1947-06-23, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, I ask that the Tribunal excuse the defendant Pokorny from attending this afternoon's session so that he may prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of the counsel for the defendant Pokorny, the defendant will be excused from attendance before the Tribunal at this afternoon's session in order that he may consult with his counsel in preparation for his defense.
You will return to the secretary the original affidavit and the photostat copy. Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: When did you see what the affidavit that you had signed really meant?
A: I saw its precise meaning when it was read into the record. Counsel, I should like to state that on Saturday when the Tribunal asked me to pick out the specific words that I had not known the meaning of, I interpreted that task very strictly, and chose only those words the meaning of which I had not known at that time, and those regarding which I felt any doubt at all, I assumed that I did know the meaning.
Q: Now, you said here that you didn't know the meaning of the word "affidavit". Did you then know what significance this paper that you signed had?
A: I don't believe I knew very well what I was signing, otherwise I should have had it put to me in German.
Q: You have now stated in paragraph number 6, in the second sentence, that you didn't know the meaning of the word "frequently". What you wanted to say was "I discussed the problems with Ding," or rather as it stands in the document, "I frequently discussed matters with Ding."
A: Yes, that is so. It is true that I did not discuss these things frequently with Ding because Ding very soon saw that I didn't know very much about them, nor did they interest me.
Q: What do you have to say about the next sentence. It also says in that same sentence we just mentioned, under number 6, that you visited his experimental station from time to time.
A: Yes, that is so, I did that. Frequently I visited the experimental station.
Q: What was the purpose of these visits?
A: My workshops were there. Moreover, I inquired as to the welfare of the prisoners who were accommodated there.
Q: Please take a look at number 8, which concerns itself with the selection of inmates for the experiments, and please describe now what your activities were in the selection of the experimental subjects.
A: You mean I shouldn't correct the errors in this point 8? I shouldn't discuss this paragraph number 8?
Q: Yes, of course, you should and set the matter straight.
A: The Gestapo did not or the camp leaders undertake the selection of the experimental subjects. One day a representative of the foreign political prisoners came to me and I was told that there were political prisoners among the experimental subjects. They asked me to see to it that these persons should not be used in the experiments. I think there were two or three prisoners in question. I then went to the SS office, I don't know whether this was the Camp Commandant or the Gestapo Department. I went to whichever it was. I went to the SS man who had the list of intended experimental subjects and told him that these foreigners, in other words, these prisoners in question were not really suitable subjects.
Q: Is it true that because No, 8 contains a lot of words you don't know that it here says something you didn't mean to say at all?
A: That is so, but aside from that I had the feeling that the interrogator or the translator did not understand me correctly or did not translate correctly because I never said I selected the prisoners. I did say that the prisoners had asked me to intercede.
Q: Now take a look at the sentence that has Schober's name in it and tell us what was his activity precisely?
A: It was Schober who wanted to include the political prisoners in the experiments. He was inclined to cross, it says here, he wanted to eliminate the political prisoners from the list and put in professional prisoners and criminals but it was just the opposite what he did.
Q: Please take a look now at No. 2. To what extent is No. 2 actually erroneous and to what extent does it need further elucidation?
A: In October 1939 I became assistant medical officer in the SS hospital but in the Buchenwald concentration camp that is not quite correct because the SS hospital had nothing to do with the concentration camp.
Q: What should be differentiated between here?
A: The concentration camp is to be kept separate from everything that existed outside of the protective custody camp.
Q: Where was the SS hospital?
A: It was outside.
Q: And as Assistant Medical Officer in the SS hospital whom did you have to treat?
A: The SS guards.
Q: And did you have anything to do with the concentration camp?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever enter the so-called protective custody camp?
A: No, no one could, because you needed a special pass to do that and only the camp doctors had it.
Q: Now take a look at No. 3. To what extent does No. 3 need to be explained or corrected?
A: The same is true here.
Due to my various positions in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp during this period of nearly four years I became acquainted with all phases of the medical activities therein and am hereby able to make the following statement.
That is not true, four years, it began in January 1941.
Q: And when did it end?
A: On the 12th day of December, 1943.
