1947-06-05, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. The Secretary General will note for the record the absence from the Tribunal of defendant Rudolf Brandt who has been excused to testify before Tribunal No. 2 which is now in session. He was excused and his absence from the Tribunal will in no way prejudice his case.
Counsel may proceed.
PAUL FRIEDRICH DORN — Resumed
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
Q: Witness, did the activity of stool pigeons consist particularly of accusing prisoners wrongly?
A: It has happened repeatedly that people because of intrigue by these traitors with the SS Camp administrators were reported and due to this type of treason were severely punished and lost their lives.
Q: Could you tell the Tribunal an example of that type what about the special company of prisoners?
A: In 1942 some criminal prisoners wanted to get the camp administration over to their side and they went to the camp leader and told him that political prisoners in the camp had a radio station and were thus listing to enemy stations. The camp administration reacted immediately and relieved all political prisoners who had influential positions, such as capos and block leaders, and prisoners in the hospital such as vice-capo and many male nurses and they formed a special company. It was the task of this special company to work in the garden, under Sturmfuehrer [Captain] Dombeck and cart soil all day long, and all this work had to be done running.
Q: Did this killing save the lives of numerous decent prisoners?
A: I can say that in the case of Kusehnier Kuscharew, yes, because Kusehnier Kuscharew during that time of 1941 until the end of 1941 quite certainly was responsible for the death of one thousand — 1200 Russian prisoners and German political prisoners.
In the case of other killings of which I know for certain, the situation is exactly the same. I believe that if Kuschnier Kuscharew had lived to experience the end of the Buchenwald camp he probably would have achieved a record figure four to five times as big.
Q: In what manner did the illegal camp administrator ascertain who the informers and stool pigeons were?
A: The illegal camp administration really only consisted of prominent political prisoners. This illegal camp administration saw that every position, be it commando, leader of the camp, or the camp physician, in other words every position where interesting things might be learned, was held by their confidence men and everything they managed to find out, be it orders from the SS, be it work of the traitors and informers, whom I have mentioned, was immediately reported to their own men. I would like to add that the seat of the illegal camp administration always was in the sick-bay as long as I knew Buchenwald. Dr. Hoven was perfectly well informed about what was going on inside the camp and without reserve approved of the measures adopted by the detainees. I can well say that Dr. Hoven has always been the beck-bone of the illegal camp administration.
Q: To what extent did Dr. Hoven participate in these killings?
A: I did not understand that question, would you mind repeating it?
Q: To what extent did Dr. Hoven participate in these killings?
A: I know for certain of five killings and they are those which I have already mentioned. These killings took place in the presence of Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] Dr. Ding and a man unknown to me, whom I think was a doctor.
Q: Where did these killings take place?
A: In the Hospital Theater No. 2
Q: Where do you derive you knowledge from?
A: I would like to tell this Tribunal that I am possibly the only prisoner of Buchenwald who without the knowledge was observing all killing of Dr. Hoven and the camp administration. I spent a long time in Ward No. 6 where Dr. Hoven placed me as a nurse.
Every time a SS man entered the camp I knew it. I of course, did watch out from my window by climbing on my bed or by taking a high stool, I could from the latrine look directly into the operational theater from the top window. Consequently, I could see every move in the operational theater. I could see the inside of the operational theater, I could see the operating surgeon and ascertain accurately what was going on in the operational theater.
Q: Did you see that apart from the high informers and traitors you mentioned Dr. Hoven killed other people?
A: That I never saw.
Q: Would you have seen it if it had happened?
A: I would have because I have already mentioned that every time a member of the SS, be it a Doctor or anyone else, entered, I immediately went upon my observation post.
Q: For what period can you testify to this?
A: I was appointed in March of 1941 and went from Buchenwald to Auschwitz a few days after the arrest of Dr. Hoven, that is to say that during the period from 1941 to 20 September 1943 I was there.
Q: During this period were you always present in ward 6?
A: Yes, I was always in ward 6.
Q: What about the nights?
A: During the night I slept in the ante-room of operating theater 2. In other words, everyone who had to enter operating theater 2 had to pass through my bedroom and thus I could really see everyone who had any business in operating theater 2. During the night no one could enter the operating theater from the back since I had orders to lock the back door of the operating theater every night after the end of treatments and to hand the key to the chief nurse.
