1947-06-24, #1: Doctors' Trial (early morning)

Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 24 June 1947, Justice Beals presiding.

THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.

THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in the court.

THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.

DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, the Tribunal inquired yesterday how long counsels would need for the further submission of its evidence. It will last roughly three and one-half to four days until all the supplementary material has been put in.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, counsel.

MR. HARDY: Your Honor, my understanding is that the defendant Pokorny will call three witnesses here.

THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel for the defendant Pokorny advise us how many witnesses he will call.

DR. HOFFMAN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, it is correct that I intend to call three witnesses.

MR. HARDY: How long does the defense counsel anticipate that the testimony of the defendant Pokorny and the testimony of the three witnesses will take?

DR. HOFFMAN: I believe two to two and one-half days.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

MR. HARDY: Then at this time we have another day for the defendant Hoven, two and one-half days for the defendant Pokorny, and approximately four days for supplemental evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: As in accordance with the statements of defense counsel.

Counsel for the defendant may proceed.

DR. WALDEMAR HOVEN — Resumed
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Hoven):

Q: Witness, you described yesterday the prerequisites for prisoners' possible release from a concentration camp. Let me ask you how it was possible for you to bring about the release of prisoners.

A: Primarily with the assistance of falsified X-ray pictures and sick records, and then through falsified papers that went through the RSHA.

BY JUDGE SEBRING:

Q: Just a moment. Witness, can you say at this time how many releases you were instrumental in bringing about from Buchenwald Concentration Camp as a result of that procedure?

A: Approximately 150. I cannot give you the exact number. It was rather more than less.

JUDGE SEBRING: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, counsel.

DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, in substantiation of the defendant's statement regarding how releases were effectuated, I direct your attention to the document I had put in, in the Hoven Document 13, Exhibit No. 10, the affidavit by Philip Dirk, Baron van Pallandt van Eerde. Turn to page 46, No. 7, in which Dirk says:

I was released on his recommendation, although, in fact, I was not sick.

In further substantiation of these statements I put in Hoven Document No. 14. This will be Hoven Exhibit 12. This is an affidavit by van der Laan, page 49 to 52. Under No. 9 on page 50 it says:

It is extremely probable that these releases were only granted owing to the false particulars which Dr. W. Hoven had forwarded to the authorities in Berlin whose duty it was to grant these petitions for release.

Paragraph 10 states:

These acts by Dr. Waldemar Hoven rendered an invaluable service to the large numbers of Dutch hostages.

Paragraph 11:

If these released hostages had been examined by another German doctor, the fraud would certainly have been discovered and the consequences for Dr. Waldemar Hoven would have been serious.

Then in Number 13 it describes the way in which he himself was released:

Dr. Waldemar Hoven visited me the same day and without making any examination whatever promised me that he would try to have my liberty restored to me. Later, an X-ray photograph of my thorax was taken and, as I myself saw, no irregularity whatever was found. About a week later I was released. This event could only have happened as a result of incorrect information given by Dr. Waldemar Hoven, who had perhaps sent an X-ray photograph of a patient suffering from tuberculosis of the lungs to Berlin.

BY DR. GAWLIK:

Q: What was the quality of the medical care in the concentration camp Buchenwald while you were there? I put to you in this connection what Roemhild testified to, who stated that the hospital was always overcrowded and that the equipment in the hospital was most inadequate. This is page 1639 of the English transcript.

A: That is incorrect. At my time, at any rate, the hospital was very well equipped, although the SS does not deserve credit for that. Without exaggeration, I can say that during the year 1941 to '43, we had more and better medicines and drugs than many civilian hospitals. When ordering medicines I always ordered thrice the necessary amount because our quota was always lower than what we asked for. At my time, at any rate, there was always enough medicine. Since I followed the same policy in the SS hospital I took a large amount of medicine that was not needed at all in the SS hospital and transferred it to the prisoners' hospital. We had the hospital enlarged and in an illegal fashion had beds brought in and showers built. With considerable difficulties I also brought it about that two additional hospital buildings were built. The number of convalescents, or out patients, which was 100 when I took over was raised by me to 600. In the individual barracks I put in so-called louse guards who had nothing to do but to see to it that the prisoners were deloused; also these men were to take any sick calls from his barracks and in this way I eliminated the black trusty from any interest in this matter. I have also told you that I used prisoners contrary to explicit orders. We had all the equipment and instruments necessary for surgery. The emergency ward was open day and night. Then, as I have already said, the Jewish station was opened up again and took care of ambulatory patients, moreover, if necessary I sent sick patients to Jena for specialized attention.