Q: What did you become then?
A: Then I was taken prisoner by the Gestapo.
Q: I come to another point now, other experiments, did you know that in Block 46 experiments were being carried out with yellow fever, paratyphoid, A and B, typhoid, diphtheria, small pox and so forth?
A: No.
Q: The witness Kirchheimer testified here, page 1325 in the English Transcript, that in Block 46 there were also experiments with yellow fever?
A: Of that I know nothing.
Q: I shall put document No. 571 to you, Exhibit 285, page 13, correction, page 14, document book 12. These are only reports. From the entries of 10 January and 24 March you can see that other experiments were carried out in Buchenwald. Did you in any way participate in the yellow fever experiments carried out on 425 experimental persons?
A: No.
Q: Did you hear anything about those experiments?
A: No.
Q: Did you select any of the subjects?
A: No.
Q: Who did?
A: I cannot tell you of my own knowledge.
Q: Who carried out the experiments?
A: I assume it was Dr. Ding.
Q: Did you carry out experiments in typhoid and paratyphoid?
A: No.
Q: Did you select the subject for them?
A: No.
Q: You know Exhibit No. 265, Ding's diary, did you see this diary during your activities in Buchenwald?
A: I did not know the thing existed.
Q: When did you first see it?
A: During this trial.
Q: Was one of the experiments mentioned here carried out by you?
A: Not one.
Q: According to this diary, page page 48, document book No. 12, from the 19 to 25th November, 1943, four persons were experimented on with incendiary bombs. Where were you during that time?
A: I was under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q: According to the diary there were also two poison experiments carried out. Where were you at that time?
A: At that time I was also under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q: Did you take part in the phosphorous incendiary bomb experiments?
A: No.
Q: According to Kogon these experiments were carried out in the spring of 1944. Where were you then?
A: Also under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q: I shall put No. 571 to you, exhibit 285, page 15, in the document book 12. According to this document a gangrene experiment was carried out on 15 experimental subjects on the 8th of November. Where were you then?
A: In the Gestapo jail.
Q: How about the blood plasma experiments which Kogon says here were carried out in January, 1944. Where were you then?
A: Under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q: What do you know about the transfer of blood experiments?
A: Nothing, because I was in the Gestapo jail at that time.
Q: Do you know Dr. Rose?
A: I know Rose was in Buchenwald but I cannot recall ever having seen him there.
Q: Were you the doctor who conducted Rose through the experimental station?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever participate in any way in the experiments in Sachsenhausen which took place on the 26 October, 1944?
A: No, I was in the Gestapo jail at the time.
Q: Did you cooperate in Vernet's experiments?
A: No.
Q: Where were you when they were being carried out?
A: In the Gestapo jail.
Q: Did you have anything to do with the Ellenbeck experiments?
A: No, I was at that time in the Gestapo jail.
Q: Mr. President, as my next document I shall put in the affidavit by Reinhold Schittenhelm, it is Hoven document No. 14, pages 16 and 17 of the English document book, to attest to the credibility of this affidavit and to prove Schittenhelm has the necessary knowledge I direct your attention to the first paragraph of the affidavit. Let me point out Schittenhelm is a French citizen who was arrested for espionage in 1940 in France and was placed before a German court martial, Exhibit No. 3, your Honor, and that from January 1943 until his liberation by the United States Army was an inmate in the concentration camp. In other words this man is a person who would have no inducement to protect an SS doctor.
This French citizen, Reinhold Schittenhelm, says under No. 1, to which I draw your particular attention:
The experimental persons for Block 43 were not picked and decided upon by Dr. Hoven but by the prisoner's Camp management. I can affirm to this for the period since January 1943. At least once every week the senior block inmates were called to the office. The senior block inmates then decided which prisoners in Block 46 were to be used for experimental purposes.
From the next paragraphs it can be seen how the affiant has this knowledge.
Then as my next exhibit I out in the affidavit by Heinz Schaeuble. This is Hoven Document No, 19 and this will be Exhibit No. 4. This is in the Supplementary Volume.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I don't have the Supplementary Volume at my disposal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Supplement was furnished to the Tribunal Saturday. There must be a copy available for you.
