendant Hoven.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: Then you know very well what the conditions were in the camp hospital in the time during which Dr. Hoven was the camp doctor?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Are Blocks 44 and 49 or Block 46 known to you?
A: Yes.
Q: How is it that you know of them?
A: When Block 46 was being used as an experimental station I was there a few times and had to take drugs and medicine from the main hospital to this block. However, at Block 46 I had no tasks to perform.
Q: What happened in Block 46?
A: I know that typhus experiments were performed there.
Q: Who was the chief of Block 46?
Q: The then Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] Dr. Ding.
Q: What functions did Dr. Hoven perform in Block 46?
A: Dr. Hoven had no medical functions whatsoever at Block 46.
Q: Did the defendant Dr. Hoven carry out any experiments in Block 46?
A: So far as I know Dr. Hoven did not have the right to do that since the experiments were conducted on orders from Berlin and during the first experimental series even SS members were strictly forbidden to enter that Block.
Q: Who did carry out these experiments in Block 46?
A: So far as I know only Dr. Ding.
Q: How do you know that?
A: I had a friend who was a Jewish fellow and a nurse and I talked to him daily about what was going on in Block 46.
Q: Who was this Jewish nurse?
A: I can only remember his family name — Jellineck.
Q: Do you believe that this man is worthy of credence?
A: I knew Jellineck as a very good friend and a very honest person.
Q: What do you know about the experiments that were carried out with lice?
A: I know that at the end of 1942 cages of lice, infected lice, arrived in Buchenwald for the first time. Dr. Hoven conferred with the most important prison nurses of Block 45 and afterwards these lice were destroyed since the danger of epidemic was too great for the whole camp.
Q: What do you know about the second shipment of lice that arrived at Buchenwald?
A: I know that this second shipment was brought to Buchenwald by a higher Wehrmacht officer. In the presence of this Wehrmacht officer these lice were to be put on the prisoners immediately. This would have constituted a great danger not only for the prisoners in the camp, but also for the SS members in the camp. Therefore one was very eager to remove this Wehrmacht officer from Block 46 as quickly as possible. Also this second shipment of lice was destroyed in the presence of the camp doctor.
Q: What do you know about the way in which this Wehrmacht officer was removed from the camp?
A: From a telephone conversation that took place between Block 46 and the prisoner's hospital, I know that Dr. Hoven used a trick and told this officer that if he did not go back to Weimar with the truck that was then made available to him, he would have walk that distance in the evening, since there were no other means of transportation between Weimar and Buchenwald.
Q: Was the experiment discontinued immediately after the Wehrmacht officer left Block 46?
A: Yes, according to what I learn from Jellineck and a nurse from Block B who was accommodated there the lice were destroyed as soon as the Wehrmacht officer had left.
Q: Who was this nurse; what was this nurse's name from Block B Buchenwald whom you just mentioned?
A: I cannot give you his name, as I had very little to do with him.
Q: What do you know about Dr. Hoven's visits in Block 46?
A: I know that Dr. Hoven did not visit Block 46 for medical reasons, but I know very well that Dr. Hoven had set up in this isolated block a tailor shop and a shoe shop and he did so since it was already very difficult at that time to have shoes and uniforms repaired or to get new ones. For this reason Dr. Hoven had this work done illegally at this Block because the patients were accommodated there for this purpose. They were not running the danger of being surprised by any SS officer and punished.
Q: What can you tell the court about the prisoners who were working in these shops?
A: The prisoners who were employed there by Dr. Hoven with the understanding of the illegal camp management, who were hidden here in these shops and they were people who had drawn the attention of the SS camp management in some way and were therefore to be removed from the camp on very poor transports or were to be liquidated.
Q: Was Dr. Hoven interested in the typhus experiments in Block 46?
A: I must honestly state here that I never considered Dr. Hoven to be a good doctor and I did not believe he ever had any medical interest or any interest in experiments.
Q: Who choose the experimental subjects for Block 46?
A: The general instructions for the selection of these persons came from the R.S.H.A. in Berlin. These people were selected from the so-called political department by two Hauptscharfuehrers [chief squad leaders] on special detail, namely Serno and Leclair.
Q: Did Dr. Hoven participate in this selection?