Q: Mr. President, in substantiation of these statements I put in Document Hoven No. 17, which will be Exhibit 13. This is an affid avit by Gerhard Schiedlausky, page 56.

This is an excerpt from Prosecution Document No. NO-508, which was Exhibit 135, in Tribunal Four. This is an affidavit from 7 August 1945. Schiedlausky was the successor of Dr. Hoven and stated there:

My activities began in Buchenwald on or about 15-18 October 1943.

Let me recall to the Court's attenion that it was at this time that the witness was arrested by the Gestapo.

When I took over my office, the existing facilities for treatment in the inmates hospital were adequate to operate it.

And in the last sentence:

In the hospital there were altogether 5 barracks available for taking in patients.

Roemhild has testified here that the inmates applied to you for treatment and instead they were killed. This is page 1639 of the English transcript. Is that so?

A: That is entirely impossible because the patients were received by the prisoner nurses without exception, not by me. That alone shows why it can't be true.

DR. GAWLIK: I now put in Document Hoven No. 2. This will be Hoven Exhibit No. 14. This is Rudolf Gottschalk's affidavit, page 5. Please turn first to page 5. From April 1938 until August 1932 Gottschalk was a political prisoner in Buchenwald. From the end of 1938 on he was employed in the hospital. He was sick bay clerk, laboratory assistant, male nurse, and clerk and was thus in a position to know just about everything that was to be known about the hospital. He also saw the typhus experiments and says about the typhus experiments the following:

I declare that Dr. Hoven was in no way connected with the typhus experiments which were started and the first series carried out during the time of my Buchenwald stay. It was Dr. Ding who was solely responsible for the conduct and execution of these experiments. He once boasted to Hoven in my presence that not even the camp management was in a position to interfere with his plans as regards these experiments.

He further makes statements about the selection as follows:

Originally, the persons who were used for these experiments were selected by the "political department" (Leclair, Serne and Frerichs), and further in my time Hoven could hardly be called responsible for the selection, however, the underground movement through the medium of Dr. Hoven tried to gain some influence over the selection and execution, in order to save political internees from being used as human guinea pigs by the SS.

I myself was a member of the underground movement (Walter Kraemer, Karl Peik), and I am able to certify this from my own observations.

I wish to state that only one transport was sent to the Bernburg gas chambers during the time of my stay in Buchenwald. The selection of these people and the compilation of lists were carried out by the 'political department' i.e. were made at the 'political department'.

Then he makes statements about preventing the transports:

The Bernburg deportation list did not only bear the names of Jews but also those of habitual criminals and political internees. It was a particularly hard blow to us political internees when we found out the names of several of our people who were also on the list. I mention the former Communist Landtag member Albert Kunz, who played a leading role in the underground movement, Erich Loch, who worked in the equipment storeroom and who made a special point of looking after the new arrivals, Rudi Stelzmann and many others whose names have slipped my mind. We political internees considered it our special duty to try everything in our power to save our comrades. We made use of Dr. Hoven as our camp physician. He brought us the list of the death candidates which showed us the intentions of the SS. Furthermore, Dr. Hoven told us that these political internees had been entered on the list at the instigation of Kuschnir-Kuschnarev.

Then he tells how these people were released from transport. On page 8, at the top he makes statements regarding cooperation between the witness and the illegal camp management:

Furthermore I wish to state that Dr. Hoven stood in closest cooperation to the underground movement of which I was also a member under the leadership of Walter Kraemer and Karl Peik.

After the violent death of Walter Kraemer and Karl Peik, Heinrich Weingaertner took over the leadership of the underground movement. At my instigation and with the full approval of Dr. Hoven, he was succeeded by Ernst Busse.