MR. HARDY: I have one now, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q: To prove the credibility of this person and to prove that he has the necessary knowledge for answering the question I point out that Schaeuble from 11 of December 1939 until 1 October 1943 was an inmate in the Concentration Camp Buchenwald. He says under No. 1:
I knew that persons used in medical experiments were not selected by Dr. Hoven but by the SS-camp-management.
My knowledge is based on the following personal experience:
In February 1943 I was selected by the SS-camp-management as a subject for medical experiments. I presume that the for which I had been chosen was to be carried through in block 46.
It was Dr. Hoven's doing that they were prevented from carrying out this experiment on me.
This is to prove that Hoven kept persons other than betrayers and stool pigeons from being used in the experiments. Nos. 2, 3, 4, and 5 describe Hoven's general reputation and good character. Please let me say in this connection that I consider this material and refer particularly to Winthrop's Military Law and Precedence, page 350. This proves that it is improbable that Hoven did what he is charged with.
I come now to 14-F-13 action. Did you know of it?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you first hoar of the action 14-F-13?
A: At the end of 1941.
Q: Who told you about it?
A: The camp commander at that time of Buchenwald, Koch.
Q: What was his reason for doing so?
A: Koch called all the heads of departments to him and told them about the 14-F-13 action.
Q: Were you then head of a department?
A: No.
Q: Who was?
A: My boss at the time, Dr. Max Blancke.
Q: Who else participated in this discussion?
A: The chief of the Gestapo department, the work assignment leader, the chief of gardening and construction.
Q: Why did you participate in this discussion?
A: I can't say for what precise reasons Dr. Blancke took me to this discussion. At any rate on this occasion Koch told us of the proposed action 14-F-13.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said that in the next few days a commission of doctors would come from Berlin to Buchenwald. This commission of doctors would seek out the cripples and the mentally ill. Moreover all Jewish inmates here at Buchenwald were to be included. These prisoners were then to be assigned to various transports and killed. Where this was to take place was not made known.
Q: How many 14F13 actions were carried out at Buchenwald?
A: While I was active there only one.
Q: I put to you the fact that the witness Mennicke has testified that twice, namely in the autumn of 1940 and the autumn of 1941, he was in Buchenwald. This is page 1883 of the English record. What do you have to say about that?
A: Whether he was in Buchenwald in the autumn of 1940 I do not know since at that time I had nothing to do with concentration camps but was assistant doctor for the camp doctor. But, I do know that at the end of 1941 a commission of doctors was in Buchenwald to carry out the 14F13 order.
Q: Did you bring about the filling out of any questionnaires for the carrying out of this action 14F13?
A: No.
Q: Were any questionnaires for 14F13 ever sent to you?
A: No.
Q: Did you select prisoners for the 14F13 action?
A: No.
Q: Dr. Kogon said that the 14F13 action was done through the prisoners' hospital. This is page 1211 of the English transcript. What do you have to say about that?
A: I don't believe that at that time Kogon knew anything precise at all about this action because the only person who told the prisoners anything about this action was I. I told the leaders of the illegal camp management and a few liaison men of the Jews whom I was in steady touch with.
And, I told my secretary Rudolf Gottschalk. For two reasons these persons told no one else about the action. First, because they would have more than endangered their lives and secondly because they knew it would mean my certain death because there was a secret order from Himmler that whoever informed a third person of the 14-F-13 action was to be shot within 24 hours. For all these reasons Kogon could not have known about that action at that time. Aside from the SS officers who attended that conference no one from the SS either knew anything about the action because this special security order of Himmler kept the 14-F-13 action strictly secret. Moreover Mennecke knew more about this than Kogon. While Mennecke was in Buchenwald he drew up a detailed written report of his activities in Buchenwald and sent it to his wife. In this letter he said nothing to the effect that his work had been supported by me or by any other doctor or any prisoner nurse. In view of the detailed manner in which he described his activities in Buchenwald he certainly would have mentioned a fact of such importance as that.