A: Dr. Hoven took part in this selection only when he wished to protect a prisoner known to him from being sent to this block; or, if political prisoners were there who were of great importance to the camp, then in that case the capo of the dispensary appeared before Dr. Hoven and asked that these important persons should not be sent to Block 46 but that they should be replaced by valueless criminal elements.
Q: Did Dr. Hoven work in conjunction with the so-called illegal camp management?
A: I believe Dr. Hoven was the first SS member to whom the illegal camp management dared to come and could dare to take into their full confidence with no fear of being denounced to the camp commander in an instant.
Q: To clarify that point please tell the Tribunal now what the political department was, that selected the prisoners.
A: The political department was a special Kommando [command] within the Kommandantur [headquarters] of the concentration camp. It consisted of Hauptscharfuehrer [Staff Seargent] Serno and the Unter— or Obersturmfuehrer [Lieutenant] Leclair.
Q: Were these members of the Gestapo?
A: Yes, they did not wear the regular SS uniform but had other designations of rank.
Q: I shall now put to you the testimony of Roemhild. This is the transcript of 14 January 1947, morning session, page 1632 of the German record. May my secretary carry the transcript to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q: Please read. The prosecutor addressed the following question to the witness Roemhild:
Did Dr. Hoven participate in the selection of the patients who were subjected to the typhus experiments?
Roemhild answered this question in the affirmative. Further, the witness Roemhild stated:
If an experimental series was in prospect a certain number of prisoners was demanded.
This selection was made on the basis of the card index file that we had in the office.
What do you have to say about that?
A: I should like to answer the second question first. Roemhild is probably referring here to the exchanges that Dr. Hoven frequently made, accepting substitutions he frequently made, because Dr. Hoven did not take part in the actual selection; and now I should like to ask counsel to read that first question to me again.
Q: The first question reads:
Did Dr. Hoven participate in the selection of prisoners who were subjected to the typhus experiments?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Do you know whether the illegal camp management drew up lists for the substitution of political prisoners for inferior prisoners.
A: Of course, all the prisoners employed in the hospital knew when the next experimental series was to begin. The illegal camp management already had ready for substitution all the persons in the camp who had behaved wrongly in some way or who had been guilty of any sort of betrayal or anything of that sort.
Q: Did Dr. Hoven concern himself about these substitutions or did he leave that up to the illegal camp management?
A: In every respect Dr. Hoven was given great confidence by the illegal camp management and vice versa and, in general, paid very little attention to what the illegal camp management did.
Q: You, witness, are referring to the illegal camp management now, are you not? You mean the illegal camp management of the prisoners themselves?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Dr. Hoven carry out the charts of the persons to be used in the Typhus experiments on the explicit wish of the illegal camp management or, rather, did he supervise this selection for that reason?
A: I know of no case in which Dr. Hoven, without the knowledge of the illegal camp management, undertook anything which could do harm to any prisoner and which could lead to his being brought to Block 46.
Q: Did Dr. Hoven take on this supervisory activity in order to prevent persons other than BV's and SV's from being used — namely, professional criminals?
A: The basic orders from Berlin stated that only German professional criminals and persons in preventative custody were to be used for these experiments. However, the SS camp management of the camp always tried to have political prisoners who had been in the camp for a long time also included among these persons to be used in these experiments in block 46 and it was only because of the alertness of Dr. Hoven in collaboration with the illegal camp management that these political prisoners I just mentioned had managed to survive their stay at the camp.
Q: How is it that you know this?
A: I occupied a pretty confidential position at Buchenwald and consequently numbered among my friends the members of the illegal camp management and in this way I found out many things which other inmates could not find out and never did.
Q: Were non-German prisoners used for such experiments?
A: I have already said that the orders from Berlin said that only prisoners, criminals and persons in preventive custody were to be used in these experiments.
Q: I now put to you Document NO-1063. This is the file for the office for the locating of war crimes in Amsterdam. According to page 14 of the German translation, a Dutchman by the name of Von Nenvarden stated that he was infected with typhus by Dr. Hoven. What can you say about that?
A: I never knew of a Dutch citizen being accommodated in Block 46 because in the camp we had a Dutch painter by the name of Harry Pieck who had an enormous influence on Dr. Hoven. This Dutch politician certainly would never have permitted a Dutch comrade of his getting to Block 46. I can, however, state with certainty that a group of 80 Dutch prisoners was given injections that were perfectly harmless in another block of the camp. These men had no work to do, were given double rations and the only regulation they had to submit to was that their temperature was taken three times a day. These injections were entirely harmless. None of these persons could have fallen ill of these injections or could have suffered any physical injury.
