1947-06-21, #3: Doctors' Trial (early Saturday afternoon)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 21 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
May it please Your Honors, defendant Pokorny is absent, having been excused by the Tribunal. The defendant Oberheuser and the defendant Gebhardt are absent due to illness, having been excused by the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has a certificate signed by Captain Martin, surgeon in U.S. Army, stating that defendant Oberheuser and defendant Gebhardt should be excused this afternoon on account of illness. They are excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon. The Secretary General will file the doctor's certificate with the record.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. STEINBAUER (For the defendant Beiglboeck): Mr. President, having heard the witness Mettbach, I have concluded my case for the defendant Beiglboeck.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, counsel. The Tribunal now calls the case against the defendant Hoven. Is counsel ready? Is counsel ready to proceed?
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Hoven): Yes. Mr. President, let me first recall to the Tribunal the fact that in the case of the defendant Dr. Hoven I have already heard the witnesses Piekk, Dr. Horn, and Dorn. As further evidence, and in further pursuance of this case, I ask permission to call the defendant Hoven to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of his counsel the defendant Waldemar Hoven will take the witness stand.
WALDEMAR HOVEN, a defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q: The defendant will please raise his right hand and be sworn, repeating after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Waldemar Hoven):
Q: Your name is Waldemar Hoven, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You are an M.D.?
A: Yes.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: 10 February 1903 in Freiburg in Breisgau.
Q: Please describe to the Tribunal your career.
A: I attended high school in 1918. I was graduated, went to southern Sweden at that time, working in agriculture, thence to Denmark until 1920. In 1921 I went to the United States and in 1924 I returned to Germany. After my return I took over the administration of my father's estate until 1930. 1931 to 1933 I went as a journalist to Paris. In the summer of 1933 I returned to Germany. My father died in 1930. In 1933 my brother died, who had been a doctor and died in our sanatorium. I then took over the administration of my father's sanatorium; the medical direction of it was to remain in the family. I prepared for graduation from high school and in 1934 I was graduated.
Then I studied medicine until 1939.
Q: What did you do in the United States?
A: I was an agriculture inspector.
Q: What further training does a doctor in Germany go through after finishing his studies?
A: For one year he is a medical intern.
Q: Did you go through this internship?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you have any specialized training as a doctor?
A: No.
Q: Did you belong to the General SS?
A: Yes.
Q: When did. you join it?
A: 1934.
Q: Why?
A: On the basis of the laws at that time, only persons were permitted to study who belonged to the Party or one of its affiliations. I did not wish to join the Party and for this reason I joined the affiliation, namely, the SS. I had a friend by that time by the name of Albert Mutz who led the SS-Sturm in Freiburg. He told me that I simply had to join it formally in order to be allowed to begin my studies, and I had to do the regular SS duties.
Q: What was your last rank in the General-SS?
A: Unterscharfuehrer [Lieutenant].
Q: Was the Unterscharfuehrer a member of the Fuehrer Corps of the SS?
A: No, There were three ranks between the Unterscharfuehrer and the Unterscharfuehrer corresponded in rank to a lieutenant.
Q: Let us make this perfectly clear, At what rank did the Fuehrer Corps begin?
A: I just said, with the rank of Unterscharfuehrer, which equalled lieutenant.
Q: Until when did you belong to the General-SS?
A: Until the 28th of August, 1939.
Q: From what date on did you belong to the Waffen-SS?
A: From the same date, 28 August, 1939?
Q: Did you voluntarily join the Waffen-SS?
A: No. I received an order at this day and I was drafted.
Q: Is it true that you joined and belonged to the Waffen SS on the basis of a legal decree?
A: Yes, that is so.
Q: Why did you obey this order to be drafted?
A: This was a military order which I had to obey, just the way everyone else had to obey such orders. It was a drafting similar to the drafting the army carried out.
Q: What activities did you have in the Waffen-SS?
A: First I was a common soldier in the Waffen-SS, On the basis of a legal decree, all doctors were extracted from the troops. On 26 October 1939 I went to Buchenwald as an assistant doctor to the troop doctor.
Q: Why did you obey this order?
A: It was a military order, that I had to obey.
Q: What activities did you have in Buchenwald?
A: I was assistant doctor to the troop doctor and was medically in charge of the guards.
Q: In this capacity did you have any function in the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A: No.