I put this to you to prove what a prominent role the defendant played in the resistance movement in Buchenwald.

The next paragraph discusses the saving of Poles and it is stated that he saved the life of Poles by making false statements as to the statement of health.

On page 9, Gottschalk talks about the medical care in the camp. He says:

Even though from a scientific point of view, Dr. Hoven did not exactly conform to our generally accepted idea of a physician, as a human being he tried his utmost to maintain the highest possible level with regard to sanitary conditions. In comparison with other camps, the sanitary conditions in Buchenwald were exemplary.

Then there are further statements about conditions in Buchenwald. On page 10, last paragraph, he makes statements regarding the defendant's attitude toward the Jews and says that contrary to orders of the SS camp management he treated Jewish patients.

Page 12 contains further statements regarding Hoven's cooperation with the illegal camp management. Here we find the name Dr. Horn for the Czechs and Pieck for the Dutch. This will also prove that the witnesses heard here, Dr. Horn and Pieck, had the necessary knowledge to make the statements that they did regarding the defendant's cooperation with the illegal camp management and the Committee of Political Prisoners.

As further document, I put in Fritz Rieckert's affidavit, Hoven Document 5. This will be Exhibit 15, page 18 to 22. Rieckert also, as you can see from page 18, is a former inmate of Buchenwald; from 26 September 1939 until 26 May 1945 he was a political prisoner. From 29 February 1940 until the liberation he worked in the camp hospital as prisoner clerk in the office. This shows that he has the necessary knowledge about the defendant's character and activities. On page 19 he makes statements about Dr. Horn, at the top of the page, and Pieck and says:

I consider Horn and Pieck as absolutely credible persons. This knowledge is drawn from my being together with both of them for a duration of many years.

Then he talks about the defendant's activities in Block 46. He speaks of the sending of lice and says that:

I know that Dr. Hoven had a shipment of lice exterminated because they were infected with spotted fever. At that time Dr. Hoven said to us prisoners, 'Now they have gone crazy.' At the same time Dr. Hoven expressed the apprehension that a typhus epidemic might break out as a consequence of such experiments.

Then he says what Hoven did when he went to Block 46 and tells about the illegal workshops, the shoemaker, the tailor, etc. He also says that it was Hoven's endeavor to accommodate endangered prisoners, particularly Jews, in Block 46. Jews were particularly safe in Block 46 because, as he says on page 19:

The SS could enter Block 46 only with the permission of the camp doctor.

He then speaks, on page 20, of his cooperation with the illegal camp management:

I know that Dr. Hoven collaborated in the closest way with the German Communist party section and other illegal groups inside the Buchenwald camp.

He also describes an actual incident:

In a memorial service for Thaelmann and Breitscheidt the SS Camp Command had carried out numerous arrests on account of the holding of this commemoration.

During this investigation which was carried out by the SS Dr. Hoven had maintained a connection between the individual accused prisoners and had thus exposed himself to the serious danger of getting shot. In connection with Dr. Hoven's activities, Busse said to me and to some other prisoners of the hospital, 'Waldemar—' that means Hoven '—is crazy; you could almost think he was one of our men.'

Page 21, at the top he speaks of the defendant's cooperation with foreign prisoners:

I know furthermore that Dr. Hoven also closely collaborated with Pieck and Dr. Horn. Pieck was the representative of the Dutch. Dr. Horn represented the interests of the Czech prisoners. After the liberation of the representatives of the Dutch Communist Party Pieck worked in the International Camp Committee.

He then goes on talking about Hoven's help to the prisoners:

Furthermore, Dr. Hoven frequently sheltered in his hospital prisoners which were in danger, by providing a false diagnosis; especially he took in those who were supposed to be sent away, in order to save them by doing so.

Further down:

It is known to me that Dr. Hoven prevented extermination transports; the details, however, I do not know exactly.

He also speaks about saving Poles and others, page 21.

And he concludes his whole affidavit on page 22, the last sentence:

Quite generally I can say that Dr. Hoven had done much to alleviate the prisoners' fate.