Q: I have just been told that apparently a mistake has been made by the interpreter. You said that at the end of 1940 you were assistant doctor with the troops, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: That was translated as assistant to the camp doctor.
A: There is a great difference there.
Q: Perhaps you had better explain that difference.
A: The assistant to the camp doctor is an assistant to the camp doctor, namely the concentration camp doctor. I was assistant doctor for the troop doctor, the man who treated the SS troops and units.
Q: Do you know Dr. Mennicke?
A: I cannot recall ever having seen Dr. Mennicke in Buchenwald.
Q: Let me out his testimony to you, page 1897 of the English record, in which he says that he greeted you once. What do you have to say about that?
A: I have no doubt that Dr. Mennicke greeted me because my boss never got to work before 10 o'clock. For that reason I believe that Mennicke's testimony here is correct and he greeted me as Dr. Blancke's representative or deputy. Officially though I had nothing to do with him. I did not meet him privately either although he was in Buchenwald for several days.
Q: Mr. President, as my next document I put in Hoven Document #6, Exhibit 5, this is page 23. This is a document that was put in in another trial here, a letter from the IVth of the Frankfort Court. The year seems to be missing from the date, but it can be seen clearly that the date is 1947. That can be seen also from the certification. I put this in to prove that the entire selection of the prisoners in Buchenwald was carried out by Dr. Mennicke alone without the assistance of no camp sectors and, particularly, without the assistance of Dr. Hoven.
I put Roemhild's testimony to you. Roemhild said that in Autumn 1941, all the Jews in Buchenwald were examined by the doctors to see whether they were capable of work and ix they were not they were sent to the political department, and in the Spring of 1943, three or four transports left. This is page 1635 of the English transcript. Is that so?
A: No, Dr. Mennicke corrected that. He also knew more. There are today only a few prisoners who know about this and Roemhild is certainly not one of them. Roemhild left the following out of consideration. The order read explicitly "All Jewish prisoners are to be taken for the 14F-13 Action." Thus, a medical examination became of Dr. Blancke would not have been necessary. Moreover, why should they be examined? The important thing was not whether the Jews could work or not, but it said there unmistakably that all Jews in Buchenwald were to be taken for this action. Mennicke has already stated that he filled out the questionnaires of this sort by the thousands, but Roemhild was only a clerk from 1943 on and cannot know of his own knowledge what he has said. He is simply reproducing a camp rumor. Four transports were to leave, but only one did.
Q: Where did it go to?
A: Subsequently, I found out from the prisoners that the transport went to Bernburg on the Saale.
Q: Why did the other three transports not go?
A: Because I, cooperating with the illegal camp management and the political prisoners and the Jews, prevented that.
Q: Tell the Tribunal how you, in cooperation with the illegal management, prevented those transports from leaving?
A: After the conference with Koch at which I first heard of the extermination action which later came to be known as 14-F-13, I immediately got in touch with the illegal camp management, particularly with the Jewish liaison men, and my secretary, and I told them of what the action 14-F-13 intended. We consulted with one another and debated what we could do to prevent this action. These discussions occupied a considerable time. In the meantime, the commission of doctors turned up. The Jewish liaison men and I agreed with the illegal camp management that part of the endangered Jews should be classified as mason's apprentices and I took the necessary measures with this in conjunction with the work assignment leader. I told him that many of the Jewish prisoners were excellent skilled laborers. As Dr. Kogon has very correctly stated, there were conferences that lasted for days and consultation with all sorts of offices. Before I could achieve really definitive measures in this direction, the order came from Berlin for the first transport. Through Czech liaison men I was able to get the transport list from the Gestapo department. We could not find out, at that time, what the destination or the transport was. I brought it about with my boss, Dr. Blancke, that all political prisoners who, on Kuschnir—Kuschnarev's incentive and the incentive of the other informers and stool-pigeons had been put on the list were to be taken from it. I lied to my chief, Dr. Blancke, and told him that these prisoners were not capable of standing the transport. He would hear nothing of any further scratchings from the list. He said they were all going to die any way, I couldn't prevent the transport from leaving altogether since I had a boss above me who, so far as the prisoners were concerned, had a basically different orientation than I did.