Q: During this activity did you enter the protective custody camp of Buchenwald?
A: No. No, that was strictly forbidden. One needed a special pass to do so and only the camp doctors received that pass.
Q: During your activities as assistant doctor for the guards there did you know that in the protective custody camp any crimes were committed?
A: No, I had no connection with the protective custody camp or the concentration camp.
Q: When did your activities in the concentration camp Buchenwald begin?
A: January 1941.
Q: Why did you permit yourself to he transferred from the guards to the concentration camp Buchenwald?
A: One day I received an order from Berlin and was thereby transferred to the concentration camp.
Q: What was your first position in the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A: I was second camp doctor.
Q: Who was the first camp doctor at that time?
A: One Dr. Max Blancke.
Q: Witness Roemhild testified here that when Blancke was still first camp physician, you occupied a very powerful position. That is page 1658 of the English transcript. Is that correct?
A: What Roehmhild meant is certainly the following: From the very first days of my presence in the concentration camp, I succeeded in doing a great deal for the prisoners, particularly for the non-Germans, such as the Czechs, Dutchmen, Poles and Jewish prisoners.
From this fact the impression might have arisen in Roemhild's and other prisoners' minds, that I occupied a very powerful position. In reality, however, I was having great difficulties at this time in having my will carried out because I had to take my chief into consideration who was by no means a friend off the political prisoners. Officially I was subordinate to Dr. Blancke and he issued all the directives.
Q: What was the situation at Buchenwald when you took over your activities as second camp physician?
A: When I took over this job the situation there was far from satisfactory.
Q: What improvements did you introduce during your activities as second camp doctor?
A: I had many patients listed as so-called convalescents or out-patients patients. These were really in part convalescents and in part prisoners who were not strong enough for heavy labor. Then, without my chief nor the camp commander knowing the fact. I set up a Jewish hospital and carried out the treatment of ambulant Jewish patients there. At first this had to be done at night and later I arranged things so that it was possible to do this treatment during the day. I then improved the medicine supply system. I got surgical instruments which, in part, were my own private instruments from the sanatorium, artificial sunlamps, etc. I then arranged that the prisoners could apply for sick-call at any time of the day or night and would then be treated. Incidentally, illegal baths were built into the barracks and the hospital without the knowledge of the camp commander.
Q: Did you act contrary to the orders of the Inspector of the concentration camps and of the camp commander?
A: Setting up the Jewish hospital and treating them was, at the beginning of my activities, strictly forbidden. Standard medical preparations could only be used for the SS troops.
Q: What consequences could this disobedience on your part have had for you?
A: Well, the consequences that could come from disobeying an order of Himmler's have probably become well enough known to the Tribunal in the course of this trial. I do not believe I have to go into that.
Q: When did you become first camp doctor?
A: June of 1942.
Q: How did that happen?
A: I don't know myself. I was most surprised.
Q: Describe your tasks and duties as first camp doctor.
A: Medical care of the prisoners under me. At least that is how I construed my tasks.
Q: Were you also garrison physician?
A: Yes, I was. What were the duties of the garrison physician?
A: His job was to take medical care of the guards.
Q: What did you have to do with the concentration camp in your capacity as garrison doctor?
A: Nothing
Q: Were there other camp doctors?
A: Yes.
Q: How many.
A: Two or three. It depended. It was different at different times.
Q: Did you have considerable medical knowledge at that time?
A: No.
Q: You have heard Kogen's testimony here, who stated that you had no particular interest in the medical affairs of the camp. This is page 1203 of the English transcript. Is that correct?
A: That impression might arise because I was not able to concern myself intimately with the medical care of the prisoners but no one can deny that the medical care for the prisoners and their treatment by specialist doctors was to a considerable extent impressed by [illegible] was a well known fact among the prisoners that at my time Buchenwald had the best hospital of all concentration camps. My main work, however was that of assisting the prisoners in view of the conditions of the camp at that time. This demanded a great deal of administrative work which used up my time completely.
Q: Kogen further asserted that you felt [illegible] of medicine and that you made no secret of this. This is page 1203 of the English transcript, is that so?
A: I know enough about medicine to know what was missing and what was absolutely necessary for perfect treatment and care of the sick people in the camp to be possible. And that I accomplished. And that was the main thing after all. There would have had to have been the goal of an experienced doctor as well.