BY DR. GAWLIK:

Q: How long were you first camp doctor in Buchenwald?

A: June 1942 to 12 September 1943.

Q: In what way was your activity in Buchenwald brought to a conclusion?

A: I was arrested.

Q: Who arrested you?

A: Dr. Morgen.

Q: Who was Dr. Morgen.

A: He was a Gestapo agent who had Himmler's particular confidence, and on Himmler's orders was carrying out investigations in the camp to realize the plans that Himmler intended in the Buchenwald camp.

Q: How do you know this?

A: From conversations with Dr. Morgen.

Q: Precisely what program or plan Himmler was following in the camp, and what Dr. Morgen, the Gestapo agent, had to do with this program — this Dr. Morgen acting on Himmler's explicit orders — can be seen from Hoven Document 10 which will become Exhibit 16, page 36. This is an excerpt from a document put in in Case IV as Document NO 2331, it having received the exhibit number 517 in Case IV. This is an affidavit by Gerhard Wiebeck. He was an investigator of the Main Office of the SS Court and he says:

The concentration camp organization was, according to my experience, a system that is a system intended for the mass extermination of human life, the terrorizing of groups of political opponents and for deterring purposes. In my opinion the mixing of the political prisoners with criminals served the purpose of preventing the political prisoners from starting any opposition whatsoever. The whole system was characterized by the absolute lack of any rights on the side of the prisoners, the behavior of the SS Fuehrer assigned to the concentration camps, and the secrecy surrounding the concentration camps. By far the largest number of all killings, especially the mass extermination of human life, the ill-treatments, the third degree interrogations, the giving up of people to hunger and starvation, the experiments and other things had been ordered by the highest government offices headed by Hitler and Himmler himself.

Did Morgen pursue this goal of Himmler in his investigations in Buchenwald?

A: Yes.

Q: Why were you arrested by Morgen?

A: There were two reasons for this, first, the factual reasons, and secondly, the reasons alleged by the Gestapo. The real reason was that it was generally suspected that I was working in collaboration with the prisoners, but the reason given for my arrest was that I had killed an SS-Hauptscharfuehrer [Staff Seargent] who was involved in the Koch affair. I had nothing to do with this man Koehler, who was the man killed. Investigations were undertaken with the help of the criminal court clinic in Jena and it was proved without question that Koehler died a natural death. In the course of the investigations of this alleged murder Dr. Morgen hit on the idea, which was very humane for the Gestapo, to inject acid gastric juices from the dead man Koehler into the bodies of Russian prisoners. Since there were no reactions from this injection, because the man had not been poisoned, the prisoners did not die. Finally, when this did not avail him in his accusations of me, he accused me of being instrumental in Kuschnir-Kuschnarev's death and used two informers against me who were known as Jew slaughterers, namely, Freudemann and May.

Q: I understood you to say the following, witness. The real reason was the suspicion that you were opposing the goal that Morgen and Himmler were pursuing, namely, the extermination of the political prisoners. That's the reason, isn't it?

A: Yes.

Q: In support of this statement by the defendant I draw the Tribunal's attention to the affidavit put in by Reinhold Schittenhelm, Document No. 4, Exhibit No. 3, on page 16, where I ask you to look at the statements under No. 2:

In the summer of 1943 a transport of Jews to Auschwitz was supposed to take place. As far as I remember, the number of Jews amounted to approximately eight hundred to one thousand. I do not know who ordered the transfer. The Jews were already assembled for roll call. It was the general topic of conversation in the camp that Dr. Hoven had prevented this transportation of Jews. I know this particularly from the Jewish workmen who were laying the floor in the Gustloff Werk.

Moreover, it was generally talked about in the camp that Dr. Hoven would soon be one of us because he had prevented the transportation of the Jews.

Shortly after that Dr. Hoven was arrested by the Secret State Police in September 1943.

This man is a French citizen who was an inmate in Buchenwald.

What was the result of the investigation of you?