Only at the last minute was I told, shortly before the transport was to leave, that it was going to leave. Since I had just returned from Weimar, I found out that a nurse from the prisoners' hospital was included in the transport. After long negotiations with Dr. Blancke I succeeded in extracting this nurse from the transport. I was able to prevent the second transport's leaving altogether because I had the Jews intended for that transport assigned as mason's apprentices and, if a person couldn't so be classified, I kept this prisoner as long as the danger lasted either in some section of the hospital, or I classified them as out patients or I said that they were suspected of having typhoid. All these measures I cannot describe in detail. Dr. Kogon stated correctly, as I have already said, that there was always a tug or war which worked out to my advantage, not in the least because I was able to use the products of the oft-mentioned. illegal work shops and was able to carry out exchanges which protected the endangered Jews.
I prevented the third transport in the same way. One of my colleagues had begun a paper on the anthropological measurements of Jews, and the liaison men of the Jewish prisoners, men by the names of Kohn and Hoechster, brought this to my attention and proposed that this work should be continued officially to provide a further reason for preventing the transports. It was so done. That is to say, no one really did any work on this paper, but we had it ready at all times. Since the prisoners knew that such theses and papers were looked on favorably by the top office in Berlin, we were able, in this way, to save a great number of people.
So far as I remember now, I prevented the last transport by stating, contrary to the truth, that the Jewish prisoners were suspected of having typhoid. I must say that this plan did not originate with me but was worked out by the German political prisoners. The plan worked very well because the SS camp management had a very considerable respect for epidemics.
Finally, letters came from the WVHA saying that only Jewish prisoners could be transported who were not capable of work. The commander showed me this letter and, in the meantime, I had become the first camp physician. On my suggestion, the commander then reported to Berlin that there were no prisoners in Buchenwald who were not capable of work. This brought it about that the continual inquiries from Berlin about the transports stopped coming in. Because of these continual inquiries, it had been necessary to prevent the same transports leaving several time running.
Q: Is it then true as Dr. Kogon said on page 1273 of the English transcript, is it true that it was due to you that in the beginning of 1943 there was a large number of Jews in Buchenwald?
A: There can be no doubt about that. In addition I also mention that at about that time until my imprisonment in September 1943 there were a great number of Jews in Buchenwald. It must also be mentioned that I had classified the Jewish prisoners as apprentices and who were working as skilled laborers in the Gustlof works. These were the only Jews who had been interned in 1938, and who had managed to live until the American Army liberated them seven years later. Moreover, these were the only Jews in all the German concentration camps who had been incarcerated in 1938, and had survived, so that they could be liberated by the Americans, this fact was a miracle to the Americans as I was told by one of my interrogators. So far as the acts of 1944 and 1945 are concerned, there can be no doubt that it was the will of the Berlin office that Buchenwald was to be cleared of Jews by 1941 That this did not happen is not due solely to me. I should like to emphasize at this time that I was successful in this only because the German political prisoners did a vast amount of work risking their lives everyday. The same is true of the Czech liason men who were in the Gestapo Department, risking their lives peeking into official files which were never accessible to me. These Czech prisoners gave me a copy of the death list. On the basis of it the German political prisoners could be saved from the 14 f 13 action. Primarily though must be given to the Jewish prisoners, namely Max Hoechster, who was city architect in Frankfurt on the Main, originally, and Andre Behrens a relative of the banking house of Behrens in Hamburg, and George Warburg, a relative of the banking house of Max Hoechster, I believe in New York. These Jewish prisoners worked in the counter-action or what we called 13 f 14. They stood by me throughout and advised and helped me.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, in this connection I submit Hoven Document VII. This will be Exhibit 6. This is also a letter from another trial from the Fourth Criminal Court of Frankfurt on the Main. From this it can be seen that all Concentration camps, including Buchenwald were to be cleared of Jews. This document is to close this part of my evidence. I have found out by interrogating people that when Buchenwald was liberated there were a large number of Jews present, and I have also discovered that Dr. Hoven prevented many transports of Jews, and through this letter I wish to prove that this is something Dr. Hoven be given credit for.