Q: Please turn one page back, to page 13 of the Document NO 1063. According to this Vondelink states that Dr. Hoven is responsible for the medical experiments carried out on prisoners in Block 46. I ask you, did Vondelink have the necessary knowledge and information in order to judge who was responsible for the experiments in Block 46?
A: I must say first of all that I do not know this Vondelink. A prisoner who was not employed in the prison camp knew nothing whatsoever of what took place in the prison hospital and in block 46 because the prisoners could enter the camp hospital only with permission of the camp commandant and they could not enter any wards at all. Vondelink probably heard this as a rumor in the camp and repeated that rumor in good faith.
I believe that if I myself had not been employed in the hospital and if I were asked today who was responsible for the conditions there I also probably would have said the camp doctor on duty.
Q: Can you answer the question whether Vondelink was employed in the hospital?
A: He certainly was not employed there. Otherwise I should know him.
Q: Do you know of the action 14-F-13?
A: Yes.
Q: How many transports left the camp under this action 14-F-13?
A: One, namely, at the end of 1941.
Q: Where did it go to?
A: The prisoners and probably also Dr. Hoven did not know what the real destination of this transport was. However, after some time the property and clothing of these prisoners were sent back and this allowed us to conclude that this transport had gone to Bernburg. The prisoners must have been liquidated there, otherwise their personal effects would not have been sent back to Buchenwald, and curiously enough it was at this moment that the numbers 14-F-13 became current among us prisoners.
Q: For what reasons were no further transports sent out within the framework of action 14-F-13?
A: As far as I know all Jewish inmates of the camp were to be removed from the camp in the subsequent transports. The illegal camp management immediately took measures and all the Jews there were thenceforth listed as mason apprentices under the leadership of one Robert Seibert from Dresden, who treated these Jews very well.
Q: Who prevented these further transports?
A: The illegal camp management in collaboration with Dr. Hoven, because the second transport that was set up was declared by Dr. Hoven to be in no condition to move and was thus recalled.
Q: Can you give the Tribunal information regarding further measures that Dr. Hoven took in order to prevent the carrying out of action 14-F-13?
A: I can only say that Dr. Hoven, whenever transports were to leave, always conferred with the illegal camp management and with all the prisoners in the camp who were of any consequence and who occupied any illegal office and approved and brought about the necessary counter measures.
Q: Is it true that the defendant Hoven, only in order to prevent such transports, undertook the so-called anthropological measurements of prisoners?
A: Yes, I know about that, there was an SS Oberarszt [Chief Physician] in the camp who was interested in this sort of measurement, and these measurements were consequently undertaken. If the SS camp management had know that these measurements were really protecting many very interesting Jewish types, anthropologically speaking, then they would have been stopped, because many Jewish patients had been hidden in the camp for years.
Q: Is it correct that the defendant Hoven accommodated in Block 46 and 50, persons who were threatened by the action 14-F-13, particularly Jews?
A: Yes, I am in a position to give you a few names. For example, the Jewish prisoner August Cohn, whom I met recently in Kassel, where he was the Public Prosecutor in the Denazification court; also of the nurse Jellineck, also a prisoner named Kurt Glaeser, and then in Block 50 there was a prisoner named Hoegster. I believe there was quite a number of Jewish prisoners who were removed from the action in this way.
Q: Can you tell the Tribunal how many Jews there were in Buchenwald when you left in September 1943 were still there?
A: Precise figures I cannot give you, of course, but I believe I am not overestimating if I say there were 1800 to 2000.
Q: Did the defendant Dr. Hoven ever examine prisoners intended for transport to Bernburg?
A: No, because these transports were not judged on a medical basis. I know that the first transport that left was arranged for from Berlin and that Leclair simply put his OK on it. These prisoners were not taken to the camp hospital before they were put on the transport.
Q: I now put to you Roemhild's testimony. This is page 1634 of the German transcript. Roemhild said that the two camp doctors, including Dr. Hoven, examined Jews with reference to their ability to work, that lists were drawn up of those who could not work and those were sent to Bernburg. Now, what do you have to say about that?
