1947-07-01, #2: Doctors' Trial (late morning)
MR. MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution wishes to recall the witness Karl Hoellenrainer to the witness stand, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Hoellenrainer.
KARL HOELLENRAINER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SEBRING: You will raise your right hand and be sworn.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARDY:
Q: Witness, your name again is Karl Hoellerainer?
A: Yes.
Q: Witness, at the close of your testimony the other day, you were proceeding to tell the Tribunal about your activities after your arrival at the Dachau concentration camp?
A: Yes.
Q: How, when did you arrive for the first time at the Dachau concentration camp?
A: That was about the middle of July.
Q: And then you stayed at the camp hospital for a period of one or two days?
A: In Auschwitz?
Q: No, in Dachau, after your arrival?
A: Yes, Yes, in Dachau.
Q: And then you were examined physically and also X- rayed?
A: Yes.
Q: Then after you had been physically examined and X-rayed, what happened to you?
A: Then, we came into a so-called surgical department of the hospital.
There were 40 of us men. Then a doctor came to us, a man from the Luftwaffe, and he examined us. We had to take our clothes off and, line up. And he said, "Now, you will be given good food, as good as you have never had it, and then you will be hungry. You won't get anything to eat, and you will have to drink sea water." One of the prisoners whose name was Rudi Taubmann jumped up and refused. He was in an experiment, a cold water experiment, and he didn't want to be in any more experiments. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you are not quiet, and want to rebel I will shoot you on the spot. The doctor from the Luftwaffe always had a pistol, and then we were all quiet. For about one week we got cookies, zweibach, and brown sugar. There were about 21 little cookies, and three or four little pieces of dextrose. Otherwise, we got nothing. The eight days —
Q: Just a moment. Did you at any time volunteer for these experiments?
A: No.
Q: Were you asked whether or not you wished to volunteer for the experiments?
A: No.
Q: Were any of the other inmates asked if they would like to volunteer?
A: No
Q: Wasn't the young Mettbach a volunteer, the youngest Mettbach?
A: I know only one Ernst Mettbach from Furth, but I don't know whether he volunteered.
Q: Was Ernst Mettbach in the experiments throughout that is, did he complete the experiments?
A: No, he was only there a short time, two or three days maybe. Then, the doctor from Luftwaffe put him out, and where he went I don't know.
Q: How, did the Professor ask anyone for their approval before they were subjected to the sea water experiments?
A: No.
Q: Did the professor or any of the other Luftwaffe physicians talk to the inmates and advise them as to the hazards of the experiment prior to the commencement of the actual experiments?
A: No.
Q: Now, will you, in detail, tell the Tribunal just what food the experimental subjects received prior to the experiments, during the course of the experiments, and after the experiments; and in doing so, witness, kindly talk very slowly and distinctly so that the interpreters will be able to translate you mere efficiently.
A: Yes. At first we get potatoes, milk, and then we got these cookies and dextrose and zweibach. That was about one week. Then we got nothing. Then the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "How, you have to drink sea water, and you will be hungry." That was about one or two weeks. This Rudi Taubmann, as I already said, got excited and didn't want to participate, and the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you get excited and mutiny, I will shoot you," and then we were all quiet. Then we began to drink sea water. I drank the worst kind, that was yellowish. We drank it two or three times a day, and then in the evening, we had one liter of the yellow water. There was three kinds of water, white water, and yellow water; and I drank the yellow kind. And then after a few days, the people were cursing, they had foam at their mouth. The doctor from the Luftwaffe came with a cynical laugh and said, "Now it is time to make liver punctures." I know one very well.
Q: Talk more slowly, witness. Thank you.
A: Yes. The first row on the left when you came in, the second bed, that was the first one. He barked like a dog. He went crazy. He had foam at his mouth. The doctor from the Luftwaffe took him down on a stretcher with a white sheet over him, and then he stuck a needle about this long (indicating) into his right side, and there was a hypodermic needle on it, and it bled, and it was very painful. We were all quiet and excited. Then when that was ever, the other prisoners had their turn. The people were crazy from thirst and hunger, but the doctor had no pity on us. He was cold like ice. He didn't take any interest in us. Then, one gypsy — I don't know his name anymore — he eat a little bit of bread once, or drank some water, I don't remember just what he did, the doctor from the Luftwaffe got very angry and mad.