MR. HARDY: I move this be stricken from the record, and counsel be instructed to examine the witness, and not to testify on behalf of the witness.
DR. GAWLIK: I simply want to explain to the Tribunal the reason I put in this document, so that this will be understandable to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Proceed.
Q: I also show you PS-1151, Exhibit 411, Document Book 16, page 18 of the English Document Book, This is the letter from the Inspector of the Concentration Camps, 12 December 1941, which was sent among others to the camp commander of Buchenwald, Did you know about this letter?
A: No.
Q: And the questionnaire forms mentioned in this letter, were they given to you by the camp commander?
A: No, but they wouldn't have been given to me anyway, because I wasn't first camp doctor at that time. If it had been given to anyone it would be given to Dr. Blancke, who was the first camp doctor.
Q: Do you know whether Dr. Blancke received such letters?
A: I don't think so, because if he had, of course, I would have found out about it also.
Q: How can you explain the fact that these questionnaires were not sent on to Dr. Blancke who was first camp doctor in Buchenwald, how can you explain that fact they weren't sent?
A: I can explain that only as follows: filling out the questionnaires was no longer required in Buchenwald. This letter is dated December 1941, however, Mennecke, as can be seen from this letter, had already been in Buchenwald at that time previously. The forms which were annexed to this letter were to be the preparation for the coming doctors' commission, but since the Commission of Doctors had already finished its work in Buchenwald and had filled out the forms itself, it was no longer necessary to send these forms out again. I assume that these forms were kept by the camp commander in Buchenwald, and not sent on to the camp doctor.
Q: Please look at the last paragraph of this letter following the completion, of the examination of the inspector of the concentration camp and to make a report in which the number of the prisoners who were directed the special treatment 14 f 13 are to be mentioned; did you make any such report.
A: No, and if there had been any such report it would have been Dr. Blancke's job, and not mine. However, I cannot recall that any such report was ever made. I think what is meant is that the camp commander should make the report to the Inspector of the concentration camp.
Q: I show to you also Document PS-1151, a letter from Amtsgruppe [Office Group] D of 26 March 1942. Page 43 of the English Document book. Do you know the contents of this letter?
A: Yes.
Q: What was done in Buchenwald as a consequence of this letter?
A: On the basis of this letter I told the camp commander that Buchenwald contained no prisoners not capable of work. Gottschalk, my first secretary draw up this letter, and I signed it and sent it to the camp commander.
It was then forwarded to Berlin. I know this for certain, because on the basis of our letter we finally had the assurance, namely the prisoners and myself, that at any rate in Buchenwald the 14 f 13 action had come to and end. Of course the joy of those who participated in our counter-action 13 f 14 was enormous. And because of this the transports wanted for 14 f 13 were abolished once and for all.
Q: Please tell the court what this 13 f 14 meant; the counteraction?
A: This was our counter-action, where I and the Czechs and Germans, and Jews took part in. It was just a pun — we named our counter-action 13 f 14.
Q: This then was a counter-action undertaken by the illegal camp commander in connection with this in Buchenwald, to keep the Action 14 f 13 from being carried out?
A: Yes, but you have forgotten the four Jewish prisoners whom I mentioned before.
Q: Now, back to this letter of 28 March 1942; how could it be ascertained whether a person was capable of work?
A: It was never ascertained at all whether the people were capable of work. Without conducting an examination, I told the camp commander they were all capable of work.
Q: I come now to Mennecke's letter to his wife, in which he says that in November of 1943 he filled out questionnaires for 1000 Jews and 300 Aryans. This letter is in the record on page 1944 of the transcript. Did you have anything to do with filling out these questionnaires?
A: No.
Q: Please turn to page 29 of the English document book. This is document 1151-PS, a letter of 16 March 1941 to the commander of the concentration camp Gross-Rosen. The prosecution asserts that this list was prepared for the commander by the camp doctor. On the basis of this document the Prosecutions claims the following and I quote:
This list simply describes what went on in the Camp Gross-Rosen. Oranienburg issued the orders that the concentration camps themselves should choose the prisoners who were to go in the transports.