Q: Could it have happened that these killings were carried out in another operational theater?
A: No.
Q: Can you give any detailed reasons?
A: Operational theater No. 1 was worked in exclusively by Dr. Horn, the Czecho-Slovakian prisoner doctor, who carried out all operations and also the Czech prisoner, Dr. Matnschek and I believe with certainty if anything happened in that operating theater that Horn would have opposed it and would have informed all of us immediately. Apart from that Operational theater no. 1 is a room where only operations of an internal nature are carried out and for that reason had to be kept completely sterile. For instance, if I wanted to enter operational theater 1, I had to undergo complete disinfection before and I cannot imagine that any other personnel could have entered operational theater 1 at all.
Q: What do you know about Room No. 11?
A: I know that Room No. 11 until 1941 was a hospital ward in the T.B.C., the so called Alm.
Q: And what do you know about Room No. 11 after 1941?
A: At the end of 1941 new furniture was put in and it was made a recreational and dining room for the nurses working in the T.B.C. station, since the camp physician had strictly prohibited that rooms where T.B.C. patients were confined should be used for eating.
Q: What do you know about the reputation of this Room No. 11?
A: The reputation of Room No. 11 was the worst in the whole camp of Buchenwald, because at the time when Dr. Eisele still acted as camp physician, he collected all the patients who no longer had any home for recovery in Room No. 11.
I hardly think that any of these patients left tee room alive. It was said that Dr. Eisele was liquidating incurable patients there.
Q: Up to what time would it have been possible, therefore, that killings went on in Room No. 11?
A: Actually only until the end of 1941, as long as Room No. 11 was a ward and hardly after that time.
Q: Who was chief camp physician until the end of 1941?
A: Dr. Blanke since Dr. Hoven only became camp physician in 1942.
Q: Let me put Doctor Horn's testimony to you, it is page 5396 of the German record. Dr. Horn only worked in the sick bay after the beginning of 1942 and he testified he had to sign a certificate that he could not enter Room No. 11; how can you explain that if according to your statement he was there as early as 1941 and Room No. 11 had become a recreational room for nurses?
A: The way I can explain it is that in 1942 and 1943 it was strictly prohibited that this department where T.B.C. patients were was to be entered by anyone. I, too, had been instructed by the camp physician and even by Capos to the effect that I had no business in the room for infectious wards for T.B.C. patients and I never tried to get there either.
Q: What do you know about the number of people killed by Dr. Hoven?
A: I have already said before that from 1941 to 1943 I was an eye witness to all killings. I can only testify in this court room that I have seen for myself how Dr. Hoven killed the five prisoners whom I mentioned. I would like to add at this point that after the second killing, Dr. Ding took the syringes away from him and accosted him.
Just what Dr. Ding said to Hoven I could not read from his lips, possibly he was not satisfied with Hoven's work.
Q: I shall now put Roemhild's testimony to you, according to the German Transcript Page No. 1639, he gave a figure of a thousand.
A: I can only reply to you by restating the fact that I was actually an eye witness to these killings. Roemhild, who did not work in the sickbay wards and had no opportunity either to watch the killings or to be actually present, cannot possibly know who carried out these killings. Naturally, it was assumed in the camp that the camp doctor was carrying out these deeds.
Q: Did you ever see that the Defendant Hoven killed people who did not act as stool-pigeons or informers for the camp administration?
A: I have certainly no knowledge of such a case.
Q: Will you please tell this Tribunal just in what manner it was ascertained in the case of these five people, whom you have talked about, if they were informers or stool-pigeons for certain?
A: The case of Kuschnir Kuschnarev was quite definitely a sensation in the entire camp. I don't believe there was a single prisoner who was so hated as this man, but I do know that Dr. Hoven nevertheless made absolutely certain just who Kuschnir Kuschnarev was. I am quite certain that during those two days when Kuschnir Kuschnarev was in the hospital, Dr. Hoven interrogated one hundred witnesses for certain to find out whether Kuschnir Kuschnarev was really the traitor whom he had been told about.
Q: Did the defendant. Dr. Hoven, kill prisoners who were unable to live any longer?
A: No.
Q: Did the defendant. Dr. Hoven, kill prisoners who reported to him for treatment?