He took the gypsy and tied him to the bed post and sealed his mouth.
Q: Witness, do you mean that he put adhesive tape over this gypsy's mouth?
A: Yes.
Q: Go ahead, continue.
A: Then a gypsy, he was on the right, a big strong, husky fellow, he refused to drink the water. He asked the doctor from the Luftwaffe to let him go. He said he couldn't stand the water. He was sick with it. The doctor from the Luftwaffe had no pity, and he said, "No, you have to drink it." The doctor from the Luftwaffe told one of his assistants to go and get a sound. Naturally, we didn't know what a sound was. Then one of his assistants came with a red tube about that long (indicating) and thrust this tube in the gypsy's mouth first and then into his stomach.
Q: Just a moment. That tube was how long? How long would that be a half a meter long?
A: About this long (indicating).
Q: That will be about a half a meter?
A: Yes, about a half a meter. And then the doctor from the Luftwaffe, he took this red tube and put it in the gypsy's mouth and into his stomach. And then he poured the water down the tube. The gypsy kneeled in front of him and beseeched him, but that doctor had no pity.
Q: Witness, during the experiments were your temperature taken?
A: Yes.
Q: Who took your temperatures?
A: There were two Frenchmen, one tall thin and one short blond one; and they took the temperatures and the doctor from the Luftwaffe took the temperatures, too.
Q: When you say "the doctor from the Luftwaffe" you mean man you refer to as the professor. The professor and the doctor from the Luftwaffe are the same or are they two different people?
A: Yes.
Q: I see. Thank you. Now, who performed the liver punctures?
A: The doctor from the Luftwaffe carried out the liver punctures himself. Some people were given liver punctures and at the same time a lumbar puncture. The doctor from the Luftwaffe did that himself. It was very painful. Something ran out — water or something — I don't know what it was.
Q: Well, did you receive a liver puncture?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the professor tell you what reason he gave you that liver puncture — for what reason he gave you that liver puncture?
A: The doctor from the Luftwaffe came to me and said, "Now, Hollenreiner, it's your turn." I was lying on the bed. I was very weak from this water and from not having anything to eat. He said, "Now, lie on your left side and take your clothes off your right side I held on to the bedstead on top of me and the doctor from the Luftwaffe sat down next to me and pushed a long needle into me. It was very painful. I said, "Doctor, what are you doing?" The doctor said, "I have to make a liver puncture so that the salt comes out of your liver."
Q: Now, witness, can you tell us whether or not the subjects used in the experiments were gypsies of purely German nationality or were there some Polish gypsies, some Russian gypsies, Czechoslavakian gypsies, and so forth?
A: Yes, there were about seven or eight Germans and the rest of them were all Poles and Czechs, Czech gypsies and Polish gypsies.
Q: Were any of the experimental subjects ever taken out of the station room to the yard outside the experimental barracks?
A: Yes, at the end when the experiments were all finished; and three people were carried out with white sheets over them on a stretcher. They were covered with sheets but I don't know whether they were dead; but we, my colleagues and I, talked about it. We never saw them again neither at work nor anywhere in the camp. We often talked about it and wondered where they were. We never saw them again. I assume that the people died.
Q: Do you know where they were taken to?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Well, during the course of the experiments were you weighed every day?
A: Yes, we were weighed, too.
Q: Was that every day or every other day?
A: I don't remember exactly.
Q: Well, now, after the completion of the experiments in early September what happened to you?
A: When we had finished the experiments?
Q: Yes.
A: I told you that already. We were sent to the hospital and the doctor from the Luftwaffe came and said we were to take our clothes off and we lined up and were divided into three groups. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "Now you will be given good food. You have never had such good food." We were given potatoes, dextrose, cookies, milk —
Q: Just a minute, witness. I am referring to the end of the experiments, after the experiments were all completed. Could you tell us what date that was that your experiments were completed and you were transferred from the experimental station?
A: The experiment lasted, maybe, four or five weeks altogether. I don't know the date.