Q: If you had not really finished your medical training and had no specialist training, how could you fulfill your duties as first camp doctor at Buchenwald?
A: When I began my activities as camp doctor in Buchenwald the medical care and treatment was carried out in part by prisoners who were not doctors. Some of my predecessors, all of whom were experienced doctors carried out major operations. I corrected those conditions immediately and put specialists in. For example, Dr. Horn as chief physician for the surgical department, Dr. Matuesek, M-a-t-u-s-e-k, I made chief physician for the internal department and Dr. Schallak, a Czech Jewish doctor, was director of the TB Department. I gave them absolute authority over the nurses. Theoretically they were subordinate to me. However, they never received from me orders to carry out their duties in the matter of medical care. They could work without any interference from me exactly as if they were in a regular hospital.
Later I got other specialists to take care of the patients, namely Poles and Frenchmen. The quality of these prisoner doctors was guarantee enough for me that all sick people without exception would be accorded the best possible medical care. I gave those prisoner doctors a perfectly free hand because I said to myself that they would be most concerned for the welfare of their fellow prisoners and that, of course, was the case. Therefore, so long as the SS doctors were doing official duties I made them subordinate to the prisoner doctors. That is to say, I made them assistants to Drs. Horn and Matusek and the other doctors. For these reasons I employed these prisoner doctors contrary to a specific order from Himmler and Grawitz. It was strictly forbidden to use drugs and medicines from the drug stores for prisoners. I did not obey this order. In 1942 and 1943 I was the largest user of drugs from the drug stores in Weimar and because of my large consumption of drugs I twice had to explain my actions to the head office in Berlin. However, large amounts of medicine were necessary. To the extent that specialized treatment to prisoners in Buchenwald was not possible I sent sick patients to the Clinic at the University of Vienna, I think this was the most unique occurrence in the history of concentration camps.
Q: You named Drs. Horn and Matusek. Is that Dr. Horn you mention identical with the witness here?.
A: Yes, that's the same man.
Q: What was Dr. Matusek's citizenship?
A: He was also a Czechoslovakian.
Q: Dr. Kogon further stated that you had a triple function in Buchenwald. First, camp physician, secondly deputy of Ding-Schuler in block 46, and third as the deputy of the leading physician of the camp. This is on page 1209 of the English transcript.
A: I was never Ding-Schuler's deputy in block 46. That can be seen from Ding's diary, It is also incorrect to designate me Dr. Lolling's deputy.
For three weeks when Dr. Lolling was absent I was working in his office. I was not the official deputy with executive powers nor did I issue directives or orders. I did, however, carry out the functions of camp doctor.
Q: I turn now to the typhus charge. When was the typhus experimental station in Buchenwald set up?
A: So far as I recall that was at the turn of the year 1941 to 1942.
Q: What was the reason for setting up this experimental station precisely in Buchenwald?
A: The reason was, I think, that Dr. Ding had been camp doctor in Buchenwald since 1938 and, therefore, knew the situation in that camp very precisely.
Q: Who was director of the experimental station?
A: Ding-Schuler.
Q: Did you know him?
A: Yes, of course.
Q: Kogen characterizes Schuler as follows. This is page 1258 of the English Transcript.
He was ambitious, always watching out for number one. He wanted to be regarded as an important man by the public, particularly in the university. Ho sought every opportunity to further his personal interests and to have himself looked up to.
A: That description of Kogen is certainly correct, Kogen knew Ding-Schuler much better than I did, moreover, and was more closely connected with him that I was. Ding would have even sacrificed his own family for his own personal advantage. Ding, because of this, made serious efforts to keep other people, including myself, from having any insight in his station for virus research.
Q: Where were you Ding's deputy?
A: I was his deputy in block 50.
Q: Why was Ding interested in having you be his deputy in Block 50?
A: First of all because I provided him with very material advantages through these illegal work shops have repeatedly been described here. Secondly, I was the only doctor whom the prisoners trusted and who, therefore, could collect the employees and assistants that were to work in block 50. Otherwise, he would have been unable to find them because it was a matter of common knowledge in the concentration camp that they often concealed their true profession because they never knew what they were going to be used for.
Q: For what reasons did Dr. Ding not have you made his permanent deputy in block 46 as well.