A: No, I have never seen Dr. Hoven send a prisoner away who went to him for treatment or blame him or hit him as so many other damp doctors did.
Q: If any other persons carried out similar killings, would not Dr. Hoven have had to hear of such acts?
A: I really couldn't give you an explanation just how Dr. Hoven would have gained such knowledge because if people were killed then it was always done at the exact moment when Dr. Hoven wasn't in the camp.
I would like to give you a brief explanation on this point. At the entrance to the sick bay there was a doorkeeper's hut and in that hut a political prisoner sat whose name was Franz Blass. In this shed there was a bell and when Dr. Hoven came down the camp street which was clearly visible from this doorkeeper's shed then Blass had orders to ring this bell twice. If anything illegal was going on in the sick bay by prisoners or by the SS and this bell rang twice, then all activities ceased. Consequently, Dr. Hoven could never surprise anyone who was doing anything or trying to do anything without his knowledge or had possibly done some such thing.
Q: Wasn't it essential that Dr. Hoven had to gain knowledge of these killings because of the fatality or casualty reports in the camp?
A: To my knowledge, that was impossible. The ordinary normal death figure at the camp Buchenwald at that time was very low. Up to now I have read every publication and checked everything that was written about Buchenwald and I have devoted myself intensely to the study of these articles but they all concurred that the normal death rate in the camp at Buchenwald did not exceed 2%. It was, therefore, quite certainly not difficult to smuggle in a few dead, particularly since Dr. Hoven didn't sign all the death certificates; but since this was purely a matter for prisoners and in cases where the bodies were dissected the death certificate was issued together with the findings of the dissection, signed by a prisoner in the sick bay, and then passed on to the Buchenwald Registrar.
He countersigned it and then sent the certificate to the relatives of the dead person. I, for instance, would never have had the courage if I had know about the killings to go to Dr. Hoven and say, "This and that man has killed," because the capos would have immediately taken my life for it.
Q: What can you say about the extent of the entire goings on in the sick bay? Was it, pretty big?
A: The sick bay at Buchenwald was actually very large, indeed. There was a large barracks for internal diseases, two barracks for surgeons' patients, and then across the park there were two further barracks. There were altogether approximately eight rooms and I think that it was just as impossible for Dr. Hoven as it was for myself to control all those eight barracks and supervise them simultaneously.
Q: Was it for those reasons that defendant Hoven couldn't concern himself with all details in the sick bay?
A: I would almost like to say that the sick bay of a prison camp isn't a private clinic and that Dr. Hoven didn't know most of the patients who were there personally at all and, therefore, he didn't discover if one or the other prisoner wasn't in the sick bay any more. The following day if he had really made inquiries on any occasion then he would have gotten the answer that the prisoner had been released back into the camp.
Q: What, was Dr. Hoven's attitude regarding prisoners and, particularly, sick prisoners.
A: That question I can only answer "excellent," if I draw a comparison between other camp doctors and during my detention I met 20 or 25 camp doctors.
For instance, I remember one certain doctor by the name of Eisele who took special pleasure in accosting elderly Jews in the camp and asking them if they were hungry and telling them if they would go straight to the sick bay he would give them something to eat; and then, instead of giving them food there or any type of assistance, Dr. Eisele took his hypodermic syringe from his pocket and took two such poor wretches and gave them doses so that the victims usually suffered terrible cramps and, for Dr. Eisele's amusement and in front of prisoners who might like to see that sort of thing, were rolling about in front of the barracks or might start screaming and raging. In comparison to all that, I must say that Dr. Hoven did a great deal for prisoners, particularly for recently operated prisoners.
You might think it somewhat funny if I tell you here that in a concentration camp people who have just been operated receive an additional ration of good butter, milk, white bread and fruit or that the treatment of convalescent people actually included the construction of a wonderful garden ordered by Dr. Hoven and that they managed to get deck-chairs in their garden so that recuperating patients could lie in the sun in deck chairs during their stay. During my prison term I got to know three camp doctors and I never saw any other doctor doing anything like that.
Apart from that I would like to add that all prisoners in the camp liked Dr. Hoven very much and that every prisoner who had any troubles, be that he be sentenced to flogging or anything like that, whenever he went to see Dr. Hoven he always found a willing ear. I can certainly put sufficient cases to you here where prisoners had been sentenced to 25 lashes and when Dr. Hoven managed to carry out some sort of manipulations in order to save people from this type of punishment.