A: In September 1944 there was a trial before the highest SS police court. In the course of the trial it turned up that Koch accused me of cooperating with the prisoners. Then the trial was quashed for the time being so that a political trial could be instigated against me. All political trials had the same outcome. I was taken to Buchenwald as a prisoner where I stayed until the American Army liberated the camp. A few days previously I had been released and offered service in the Wehrmacht; the political developments permitted no further course.

Q: Where were you after your arrest?

A: I was taken to the Kreuznach prisoners camp.

Q: No, I mean after you were arrested by Gestapo agent Morgan?

A: I was under Gestapo arrest for one year. Then on 12 September 1944 I returned to Buchenwald as a prisoner.

Q: After your release from Gestapo arrest and from arrest in the concentration camp what were your activities then?

A: I went to the main dressing station in Weimar as a doctor until 11 April 1945.

Q: What happened then?

A: On this day I went to visit the former prisoners whom I had known five kilometers from the camp. I was captured by the Americans. I was put on a tank. The prisoners, who were riding around with the American soldiers in jeeps, saw this and reported it in Buchenwald. Then the Jewish prisoner, August Cohn, came and spoke with the commander and received permission to take me back to Buchenwald. In the meantime the SS there had been arrested by the Americans. On Cohn's request and on the request of the foreign prisoners I was taken as a guest of the concentration camp to Block 50. Two days later I was separated from the SS and put in an officers barracks.

DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. No further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions to be propounded to this witness by defense counsel?

DR. SERVATIUS: Servatius for Karl Brandt.

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q: Did you know Professor Brandt or did you see Professor Brandt in the camp?

A: I never saw Professor Brandt in Buchenwald nor before this trial had I seen him anywhere.

Q: Do you know from other sources whether he was ever in the camp?

A: I can only speak of the time when I was in Buchenwald until until September 1943.

I never heard at any time that he had been there, and in view of the position Professor Brandt had it seems unreasonable to assume he was there.

Q: I should like to ask you a question for my colleague whose client is Dr. Rose. Do you know that at the beginning of 1942 Dr. Rose visited the typhus station at Buchenwald being lead by a camp officer?

A: Yes.

Q: From what you know of the situation is it possible to find out during such a visit that the conditions prevailed in the camp such as you have here described?

A: No, that is not possible.

Q: On such a visit would not the hospital-like atmosphere in Block 46 lead one so visiting to come to the conclusion that everything was in order here?

A: I saw the hospital equipment in Block 46 only twice myself, but so far as I know the equipment there was perfectly in order.

DR. MERKEL: Merkel for Genzken.

BY DR. MERKEL:

Q: Dr. Hoven, in your affidavit of 24 October 1946, Document No 429, Prosecution Exhibit 281, page 2, Document Book 12 you say inter alias that at the beginning of this typhus experiment Ding had lots of conversation with Genzken in Berlin, and you say Genzken was particularly interested in this matter and Ding sent him various reports. How do you know all this?

A: From Dr. Ding.

Q: You then are simply reiterating what Ding told you?

A: Yes. That is so and I said so during my interrogation.

Q: You are not here reporting facts of your own personal knowledge.

A: No, I didn't know Genzken at all.

Q: In the same document you said that Genzken in January 1943 ordered the experimental station to be enlarged, what do you mean by "enlarged"?

A: I wished to refer to Ding's sphere of activities which was to be enlarged and also the production plant for vaccines. That was what the order for enlargement referred to.

Q: Then Ding's sphere of activities was to be extended by setting up a production center for vaccines in Block 50?

A: Yes.

Q: It was then affiliated to the hygiene institute?

A: Yes, that is what I mean.

DR. MERKEL: Thank you. No further questions.

DR. FLEMMING: Flemming for Mrugowsky.

BY DR. FLEMMING:

Q: Dr. Hoven, in your affidavit which was just mentioned, Document No-429, Exhibit 281, you said that the channels of command for Ding would have been "Grawitz, Genzkin, Mrugoswky and Ding;" to what activities of Ding's were you referring to when you made this statement?

A: To his activities in Block 50. That is the only contact I had with him.

Q: What do you know about Ding's personal relations with Grawitz?