A: That was impossible because I had no specialized knowledge which would be the minimum requirement for any deputy. The nurses there had already acquired considerable knowledge so that they were superior to me in this field. I had neither time nor interest to concern myself with these problems. Therefore I could not have given the prisoners any orders.
Q: Is it then true, as Dr. Kogon said, that the ambitious Dr. Ding had nothing to fear in the way of competition from Dr. Hoven?
A: Certainly that is true, as Kogon says correctly only the most he had to fear was competitors, but the minimum requirements for a competitor is that he has specialized medical training in hygiene, so he didn't have to fear me as a competitor.
Q: I shall now put to you Document NO-571, in Document Book XII, page 15. Here there is a notation to the effect that on 16th August 1943, Dr. Ding moved to Buchenwald; is that correct? This is on page 15.
A: Dr. Ding's family moved at this time to Weimar. However, at the time the typhus experiments began he had his own room in the officer's barracks in Buchenwald.
Q: What do you know about Ding's activities in the department for typhus and virus research in Buchenwald?
A: I was never present during any experiments, but it was generally known that typhus experiments were being carried out on prisoners.
Q: What was your activity in Block 46?
A: At Block 46 I had no medical or research activities or duties at all.
Q: Were you Dr. Ding's deputy for Block 46?
A: No, I did not represent Dr. Ding in Block 46. Once for a short time I was his deputy in Block 44 and 49, but at that time there were no experiments being carried out.
Q: Where were you his deputy?
A: Block 50.
Q: What was being done in Block 50?
A: Typhus serum was being manufactured there.
Q: Were any experiments carried out in Block 50?
A: I know of none. During this time I concerned myself primarily with collecting the doctors, the scientific personnel and employees for Block 50.
This was done at a conference with the illegal camp management, above all with the leaders of the foreign resistance groups, the members of which were at this time in particular danger in the camp.
Q: When you say the camp management, you mean the illegal camp management. How did you become to be Ding's deputy in Block 50?
A: On the request of the illegal camp management, and the foreign political prisoners 1 was interested in becoming Ding's deputy in Block 50, because Block 50 offered a good possibility for helping many prisoners because their work would be regarded by the SS as so important that they would be classified as essential.
Q: I shall now put Kirchheimer's testimony to you; it is on page 1324 of the English transcript. Kirchheimer said: Ding's deputy was Hoven, What do you have to say about that?
A: It was known that I had accommodated a large number of prisoners who were in danger in Block 46. Also, months before Block 50 was opened, I was looking around for the prisoners who were to work in Block 50. When Kirchheimer says I was Ding's deputy, he certainly must be referring to Block 50, that is as deputy in Block 50. The only reason I or any of the prisoners had anything to do with Block 46 was to use these two blocks — 46 and 50 — as asylums, I did not have to tell any prisoner at this time that I knew nothing about typhus, and that I had nothing to do with the experiments. Only today I have to make these statements. Every one in the camp knew that, and that I accommodated prisoners in danger in Block 46 and 50, and that fact was known in interested circles at that time; and today I don't see it could have been any different.
Q: Were experiments carried out during Ding's absence?
A: I never carried any experiments out during Ding's absence.
Q: Did you ever concern yourself, as a doctor, with typhus?
A: No. It was in this trial that I ever heard any more precise information about typhus. Before the trial I had never concerned myself with typhus at all.
Q: In your opinion, what knowledge is necessary for a person to be able to carry out typhus experiments?
A: Well, at least specialized training in typhus and hygiene.
Q: Do you have such training?
A: No.
Q: Did you send any reports to any offices on typhus experiments?
A: No.
Q: On page 1202 of the English transcript Dr. Kogon has stated that Dr. Ding did not begin — could not begin any series of experiments in Block 46 without a formal order from a higher office. Did you ever receive such orders?
A: No.
Q: Did you know the defendant Genzken?
A: No, never saw him before this proceedings.
Q: Who appointed you Ding's deputy in Block 50?
A: It was on orders of Grawitz, in agreement with Dr. Lolling, that I became his deputy in Block 50.
Q: Were you specifically designated as Ding's deputy for Block 50?
A: I was never appointed for anything except Block 50?
Q: I shall now put to you Document NO-257, Prosecution Exhibit 283, page 11, in Document Book XII. This is Ding's affidavit. In this affidavit, Ding said the following:
My presence in Buchenwald lasted always only a few days while the time of the experiments and the length of the typhus epidemic lasted about ten weeks.