Q: Did the defendant, Dr. Hoven, make efforts to give sick patients every conceivable medical attention?
A: I can certainly say that to the best of my conscience.
Q: Can you give examples to this Tribunal?
A: First of all, I would like to describe the case of a 17 year-old Jewish prisoner. This prisoner, named Kurt Glaeser, used to carry soil for the head gardener an Unterscharfuehrer [Sergeant], Dombeck. Some how, on one or so occasions, this man took a dislike to him and he tried to hit him and hit him so unfortunately with his boot that Glaeser dropped to the ground. Dombeck jumped upon this young man with both feet and this inflicted a complicated double fracture of the thigh. That was somewhat unpleasant for Dombeck. The prisoner was taken to the sick bay and there he was supposed to be liquidated.
When this prisoner was admitted Dr. Hoven was present in my ward and allocated a bed in my ward to this Jew. I can say that this young man would never have survived in that camp if Dr. Hoven hadn't left him in my ward for a year and a half. I have experienced frequently during that period that Dr. Hoven came along and asked him if he had any wishes and I know that this prisoner was operated probably nine or ten time within that period without knowledge of the Kommandant's office.
Then there is another case I would like to tell you about. It was forbidden as a matter of principle that Jewish prisoners should be admitted to the sick bay or treated there. Dr. Eisele certainly observed that instruction most strictly; but, once Dr. Hoven gained a certain amount of influence in the camp, he found illegal ways and means for establishing a small ward for Jews only and he forbad expressly that we, nurses should draw Jewish marks upon the patient's history and fever chart. If there were visitors or if the camp Kommandant went through, Dr. Hoven always described these patients as being non-Jewish. I am firmly convinced that many a Jew that was doctored there is still alive today but otherwise that he would probably have died in 1942.
Q: Will you please describe to the Tribunal Dr. Hoven's attitude toward you when you were sick?
A: At that time I was working in the quarry and I contracted a swelling of the glands. I was operated on by the prisoner Walter Kraemer and then was discharged from the sick bay and got eight days of light duty, but unfortunately a few days later the same trouble occurred again, Glandula Inguinalis, a swelling on the left side, and I returned to the sick bay and reported sick and my reception wasn't exactly glorious, because first of all Kraemer described me as an asocial element, and that these were penitentiary methods, and I had inflicted this trouble upon myself, and I had done something to cause my second hernia gland to swell, and he ordered me to wait until the out-patients had been dealt with, and I didn't know at the time what this meant, but I learned later that this waiting would have meant my death, since after the other prisoners had left the operating station, I would have been transported elsewhere, you know where — and then Dr. Hoven came along and asked me what I was suffering from and took an obvious interest in me, and I can't tell you why today, I don't know, but at any rate Dr. Hoven made an incision with his own hands, and after I was discharged from the sick bay he managed to get me a job in the prisoners' kitchen, and now I would like your permission to describe just how I got into the sick bay.
A political prisoner who was suffering from a very serious infection underwent the amputation of an arm. This prisoner's life depended upon whether he could be given fresh blood or not and thus the loud speaker of the camp announced that if there was a prisoner in the camp who had once given blood, then he should immediately report to the sick bay. Some time previously I had given blood in a University clinic and I knew I had blood group "0" and was therefore universal, and so due to the loud speaker's announcement I went to the sick bay and gave 300 cubic centimeters of my blood to him and I was about to leave the sick bay at the moment and Dr. Hoven said: "You will stay here first of all and relax properly, and you will refresh your food situation," and I stayed in bed for about three or four days, and after that I got up, and Dr. Hoven gave me instructions to report to the food store of the SS, which was under the care of Hauptscharfuehrer [Staff Seargent] Barsch, and Dr. Hoven wrote down for me that Hauptscharfuehrer Barsch should give me very large quantities of rations, and this special ration at that time consisted of approximately two pounds of butter, 5 liters of milk, several pounds of good sausage, white bread and grapes, and then I received glucose in addition to that, and I was about to leave the sick bay about four weeks later, when Dr. Hoven came along quite suddenly and told me: "You don't have to work in the camp. You can stay right here in the sick bay. You can be employed here as a nurse." And then I was a cleaner for about a year and after that I was employed as a nurse.