A: Ding was a friend of Grawitz. He always liked to make friends among such important people. I know that he once told me proudly, this was in 1942, that Grawitz, on the occasion of the birth of Ding's daughter, made his automobile available to Ding's wife. Then Grawitz had some book that dealt with his work in the Red Cross and he drew up a one page long dedication to Ding.

Q: While you were in Buchenwald how often did Professor Gildemeister visit there?

A: Four or five times.

Q: During the time you were in Buchenwald?

A: Yes.

DR. FLEMMING: Thank you, No further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions to the witness by defense counsel?

There being none the Prosecution may cross-examine.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Dr. Hoven, during the course of your time in the United States in the early 1920's you stated that you were an agricultural inspector would you be more specific and tell us just what you mean by that title?

A: Yes, I was on a dairy farm in New Jersey, the farm being owned by an acquaintance of my friend near Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Q: What were your duties as agricultural inspector?

A: I worked there.

Q: Did you have to make out reports?

A: No.

Q: Did you have to know the English language at all?

A: The owner had been a German immigrant and I spoke mostly German in the family.

Q: I see. Then you were actually merely a farm hand, you worked around the farm?

A: No, I was an inspector. I can only give you the expression that was used there, as I remember, namely I was called "boss".

Q: When were you drafted into the Waffen SS, Dr. Hoven?

A: 28 August 1939. That is when I received my drafting order.

Q: At that time were men being drafted into the Waffen SS direct, or was that your draft order for the Wehrmacht?

A: I was drafted directly into the Waffen SS. I think I received an order from the regional induction office. That was a printed form and at the top it says on such and such a date you are to report, etc.

Q: You didn't have any alternative? It is my understanding the draft into the Waffen SS didn't start until a much later date, that on this date, August 1939, it was called selective service or whatever it is in Germany, had the alternative to go into various branched of the Luftwaffe; did you choose to go into the Waffen-SS, rather than the Luftwaffe or the Army or the Navy?

A: I would have preferred the Army and Navy to the Waffen SS, but this was a military order given in the same terms as the Wehrmacht orders. As I said, this came from the Regional Induction Office and I had no choice of any branch of the service.

Q: Now, Doctor, I want you to attempt to recall the interrogations of last October, wherein you and I drafted up this affidavit document, No. 429, which is at considerable issue here during the presentation of your case. Do you recall on the 22nd day of October, 1946 that you were called to an interrogation and at such interrogation Mr. DeVrie and I were present?

A: Yes, I remember. Shall I use the English document book here or the German?

Q: Yes, you might use the English, Dr. Hoven.

Now at that particular date, the 22nd October, 1946, you were asked if you could speak English; is that correct?

A: By you?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes, I said that I could more or less carry on a conversation.

Q: And then were you told that we would talk in English during that interrogation and if you did not understand anything just to let us know and we would try to clarify it in German?

A: It was not quite that way. You were good enough to ask me whether it would be alright if we talked in English, I said O.K., and tried to carry on some conversation in English. You then asked me a few questions which I answered in English, and then we breached questions which concerned my activities or matters which you wanted to know about. We both saw then that we could not continue in this way and from then on we both made use of the services of the interpreter.

From then on, I spoke a mixture of German and English.

Q: That is right, whenever you were confused I always had the interpreter explain it to you in German; did I not?

A: This was not an interpreter, it was Mr. DeVrie, who was an interrogator.

Q: Well, we were using him as an interpreter?

A: That is so, yes.

Q: Now, when the interrogation first began we ran over generally the activities and conditions at Buchenwald; did we not?

A: Yes.

Q: After having covered the conditions generally, did I not then inform you that I had drawn up a draft in the form of an affidavit and that I desired that we go through each section of the affidavit to determine its correctness and truthfulness and at the completion thereof, I would like to have you sign the affidavit for me; is that correct?

A: I can tell you that in much greater detail, Mr. Hardy.

Q: Just a moment, Doctor. I will read you the question as I put it to you at that time and see if that refreshes your recollection so that we can be brief here. After we had discussed the various details, I said to you:

I will go over this in detail with you. I want to get you to verify these facts for us. We will check these facts; that is in the form of an affidavit. I want to go over each section of the affidavit. If it is true, I would like to have you sign this affidavit for me.