Is that correct?
A: It is incorrect that Ding was present only for a few days at a time in Buchenwald; on the contrary, he was about absent for a very few days when he went on official trips. Ho was, at any rate, in Buchenwald as long as the experiments went on. Moreover, he never instructed me or any other doctors to have anything to do with these experiments.
Q: Ding also said:
Dr. Hoven had the orders, also had the duty of making those prisoners who were selected by the RSHA available for the prophylactic vaccination preceding the experiments.
A: No, those statements of Ding's are not correct, because neither the chief of the concentration camp or the WVHA could have issued orders of that sort at that time. As I have already said, I only interceded on requests from the foreign political prisoners in order to prevent such prisoners being used for such experiments.
Q: Is it true, as Ding said, that for the yellow fever experiments that two to three hundred volunteers stood in readiness?
A: I know that for Ding's experiments volunteers did apply, but just what experiments of Ding's they were, I do not know.
Q: In this affidavit Ding further says:
In the year 1942 he had to work a lot by himself since I contracted typhus, and after that was sent to a rest home. Right after that I had a detail to the Pasteur Institution in Paris, During this time the sick reports carried the signature of Hoven or Plaza —
This is on page 12.
A: From the diary it can be seen that during Ding's sickness with typhus there were no typhus experiments carried out at all. The same is true for the time when he was detailed to the Pasteur Institute in Paris. From this it can be seen there was no opportunity for any sort of independent work, entirely aside from the fact that, for the reasons already mentioned, I was in no position to work independently.
Q: Which of the defendants did you know before the Began?
A: Professor Mrugowsky I met six or seven days before the Gestapo arrested me in Weimar. Ding had invited my wife and myself to his home in Weimar. Mrugowsky and Ding were present. There was no discussion of typhus at that time. The invitation lasted for, roughly, half an hour. That was the first time I saw Mrugowsky and spoke with him. With the other twenty-one defendants I had neither officially or privately anything to do. I saw them for the first time in the dock here.
Q: Did you have any connection with firms whose vaccines were tested in Buchenwald?
A: No.
Q: Did you maintain any connection with the institute in Cracow?
A: No.
Q: I shall put to you Document 1305, Exhibit 469. This is a letter of 5 January 1943 from the Behring Works stating that yellow fever vaccine will Be sent. In this letter it says, and I quote verbatim:
We ask for information whether we should send this shipment to Hoven in Buchenwald to the old address.
Does this letter not contradict your statement that you had no connection with firms?
A: Ding never gave in his letters the address of the persons sending the letter as the experimental station But he gave the "Camp of Buchenwald" simply. Any letters—
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document Book and page where this can Be found?
DR. GAWLIK: That document was put in by prosecution during the examination of the defendant Mrugowsky. Consequently, it is in no document book. It was put in while Mrugowsky was being cross-examined Document 1305, Exhibit 469.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand.
A: Consequently, all letters or packages from this firm were sent to the address of the firm which Ding had put on as the doctor's address and as soon as their contents would be ascertained they were sent to Block 46.
You can see very clearly from this letter that Ding is being asked what address the package should be sent to. In other words, he will get in touch with the person who is really going to receive the package, and that is what the firm is doing, asking him for an address, nothing more, to which the packages or letters or whatever it is should be sent. Oral or written instructions from Ding must have previously been sent to this firm which apparently were not quite clear so the firm is again asking for clear instructions as to how the stuff is to be addressed.
Q: In this connection, Mr. President, from Document Book Hoven No. 1 I put in as Exhibit HO-1 Document No. 1, which is an affidavit by Arthur Dietzsch of 3 April 1947, pages 1 to 4 in the document book.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not yet been furnished with these document books. Are they on the secretary's desk?
DR. GAWLIK: They have been ready for about two weeks, Your Honor. I am sure the Secretary General has copies of them.
THE PRESIDENT: We see the Secretary has gone to investigate the matter. I think the book will be here eventually. Proceed.
DR. GAWLIK: This document is on pages 1 to 4 of the English document book. Number 12 of this affidavit reads:
I show you Document NO 1305. Why was the yellow fever infection serum sent to Dr. Hoven?
This was done for two reasons:
1. Block 46 had no mail communication at all. All parcels for Block 46 went by way of the camp physician until the setting up of Block 50 in 1943.