A: I can only say that there were very frequent examinations on all the Jewish prisoners because the Jewish prisoners received only half the rations that we received. For this reason Berlin, or perhaps the camp commander, was particularly interested to know just what the physical condition of these people on half rations was. But, these examinations had nothing to do with the transports because as it happens for more than a year I had to be present during these examinations, or rather during the assembly of the transports and consequently I was always informed by Dr. Hoven where the transports were going and who was on them.
Q: These examinations with reference to the prisoners' ability to work, were they carried out by the camp doctor?
A: No, usually by inmate nurses.
Q: You spoke of half rations that the Jewish prisoners received. Is it true that the illegal camp management with Dr. Hoven's support illegally supplied these Jews with food contrary to explicit orders?
A: I do know that the Jewish blocks were supported to a very large extent from the camp hospital.
Q: Do you know Roemhild?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: How long have you known him?
A: I have known Roemhild from that moment on when I was employed in the camp hospital.
Q: What did he do there?
A: From 1940 to '43 Roemhild was the so-called treasurer of the camp hospital. That is to say he took care of the prisoners' money there and in 1943 — and this took place very shortly before Dr. Hoven's arrest, Roemhild was used as a clerk for the doctors.
Q: Was Roemhild as hospital treasurer present at examinations?
A: No, never.
Q: Consequently, does Roemhild have the necessary knowledge in order to be able to make statements regarding events of this sort in 1943?
A: No, he does not because before Roemhild was camp hospital treasurer he was for most of the time absent from the hospital in the finance office or at the quartermasters and only at very short intervals he was in the hospital itself.
Q: What do you know about the killing of informers in the camp?
A: I know that in Buchenwald prisoners, who did not obey the rules set up by the illegal camp management and who worked with the SS denouncing other prisoners and thus brought about their deaths, were liquidated by Dr. Hoven in collaboration with the illegal camp management. The case I am speaking of now concerns a former White Russian General by the name of Kustiner Kuschnarev, a racial German by the name of Bulla, and three German professional criminals. These men had human lives on their conscience. Life in the camp was very rugged and the prisoners were very bitter toward these traitors. Consequently, they had to disappear from among the living.
Q: Tell the Tribunal what the illegal camp management's tasks and activities were?
A: The illegal camp management was an institution set up by the prisoners themselves for their own protection. In the course of time it developed to a strong illegal organization which saw to it that measures taken by the SS camp commander were sabotaged in every possible way and the camp was kept free of traitors and informers.
Q: Describe the activities of the informers and traitors on the community in the camp.
A: Let me first take up the case of Kuschnir Kuschnarev, the White Russian General, because that was probably the most prodigious drama of treason that ever took place in Buchenwald. When Kuschnier Kuschnarev was in Buchenwald large numbers of Russian Prisoners of War were turned over to the camp Buchenwald. The assignment that Kuschnarev had from the SS camp commander was to associate with these Russian Prisoners of War and to pump them regarding their opinions and to find out if there were any Red Army officers among them and, if so, to inform the camp commander, also information on all prisoners who worked in connection with these Russian prisoners or who naturally sympathized with the Russian prisoners on the basis of their Communistic past. The prisoners whom Kuschner Kuschnarev denounced were taken by the Oberscharfuehrer [Squad Leader] Beier, Tanfratshofer, Commander of the Laundry Schaefer, Kitchen Chief Schmidt, Serno, Leclair, or either they were shot in the stable or hanged in the crematorium. I can assert here that it was an incredibly large number of persons whose death Kuschnier Kuschnarev caused.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, counsel, the Tribunal is about to take its recess. The witness may complete his story after the recess.
JUDGE TOMS: If the Tribunal will permit me to interrupt just a moment, This is Judge Toms, presiding in Tribunal II. One of the defendants in this case has been authorized as a witness in Case IV now being tried in Tribunal II and, if convenient, I would request that this defendant be excused at this time and the Marshal be directed to conduct him to Tribunal II for the purpose of testifying for the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is the defendant before this Tribunal?
JUDGE TOMS: The witness is Rudolf Brandt.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Robert M. Toms, presiding judge of Tribunal II now in session, having requested that the defendant Rudolf Brandt be excused from attendance before this Tribunal for a short time in order to testify before Tribunal II, the Marshal will see that the defendant Rudolf is conducted to Tribunal II to testify as a witness before that Tribunal, to be returned to this Tribunal when his testimony is finished.
JUDGE TOMS: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minutes.