Q: The story you have just told me, was that the defendant Hoven's attitude toward all prisoners or was that his attitude toward you because you were an acquaintance of Dr. Hoven?
A: Let me say before that that I hardly knew Dr. Hoven at all. In fact I only saw him once before when he operated on me. During the period of my blood transfusion, I didn't see Dr. Hoven at all since it was carried out by a nurse, and I don't think he was even a doctor, and I can certainly say it was only when I was about to leave the sick bay that Dr. Hoven took a renewed interest in me. I feel almost ashamed because some of my former comrades may be sitting in the audience and I would find it rather awkward if I would say I am the only one he preferred in this way.
Q: Would it be right to say that up to the moment you entered the sick bay you were one of many of the unknowns prisoners to Dr. Hoven?
A: I would like to add to that that any man who can see me sitting here today and who might have seen me at the time would probably not have given five cents for my life, because I had spent months in the penal company at Dachau and my physical condition was miserable.
Q: Would the defendant, Dr. Hoven, gain any advantages from you?
Was that the reason why he helped you?
A: What might I offer to Dr. Hoven? All I had were the prisoners' clothes I was wearing. I wasn't even allowed to keep my wedding ring when I was in prison, so what could I offer to Dr. Hoven?
Q: What was the general reputation of Dr. Hoven in the camp?
A: Let me say that contrary to other camp doctors, most prisoners took an interest in the personality of Dr. Hoven, because I believe among all members of the SS there wasn't a man about whom any good rumors circulated in the camp. It became known, for instance, that in one block in that camp, and I can't give it to you accurately which one it was, but it was in the row between blocks 45 and 50, there was a block with a fence around it, and in that block former high officials of the Dutch State were confined; among then the former Dutch Minister of Finance and the Minister for Colonies and a high ranking government official from India, and also a certain professor, Dr. Elderi, who had once been the head of the International Rhine Control Commission, and there were many other well known personalities from Holland. These people had a great deal of advantages over other prisoners, and they succeeded in getting Dr. Hoven over to their side completely. I know for certain that Dr. Hoven helped a great many of these people to regain their freedom and it is a well known fact and case that Dr. Hoven really employed means to have these people released, and had he been found out it would have resulted in his immediate detention by the Gestapo, and having to face very probably the next special court. Dr. Hoven succeeded in having these people released when they were only physically weak or sick, to fake x-ray findings for healthy people by substituting photographs of tubercular patients, by which means he succeeded in getting these people out.
Q: Would it have been possible to say that in accordance with Hoven's position in Buchenwald that he actually killed prisoners when there was no other in the community to do so?
A: Your Honors, I can't imagine that a man who helped a Jew who had no right to live in the National Socialist state, that he killed people is possible, a man who asked him for his wishes regarding food and nursed him and aided him in the sick bay for months and even helped conceal him in the sick bay for years, that the same man arbitrarily might have carried out killings which were not necessary.
I just cannot imagine such a thing.
Q: What was the medical care like during the time when the defendant Hoven was camp physician at Buchenwald?
A: I am glad to say that this medical care was a very good one. I would like to emphasize particularly at this point that this was a considerable achievement on the part of the old established political prisoners who collaborated with Dr. Hoven, because it is a fact that we obtained medical supplies, bandages and additional food from the Chief of the Hygiene Food Department at Berlin, Liehterfeldei. Apart from that it was possible during Hoven's period that he added two large huts to the camp hospital which were extremely well equipped and were really quite worthy if human beings. I can recollect that on several occasions during the inspections carried out by doctors who were members of the armed forces, the expressions were used: "Look here, doctor, the installations here is almost better than ours, even the barracks for the troops and our front line hospitals," and I want to add that until my departure in 1943, which was after the fourth year of war, we were still sleeping in beds with white sheets. We had blue and white sheets which were perfectly clean, and in 1943 in addition to that we still had considerable quantities of glucose, insulin and so on, which many soldiers have told me that the front line hospitals were terribly short of.
Q: Were there sufficient beds?
A: I can well say yes, because I would estimate after all that there were certainly 800 to 900 beds in the prison hospital in Buchenwald, and apart from that Dr. Hoven so organized it, if the sick bay was really full, then prisoners received a so-called light duty certificate, which meant that they could stay in bed in their own block.