2. It was desired that the outside world should not know that an experimental station existed in Buchenwald camp.
Then the affiant describes exactly what the policy was in the camp.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: Were you at the third military medical conference?
A: No.
Q: Did Dr. Ding tell you about his encounter with Dr. Rose at this third military medical conference?
A: No, I heard about this conference the first time here in the courtroom.
Q: Did you give Ding any of the data he needed for reading his paper?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever receive any orders from the defendant Mrugowsky?
A: I cannot remember that I ever did.
Q: I shall again put Ding's diary to you again, Document 265, Exhibit 287, also Document NO 571, Exhibit 285. On 27 August 1943 Ding visited the Zeiss firm in Jena, the Land Industrial Office, and the university clinic. This is page 18 of the English document book. It sets forth, according to the diary, on 27 August 1943, 70 experimental subjects were inoculated, This is on page 47 of the English document book. Did you carry out these experiments?
A: No, I never carried out any experiments.
Q: Who did?
A: I don't know.
Q: Wasn't it your job to take charge of these experiments because Ding was absent on that day?
A: Nobody, not even Dr. Ding, ever commissioned me to carry out any experiments in Block 46.
Q: You don't know what the situation at Buchenwald was?
A: On 27 August 1943 Ding could have done the experiments and then later in the same day he could have gone to Jena. It was easy to reach Jena from Buchenwald in 45 minutes. Morever, you have to take into consideration the position that Dietzsch occupied in Block 46. Balachowsky has described it correctly. At Block 46 Dietzsch worked entirely independently.
Q: I now put Balachowsky's testimony to you. This is Document NO 484, Exhibit 291, page 61 of Document Book 12, Number 9. Balachowsky said in this affidavit:
If the scientific direction of Block 46 was in charge of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer [Major] von Schuler-Ding, all the practical execution of the experiments was entrusted to the Kapo of Block 46, the German political internee Arthur Dietzsch, residing at present at Detmold in the British zone.
Is that testimony correct?
A: It can clearly be seen from this that I had nothing to do with the experiments in Block 46. Balachowsky describes the situation in Block 46 in such detail that if I had played a part there, he would certainly have not forgotten me, but he didn't mention me.
DR. NELTE (Counsel for the Defendant Handloser): I ask that it be made clear from what time on Balachowsky was in the camp so that it will be known from what time on he knows what the situation was in the camp. This is of some importance in the Rose case, and the Handloser case.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: Please continue, witness.
A: It can be seen particularly from what he says here that the Kapo Arthur Dietzsch was the man who is running things. So that it wasn't at all necessary when Ding-Schuler was absent for a camp doctor to become active.
Q: Did you ever take part in the actual carrying out of the experiments?
A: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, does the document to which you refer contain the information concerning which Dr. Nelte spoke a moment ago? I didn't gather from what he said whether that information was in the same document or not.
MR. HARDY: Can't Dr. Nelte bring out this information in the course of his examination of the defendant?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but while the document is being used, those dates might well be put in the record. It might save time later on. Have you those dates, counsel, contained in this document? Do you know, Dr. Nelte, where those dates are in the document?
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 59 in the English copy.
Deported on 16 January 1939 to Buchenwald, sent on 10 February to the Dora tunnel. Brought back to Buchenwald on 1 May 1939 in order work in Block 50.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: Dr. Hoven, do you think that Balachowsky is in a position to make statements about the situation at Buchenwald before that time in view of conversations that he may have had with other prisoners?
A: I don't know Balachowsky. Let me take a look first. After I was released by the Gestapo in 1945, I visited my previous prisoners in the camp, and it does seem to me I can remember the name Balachowsky. It can be that he was introduced to me, but I can't say for sure. At any rate, he was a collaborator of Dr. Ding-Schuler. There was a Dr. van der Lingen, if I remember, and then Henry Pieck, then Jan Rupert of the Dutch Resistance Movement; and he must have been a friend of one of these. Consequently, he really should know enough to be able to make statements.
Q: You know the situation in the camp Buchenwald, and then you can express an opinion on this: If someone gets to Block 50 only in 1944 and there associates with prisoners in Block 46, can he make statements about the time that proceeded?