And you answered "Yes;" do you remember that?

A: Yes, but then you did not do that, you were called away.

Q: Just a moment. Doctor, I have the interrogation here, which will refresh your recollection.

Then, Doctor, I proceeded to go through various sections of the affidavit with you in person. I went through paragraph 1 of the affidavit pertaining to your biographical data and you answered specific questions there and you said to the first question, I read the first sentence of the affidavit:

I, WALDEMAR HOVEN, being duly sworn, depose and state:

1. I was born in Freiburg in Breisgau on the 10th of February 1903.

Your answer: "That is right."

I took up each sentence in that paragraph with you; did I not?

A: No.

Q: Is it going to be necessary for me to read each sentence?

A: No, we do not have to so burden the Tribunal's time. I can make perfectly clear what I am referring to Mr. Hardy. What you are now saying is that you twice interrogated me. Once you said that in regard to this affidavit I did not understand at the moment. At any rate, it was a summary. You said explicitly that Mr. DeVrie would go through it with you and by the next day it would be in order. That must be in the record.

Q: Let us go over it now by questions. I don't want to go over each point in rebuttal. I will go over in the full transcript of the interrogation which is found as rebuttal evidence in the Prosecution Document Book. At this time I want to refresh the memory of the defendant on certain incidents which happened during the interrogation.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed.

BY MR. HARDY:

Q: Now, you will recall, Doctor, that after I had discussed the first two paragraphs with you, I stated or reread paragraph 3, which is now the paragraph contained in Document NO-429; in that I said:

Now, due to these various positions in Buchenwald during this period of four years that you were there, not quite four years, but nearly four years, you became acquainted with all the phases of the medical activities that went on at Buchenwald; now, therefore, you are able to make these statements?

Referring to the Draft, and you stated, "Yes."

Do you recall that I stated to you, "I want you to correct me when I read if the facts are not correct," and you answered, "I understand you."

A: You mean when you were reading the English?

Q: That is correct.

A: Yes and as I said I certainly over evaluated my knowledge of the English language in paragraph 6, I think —

Q: Just a moment, Doctor, we will get to paragraph 6. You did, did you not, when I told you would have the opportunity to correct anything that I read that you thought would be incorrect; and I did tell you that in the interrogation; did I not?

A: That may be, yes, I don't remember it though. At any rate at that time I did not know who you were or what was going on. You were very friendly and gracious to me, but I really did not know what was cooking. I did not know this was an official thing of some sort, but when somebody is very friendly and nice to me, I also make in the form of a conversation statements which are not as exact as the statements one would make when making an affidavit. If I had known I was deposing an affidavit in this conversation I certainly would have had it given to me in German translation and would have thought about it for a day.

It is perfectly true that your personality made an enormous impression on me.

Q: You saved me a considerable amount of time, Doctor. I want to go now to the particular section of our interrogation wherein I asked you if you would assist in giving us information concerning the activities of which you had knowledge; do you remember that?

A: That could be, I of course cannot remember the details of the conversation that took place eighth months ago.

Q: Well, you have stated here that you were not certain whether or not we were going to have a trial. Is that right? At the time of this interrogation?

A: I said that at that time?

Q: No, you said that here on the stand; isn't that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you recall when I was later orally asking you to aid us in finding out facts concerning the activities at Buchenwald and I stated that we are going to have a trial; do you know that you answered, "Yes"? Then, I stated to you, there is no reason for holding you as a prisoner unless we have a trial; do you remember that?

A: I really did not get the impression I was to have anything to do with this trial; you were so extraordinarily polite and nice to me that you were really acting like my defense counsel and I did not think you were going to be the Prosecutor.

Q: Well, now Doctor, in this course of going over the affidavit, do you recall that we went over the affidavit do you recall that we went over the affidavit to the extent that I discussed with you the selection of inmates to be used in the experiments, not Mr. DeVries?

A: I certainly talked it over with Mr. DeVries, but I cannot remember that I did with you.

THE PRESIDENT: I think Mr. Hardy, we will take our recess now. The Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.

(A recess was taken.)