The Prosecution takes the view that the selection was made by the camp doctors and the defendant Hoven took care of this in the Camp Buchenwald; now is that correct?
A: That might have been the case in Gross Rosen, but as I have already said in Buchenwald the commission of doctors came before the letter from the inspector of concentration camps, also in Buchenwald the Jews did not have to go through a preliminary physical examination by the camp doctors, because the order read specifically and therefore all Jews interned in Buchenwald were to be included in notion 14-F-13, I really could not see why a physical examination would be necessary in such a case. Dr. Mennecke expressed this very clearly, as I remember.
Then it can be seen from Mennecke's testimony that no doctor in Buchenwald supported him in his activities there. All this goes to show that the situation in Buchenwald was not the same as the situation in Gross-Rosen. I gave no support to the Doctor's Commission under the direction of Dr. Mennecke and made no preparations for them at all, nor do I know that Dr. Blancke did either.
Q: Were you in Bernburg?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: In April of 1943.
Q: Why?
A: A prisoner doctor from an outside camp told me that in this camp two prisoners died a natural death and I went there for the cremation.
Q: Did your visit to Bernburg have any connection with the action 14-F-13?
A: No, that can be seen from the fact that this visit took place one and one quarter years after the transport had left Bernburg.
Q: Whom did you speak with on your visit to Bernburg?
A: A Dr. Eberl — E-b-e-r-l.
Q: During this conversation was the action 14-F-13 discussed at all?
A: No, the conversation lasted a maximum of ten minutes. I then went out to the outlying camp where the two prisoners had died.
Q: Please turn to document book 12 again, page 1 of your affidavit, No. 9, this number concerns itself with the Euthanasia program. Kindly tell the Tribunal what sentences in here are incorrect?
A: (reading)
In accordance with these orders 300 to 400 Jewish prisoners of different nationalities were sent to the 'Euthanasia Station' at Bernburg for extermination.
Now I don't exactly remember what number I said.
Q: Well, suppose you tell us just what did happen?
A: There were about 300 Jewish and non-Jewish prisoners. It is not stated in this sentence that there were non-Jews also.
Q: What else is wrong?
A: (reading)
A few days later I received a list of the names of those Jews who were exterminated at Bernburg from the Camp Commander and was ordered to issue falsified statements of death. I obeyed this order.
Q: Then, what really did happen?
A: I think it is my fault and not the fault of the interrogator that I expressed myself unclearly. Here the statement in itself is incorrect, to be sure I did not receive the order in turn from the camp commander. For the reasons I have already given, I paid no attention and laid no importance on the signature.
Q: Who issued these death certificates?
A: The prisoners did.
Q: Whom did you discuss the matter with first; with the aforementioned four Jewish prisoners; were these four prisoners part of the illegal camp committee?
A: Yes, there were Jews on that committee, namely these four. I must also say how this came about. I could not send this back to Dr. Blancke because this was a very long and tedious work since I had to write out all the death certificates myself and then Dr. Blancke would have to write them out himself, but the Jewish prisoners who were advising me told me that I should leave the making out of death certificates up to them, because the usual death certificates were only three or four lines long, stating that on such and such a date, such and such a prisoner had died of such and such a disease.
The Jewish prisoners thought it would be better if I drew up an extensive death certificate in order not to frighten and make uneasy the person's relatives, because I remember the Jewish prisoners telling me that in the newspapers they always read announcements of death in this form and they had the feeling that the relatives would be suspicious and made unhappy by this, so instead of drawing up the death certificate myself I left that up to the prisoners to do and then signed them myself.
Q: One question to make this matter clear, to what extent does number nine render a false meaning? Please read the last sentence.
A: (reading)
I visited Bernburg on one occasion to arrange for the cremation of two inmates who died in the Wernigerode Branch of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp.
This might be construed to mean that simultaneous with the 14-F-13 action I was in Bernburg; however, that is not true, because in the beginning we did not even know that Bernburg existed.
Q: Then this trip described in this last sentence took place one and one-quarter years later and bore no connection with the 14-F-13 action?
A: That is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, it is time for the Tribunal to be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)