Q: Well, then, they were completed in early September. Is that correct? You arrived —
A: Yes.
Q: Now, after the experiments were completed did you then return to the camp proper or to the camp hospital?
A: No, into the camp — about twenty-two — we couldn't walk. We had to help each other in walking. We were exhausted and I forgot to tell you one thing. Before we began the experiments and we had this good food for about one week the doctor took us out into the courtyard near the hospital. The doctor from the Luftwaffe came. He had a little bottle and he put a number on our chest. I had number "23." It burned and then we went back into the block. On every bed there was a number, the same number that we had on our chest and one man — but I don't remember who it was — one of the prisoners, said: "That is what they call the death number."Then I was scared and the prisoner said, "Yes, that is the death number so that the doctor of the Luftwaffe will know right away who is dead."
We didn't want to go on with the experiments but what choice did we have? We were just poor prisoners. We had to let them do with us what they wanted. We couldn't resist. I haven't got the power to relate everything as it —
Q: All right. Just a moment. Was your bed number "23"?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you were considered to be experimental subject No. 23?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you sick during the course of the experiments, witness?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, after the completion of the experiments in early September were you then called in and weighed to determine your weight about two weeks later?
A: No, not after two weeks.
Q: Were you called in and weighed one week after you had completed the experiments? Do you remember?
A: I don't remember. But we were weighed.
Q: You were weighed every day during the experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: What I want to know is, were you weighed after the completion of the experiments? For instance, you were weighed every day during the experiments; then the experiments were completed; then you were not weighed again for a period of one or two weeks. Did you get weighed one or two weeks after the completion of the experiments?
A: When the experiment was all finished? No.
Q: Well, now after you left the experimental block and went to the camp how long before you were able to resume work?
A: A few days. Then we were given a detail at a farm in Feldmochingen. We had to work hard and the food was better than in the camp but, you know, if you are a prisoner; what did the farmers give you? A little bread, some soup — but, in any case, it was better than in the camp; and then every evening we came back to our block and then we got the regular camp food.
Q: Now, witness, were you ever subjected to any other medical experiments during the time that you were incarcerated in the concentration camps?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever suffer from any other diseases while you were in the concentration camps?
A: Yes. When the experiments were finished I got phlegmonal. I worked for the farmer for about a week and then I come back to the camp in Dachau and had phlegmonal. That was a few months I was in the hospital. It was the same block — not the same block where we had the experiment. It was a different building. Then I had phlegmonal. I was there about a few months. Then I came out there. My leg was stiff because I have a big wound there.
Q: All right, witness.
A: And then the doctors didn't help me the hospital and I had to leave the hospital again with my bent leg and I was examined by the SS doctors but they didn't care about my leg whether it was straight or bent. They weren't interested in me at all. They said I had to go to Augsburg and work for Messerschmitt.
Q: All right, witness, Did you ever have malaria while you were in the concentration camp?
A: No.
MR. HARDY: At this time, your Honor, the prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness. I might call attention of the Tribunal that this witness is Case No. 23, the man — we examined his charts and graphs, and the ones where the stenographic notes appear on the back thereof have been admittedly offered by the defendant Beiglboeck.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Beiglboeck):
Q: Witness, what was your father's name?
A: My father, Rudolf Hoellenreiner.
Q: What was your mother's maiden name?
A: Johanna Wagner.
Q: What were your grandparents' names?
A: My father's parents I know only my grandmother's name, Johanna Hoellenreiner. On my mother's side, Amalia Wagner.
Q: When you were examined the first time you said that you had never been convicted of any crime. Do you maintain this assertion?
A: No, I have been convicted.
Q: When why did you lie?
A: I did not lie. I meant from the experiments.
Q: The question was whether before you came to the Gestapo you had ever been convicted and punished by the police. Nothing had been said about experiments at that time. That's an excuse. Do you admit that you lied? It's much better for you.
A: No, I did not lie.
Q: Well, you have been convicted?
A: Yes.
Q: For theft?
A: Yes.
Q: For fraud?
A: Yes.
Q: For assault?
A: Yes.
Q: For blackmail?
A: What do you mean by that?