I can remember very accurately for instance that at the beginning when Dr. Hoven had become camp doctor that the death rate in the camp Buchenwald really went down quite a bit and it happened that half of the wards in the sick bay were empty. Among us prisoners there was a general rumor that Dr. Hoven really deserved great praise for what he did in the sick bay.
Q: I would like to submit to you once again Document 1063 of the War Crimes Commission at Amsterdam and I shall now out to you Schalter's testimony on page 16 of the German translation. Schalter states in this document that the camp doctor, Dr. Hoven, played an extremely bad part and, no doubt, had on his conscience the death of innumerable people due to insufficient medical care. The witness says "food supplies" but the translation of that is a mistake. It is medical care in the Dutch original. Now, let me ask you, was Schalter working in the Sick Bay?
A: No.
Q: Would Schalter then be in possession of the necessary knowledge which would enable him to pass judgment on the medical situation at Buchenwald?
A: Counsel, I think I have already said to you before once today that an outsider would have found it quite impossible to have gained insight into the prison hospital or the Sick Bay and the actual camp had been two separate camps at all times. Furthermore I am firmly convinced that if I hadn't been working in the Sick Bay myself and were told today that Dr. Hoven played a bad part that I would assume that to be the truth without criticism because outsiders are not informed about the conditions and about the activities of a camp physician.
Q: Do you know a case where a prisoner during the time when Dr. Hoven was camp physician died because of insufficient medical care?
A: Amongst the people who were operated on by the prisoner Dr. Horn, with Dr. Hoven as the assisting surgeon, I cannot remember a single case.
Q: What do you know about the defendant Dr. Hoven's political views?
A: I can't imagine that Dr. Hoven was a famous Nazi because I think if he had had any plans of that nature then he would have placed his whole wireless set at the disposal of the people in the hospital — that gave us a wonderful opportunity of listening to England and Moscow every night. Apart from that Dr. Hoven was most certainly informed that there were two night watchmen in the hospital especially for this purpose. I can remember very well that Dr. Hoven placed his dog at the disposal of one of these watchmen so that anyone who approached the Sick Bay was immediately announced by the dog and the night watchman said "Watch out, trouble, turn off the switch." I believe if Dr. Hoven had been a convinced SS man he would hardly have made jokes like that.
Q: You have already spoke about Dr. Hoven's attitude toward the Jews. Do you have anything you want to add or would you just describe Dr. Hoven's attitude toward Jews summarily.
A: I believe that it is generally known that Jewish prisoners in that camp were actually suffering the worst lot of all. If an SS man, be it the doctor or be it another ascertained the block leader of the Jewish blocks was taking an interest in the Jews, then he had to take quite some risks because he always stood between the prisoners and the SS and I know for certain if the preferential treatment which Dr. Hoven gave the Jews had been known then Dr. Hoven wouldn't be in the Dock today. I think at that time he would have gone the way so many prisoners went at the camp in Buchenwald. I would really like to remind you of the case of August Cohn in this connection. I think I have mentioned the name once before today. Cohn was a German, a political Jew, and with his comrades and all the prisoners in the camp he had an excellent reputation.
One day this man was supposed to leave the camp of Buchenwald on a transport. The illegal camp administrator immediately contacted Hoven saying there was danger for Cohn to be transported away from Buchenwald. Dr. Hoven immediately adopted the necessary measures and brought Cohn to Block 46. I can remember that a few weeks before Cohn left for the United States, because I live near Kassel, I met him in the street quite by accident when he had a break down of his car. I recognized him immediately and stopped and started talking with him. For the first time I learned that the defendant Hoven had later been a prisoner in the concentration camp of Buchenwald. Cohn also told me that an American Armored Troop had put Hoven on top of a tank and had taken him from Weimar to Buchenwald. When they got to Buchenwald Cohn saw Hoven standing on top of the tank and he stopped the American driver and said to the officer who was there, "Gentlemen, don't do any harm to this man. He is the man who fought in our ranks." Your Honor, could you imagine that a Jew of all people — those people who suffered most by hardship in that camp — would speak up to save the life of an SS man and describe him as a decent humanizing? I don't believe so. I wouldn't do it in any other case either.