A: Yes, he certainly can because, as I said, he is a doctor from the Pasteur Institute in Paris and he had touch with the main resistance loaders in the camp, and this was the best informed circle in the camp. Roberre Pieck and van der Lingen, and so on, all belonged to the resistance movement; and they had more information about the things in general than anybody else in the camp.
Q: Thank you very much. Did you ever do any injecting or infecting in Block 46?
A: I wish to use very precise terminology here. In Block 46 I never had a hypodermic needle or an occultation lancet in my hand.
Q: You heard the testimony of the witness Kirchheimer that you never made an injection? That is page 1341 of the English transcript.
A: That is the prosecution witness?
Q: Yes, it is.
A: What he says is true.
Q: He also stated that you never had a vaccinating lancet in your hand —
MR. HARDY: Did that translation come through clearly in connection with the testimony of Kirchheimer? Would he repeat his answer? As I understand it, he accepts the testimony of Kirschheimer as true, is that correct?
A: Kirschheimer said, did he not, that I never had a vaccinating lancet in my hand? That is correct.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: If you had, Kirchheimer must have been able to see it, mustn't he?
A: If he hadn't seen it himself, he certainly would have found out about it.
Q: Why, what are the reasons why he must have found out about it?
A: The nurses discussed everything that went on in Block 46 among themselves; and if I had had a hypodermic needle or a vaccinating lancet in my hand, Kirschheimer would have found out about it on the same day.
DR. GAWLIK: Herbert Buhlick has made an affidavit which I will put in now. 26 April 1947. Document Hoven, No. 3, Exhibit Number 2, pages 14 and 15 of the Hoven Document Book. This affidavit of Buhlick says, first of all, and I quote:
Following the experiment with lice, I, with nine other prisoners as mediums, had a 2 com intravenous injection of typhus without vaccination.
On page 40 of the document Book 12, you will find a document that has something to do with this testimony. At the end of 1942 Buhlick was in Block 46 where he was working until the end of '44 he says:
I was in Block 46 the whole time and even slept there. I always visited the other sick wards too where I was not employed as a nurse. Besides I came into contact daily with the nurses of these other wards; on these occasions we talked about what went on there.
I do not know Dr. Hoven at all. I only know a Dr. Ding, who was chief of Block 46. I saw that all the injections were given by Kapo Artur Dietzsch whom we called the 'old one'. I also heard from the other nurses in Block 46 that all the injections were given by Kapo Artur Dietzsch. I know that Dr. Hoven was working in the camp hospital. But in the course of my activities in Block 46 I have never heard that Dr. Hoven gave any kind of injection. I would certainly have been told by the other nurses if Dr. Hoven had given typhus injections to experimental persons in one of the sick wards where I was not working as a handyman. Such an event would have been the topic of the day amongst the nurses. Also I could not have failed to notice if Dr. Hoven had visited the sick wards, In virtue of my observations while working in Block 46, I must say that Kapo Dietzsch worked quite independently in the absence of Dr. Ding. Ho gave all the orders and also carried out the experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, due to the fact I did not have the Hoven Document Book when you offered your first exhibit, will you please tell me what document was offered as your first exhibit so I might note it on this?
DR. GAWLIK: Exhibit No. 1 was Artur Dietzsch's affidavit of 3 April 1947, Document No. 1, page No. 1 to 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Now is the time for the afternoon recess. I wish to ask Dr. Steinbauer, counsel for defendant Beiglboeck, and the prosecuting attorney in connection with this exhibit which was marked Exhibit 23 just before the noon recess, I am not clear and I don't know if the record is clear whether that exhibit was actually offered in evidence.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it bears Exhibit Number 23 which apparently has slipped my view because I didn't know that it had ever been offered as an exhibit. That is the weight chart, is it, that was drawn up by the defendant Beiglboeck himself, and I objected to it, and it is my understanding that Dr. Steinbauer is withdrawing it from evidence.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, that is so.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, is that correct?
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I withdrew the document because I wished to put in another list which contains not only the initial and concluding weights, but includes also the weights in between so that from these charts it will be possible to follow exactly the course that each case took. Also, the Doctor will indicate in these tables when any case drank water.
THE PRESIDENT: That is sufficient explanation for my understanding, but I was not sure that, as the recording system had ceased to work at that time, I wasn't sure that the record was clear, so the offer was withdrawn for this exhibit.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(Recess was taken.)