Q: Well, coercion.
A: No.
Q: For using a false name?
A: No, I never used a false name.
Q: You have to speak more slowly. We will come back to that. Then you were prosecuted for desertion?
A: Yes.
Q: You refused to obey your draft order?
A: Yes.
Q: Isn't that why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A: No, just because I am a gypsy. My brothers were in the war and they came back from Russia and came to Sachsenhausen and were murdered there, because there weren't supposed to be any more gypsies in the German army.
Q: What kind of a triangle did you wear in the camp?
A: A black one.
Q: Your wife said that you were in malaria, phlegmone, typhoid and sea-water experiments?
A: No, only this one experiment, no malaria.
Q: Do you admit that you lied to the young doctor who talked to you?
A: No, I didn't lie to the doctor. I just told him the truth. My wife and I weren't allowed to marry. My wife had a child and it was burned in Birkenau. My sister was burned and both her children.
Q: Don't get excited. I asked you whether you told the young doctor that you were in four different experiments. All you have to say is yes or no.
A: I told the doctor I drank salt water.
Q: Listen, Mr. Mettbach, don't evade my question after there fashion of gypsies. Give me a clear answer as a witness under oath. Did you tell the doctor that you were in other experiments, yes or no?
A: No. I just drank salt water.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the testimony of this doctor is not in evidence before this Tribunal. I don't understand what Dr. Steinbauer is referring to.
DR. STEINBAUER: In cross examination the prosecutor repeatedly read from testimony without offering it in evidence. I have the right to ask him —
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct. He may proceed, but it would be better if counsel would ask the witness when and where he spoke to this doctor and the name of the doctor if he knows it.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: In Erlangen did you talk to a doctor from the hospital named Dr. Kloger?
A: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Give the witness the date, Counsel. Tell him when that conversation took place or is supposed to have taken place.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: A few weeks ago.
A: I was under medical treatment in Erlangen, but I don't know any Dr. Kloger.
Q: Didn't a doctor come to your house? Didn't he come to see you?
A: Yes, I don't know whether it was a doctor.
Q: Well, but you talked to a young gentleman?
A: Yes.
Q: He said he was a doctor?
A: No, he didn't say he was a doctor.
Q: Didn't you tell this young man that you had been in four experiments?
A: No, I just told him I drank salt water, and I had a liver puncture and I had phlegmone. And this malaria and typhoid happened in these camps.
Q: Now, I am asking you for the last time, witness. I don't want to waste the Court's time. Did you tell this young man, Dr. Kloger, that you were in four experiments?
A: No.
Q: Then how can you explain the fact that your wife told me that?
A: I don't know. We went through a great deal in the camps. The Jews and the gypsies were all exterminated. We had no value in the camp.
Q: Didn't this young man leave a note with his address?
A: Yes.
Q: Well then, you knew his name?
A: How should I know if the man comes and writes this note and says his name is Kloger, but I don't know that he is a doctor.
Q: Now you know because you have that note.
A: Yes, and he told me to come see him.
Q: Didn't you tell this doctor that you wanted to go see Commissioner Auerbach in Munich because of your many sufferings?
A: Yes, because we were oppressed here in the concentration camp offices. The Nazis took everything away. We were sent to the camp and the Nazis took all our property.
Q: Well then, it's true that you want to ask for a large sum of money?
A: No, I haven't taken a penny.
Q: But you want 20,000 marks?
A: No.
Q: How much do you really want?
A: I haven't got anything yet. A man named Issner, from whom we made purchases before the war, his brother was exterminated in Auschwitz, and I haven't got a penny from the concentration camp office.
Q: Witness, you don't understand me. I didn't ask you how much you got. I believe you are telling the truth that you haven't got anything. I just asked you how much you want to ask for?
A: I haven't asked for anything yet.
Q: How much do you intend to ask for? Didn't you say that you were going to ask for 20,000 marks?
A: No.
Q: Aren't you Uncle Karl?
A: My name is Karl Hoellenrainer.
Q: Didn't your relatives at Herzbruck call you Uncle Karl?
A: No.
Q: What is your religion?
A: I am Catholic.
Q: Are you married.