Q: Will you please tell this Tribunal the measures adopted by the defendant Dr. Hoven in order to camouflage Jews in that legal Sick Bay?
A: It happened very often that Jews who arrived in the prisoners' Sick Bay were immediately deprived of all articles, that the markings were removed from the prisoner's clothes and all that was left was a number so that any camp commander who might come to the Sick Bay, even the commandant or little SS men, could never find out that these prisoners were Jews.
It happened every day after all that Jews suffered ill treatment in the open camp streets. If one of these gentlemen might have had a bad breakfast he would then go out and assault those Jewish prisoners, beat them senseless. And I must add that all these people who came back from flogging were admitted to the Sick Bay by Dr. Hoven although this was severely prohibited. I would like to tell you about the Jewish prisoner Brandt from Hamburg. I know I am under oath in this Court Room and that I must think carefully about every word I am saying. I want to tell you that this man Brandt had four operations on his behind since all flesh had been beaten off his hones. Dr. Hoven kept this man perhaps 8 or 9 months in the Sick Bay and I assure you he was excellently fed first of all for pity the nurses felt for him, and secondly, Hoven saw what this man had gone through, a terrible torture. I am not exaggerating when I say he had sores on his behind as large as my hand and it must be highly considered that Dr. Hoven helped so much at the time.
Q: What was Dr. Hoven's concern regarding food supplies for the prisoners?
A: I would like to say that I myself accompanied Dr. Hoven during many inspections of the prison kitchen and it happened quite often that Dr. Hoven took a plate from the kettle in which the prisoner's food was cooked and tried this food. When Dr. Hoven felt that the food was not edible he went straight to the phone and got in touch with the commandant and replied that the food would go straight to the pig stye, the work would be interrupted, the prisoners would return to the camp and a new meal would be cooked and only the newly cooked meal would be given out I know he went to the prison kitchen three to five times a week.
Q: What other measures did Dr. Hoven adopt in the interest of the prisoners?
A: Counsel, would you kindly repeat the question, please?
Q: What additional measures did Dr. Hoven adopt in the interest of the prisoners?
A: I know for instance that a large number of cases when prisoners had to do hard physical work in the working party so that many were near physical breakdown. I have also experienced it that Dr. Hoven crossed the parade square several times and that during rool call, which before Dr. Hoven's time occupied three to four hours, convinced himself of the physical condition of the prisoners. No doubt the whole camp was deeply grateful to Dr. Hoven that he succeeded to reduce the roll call period in Buchenwald to a minimum. I can well say that roll call during Hoven's period hardly took longer than 20 minutes. Now when Hoven saw people on the parade square that looked weak and badly nourished he gave instructions to take down the number of the detainee and saw very quickly that that prisoner went to another working party.
Q: What do you know about measures adopted by the defendant Dr. Hoven to save Polish people who were to be hanged because they had sexual intercourse with German girls?
A: The situation of those Polish prisoners in the camp was rather bad. Most of them, after they were in Buchenwald for two or three weeks, were called to the political department by either LeClair or Serno and hanged. After the illegal camp administration and Dr. Hoven had discovered that there did exist the possibility to save these people since there was an order from Berlin to the effect that Poles who spoke German well were be Germanized if possible, Dr. Hoven made excessive use of this loophole. I could describe you many a case when Polish prisoners, who were in the camp for three or four days and could, therefore, not be recognized as good comrades in that short period, were instructed to report to the sick bay where they were then physically and medically examined, measuring was carried out — this always appeared most ridiculous to me — and then these people were included in some list — I think it went up to 5 — and then when Dr. Hoven succeeded in putting these men on List # 5 then they had escaped death because a German who had intercourse with a German girl couldn't very well be hanged for that.
Q: Had prisoners requested the defendant Dr. Hoven that when he was away from Buchenwald he should always leave a message to the effect where he could be found?
A: I'd like to say that the hospital had connection with Dr. Hoven's apartment, even I think with the the commandant, the commandant's office and the gate by telephone, and every time that Dr. Hoven left the hospital he told the nurse on duty where he could be found. It happened for instance, that operations had to be carried out right in the middle of the night. Sometimes, quite possibly, Dr. Horn didn't know whether he could carry on without Dr. Hoven's, the camp physician's permission or not and then he went to the telephone and got Dr. Hoven, but I have got to say that in no case which I ever saw did Dr. Hoven refuse to came, making some excuses or even delayed.
It was generally known that when Dr. Hoven was needed in the camp he was there. There were circumstances sometimes when, quite suddenly, two or three camp leaders arrived in the sick bay. They had got an idea somehow that the camp hospital was really the seat of the illegal camp administration, and they started to turn everything up side down looking for pamphlets, written and printed documents, radio receivers and transmitters, and it never took a long time before Dr. Hoven showed up and stopped these people from carrying out further search, telling them that they made a nuisance of themselves. I think many a beating was saved in that way and many of our good comrades escaped the crematorium that way.
Q: Was it generally known in the camp that the defendant Dr. Hoven collaborated with the illegal camp administration?
A: If I were to say "generally" in the camp that would probably be too much because if we question one hundred persons from Buchenwald in this court room and ask them who was the illegal camp administration then ninety-nine of them wouldn't be able to give you a definite answer. I must tell you that I myself had been in frequent contact with the illegal camp administration, but if you ask me today or if you tell me to write down the names of the illegal camp administration then I certainly wouldn't get beyond my immediate superior. If there were any messages or reports or orders to be transmitted by me then I only had one man who was directly ahead of me who was designated to me and all I knew was that I had to tell him but I didn't even know to whom he went as the next one. The illegal camp administration, therefore, was always quite definitely a very mysterious affair. Admittedly, the SS camp administration always stated that the former hospital capo, Ernst Busse, had been the head of this conspiracy, but I wouldn't like to state that here because, quite definitely I can't tell you for certain.
Q: What do you know about the reasons for Dr. Hoven's arrest by the Secret State Police?
A: The official arrest of Dr. Hoven I heard very little, but I assume that subsequently to this arrest I was immediately sent away from Buchenwald because it was very probable that the SS were convinced that I might have seen too much with Hoven and that it was high time, after Hoven went, that I went too. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason why Dr. Hoven was arrested was this. The SS camp administration quite definitely did not fail to see the collaboration between the illegal camp administration and Dr. Hoven. In order not to make themselves ridiculous they couldn't obviously arrest Dr. Hoven and say "You have collaborated with the prisoners" because the prisoners who collaborated with Dr. Hoven could well be hanged without a word of treason ever passing their lips. We certainly saw this case masses of times in Buchenwald because people being under suspicion of being in the illegal camp administration went to the so-called "bunker" in Buchenwald where they died in extreme misery; fortunately, however, without ever giving their comrades away. So I think it would have been quite useless if Dr. Hoven had been arrested officially in order to get from him the names of the illegal camp administration because I don't believe Dr. Hoven would have become that weak.
Q: Will you please describe to the Tribunal how it happened that you arrived here as a witness?
A: I read in the news papers that, at present, Dr. Hoven was in the prison in Nurnberg and that he was being held responsible for the euthanasia program before the International Military Tribunal in Nurnberg and, at the same time, I read that a certain Dr. Gawlik had taken over the defense of this defendant. Now, since I owe my own life to Dr. Hoven, and since I have seen so many good deeds done to me during the time of my detention, I came here as a voluntary witness. Neither the prosecution nor the defense asked me to do that and it's really incomprehensible to me that all these men who once lived well thanks to Dr. Hoven and who, today, have very important positions in Germany, and I'll just briefly mention the Vice President of Thuringia here in this connection.
I do not understand the personal cowardice of this man that he hasn't come to Nurnberg today to say "That's how the situation is". There are other people too who are holding high police offices in the Russian Zone today. Why do these people not consider it necessary that the man who has done so much good for them and saved their lives or made their lives easy for them during many years of detention — that these people didn't come here today. I'd also like to say that it was tried to create difficulties for me. When it became known to the Committee for Racially Persecuted People that I would appear as a witness in Nurnberg, it was actually tried quite shortly beforehand to have me imprisoned. They weren't even ashamed to talk to fellow prisoners behind my back and ask them if it wasn't possible that I might have beaten a Jew on some occasion or whether there wasn't some reason for my arrest thus preventing my journey to Nurnberg. But these men didn't score in that effort.
Q: Thank you. I have no further questions to the witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours, 5 June 1947)