A: Yes.
Q: When and where were you married.
A: I married in Erlangen.
Q: When?
A: In 1946.
Q: What month?
A: I don't remember what month.
Q: Well, was it in the summer or winter?
A: It was in the summer.
Q: You said you were in Auschwitz?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you in the Birkenau extermination camp?
A: Yes.
Q: Weren't the gypsies in a big camp there?
A: Yes.
Q: Were there women and children there?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a wife there?
A: Yes, my fiancee, Ida Schmidt. She was gassed. She was burned. I never sow her again.
Q: Didn't you beat this woman till she bled?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever beat her?
A: No.
Q: In what block were you there?
A: Block 18.
Q: Wasn't it block 20?
A: Oh, 20, yes, 20.
Q: You were in block 20. Do you remember who was the senior inmate there?
A: There was a big Hungarian. He distributed the food.
Q: Wasn't there a fellow named Laubinger?
A: Yes, but he only distributed the food.
Q: Yes, yes, I understand, and who was his deputy?
A: In the block you mean?
Q: Yes, Laubinger's deputy.
A: A little man, an East Prussian.
Q: Well, you are not so little, witness.
A: Me, yes.
Q: Yes, I am talking about Laubinger's deputy in this room.
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it you?
A: No, no.
Q: Witness, these are very unimportant things, of little consequence, but it is better to tell the truth.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, just think. Weren't you Laubinger's deputy?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you help him carry the food?
A: No.
Q: Were you in any experiments there?
A: No.
Q: Now, let's go to the next camp, Buchenwald.
A: Yes.
Q: Were you in block 46 or 20 or where were you?
A: We were in a tent camp.
Q: Very good, in a big tent camp.
A: Yes, there were several tents.
Q: Were there a hundred gypsies or two hundred, how many?
A: Oh, for God's sake, how shall I remember an exact number? There were a great many from Auschwitz. Some were put on a Wehrmacht transport. My brother was there. He was sent to Ravensbruck.
Q: A little slower, witness. Then I am right if I say there were some thousands of gypsies?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, there was a roll call one day and volunteers were asked for for a work detail.
A: No.
Q: Do you remember that?
A: No.
Q: You yourself said that there was a roll call and people were wanted for Dachau?
A: No, I don't know anything about it.
DR. STEINBAUER: The German record on Laubinger and Hoellenrainer is not yet available unfortunately.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, for the benefit of defense counsel, this witness did not say that. The witness Laubinger did. I didn't ask this witness how they selected them at Buchenwald.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I am sorry I only have the English.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Here when you were a witness you testified, "I was in a tent camp in Buchenwald."
A: Yes.
Q: "And suddenly our numbers were called."
A: Yes.
Q: "Forty men were called up including me."
A: Yes — no, we were just forty.
Q: It says "including me." I didn't write the record. "We were told that we had to leave for Dachau; we had to work there."
A: We were in Buchenwald in the tent camp and an SS man came and called our numbers. He called up my number too, and then we lined up in a group of our own. One gypsy who had already been in Dachau said it will be better in Dachau; we are going there to work, but we never volunteered for any experiments.
Q: I didn't ask you about that, witness. I asked you whether it is true what I have just read to you; that you were called up against your will?
A: We weren't asked at all. Forty of us were called together and were sent to Dachau.
Q: Now, I have to tell you that your countryman — he is from Furth too — Mettbach, said that he talked to you; that he wanted to come because Dachau was nearer Furth than Buchenwald; is that true?
A: That might be. I didn't mind going to Dachau because my brothers live in Munich.
Q: Then you did go voluntarily?
A: No, I did not.
Q: How does it happen that Laubinger said something else. Laubinger said you were deceived, that is why you volunteered?
A: No, I never volunteered. I certainly wouldn't ask for my own death and volunteer for —
Q: Well, you went to Dachau?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know the old Herzberg?
A: No.
Q: You don't remember the gypsy from Pressbourg?
A: No.
Q: Who was the oldest gypsy?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You were with your comrades for weeks, and don't know their names?
A: No.
Q: It is possible that Mettbach did not know all the names then, isn't it?
A: How should I know? I did not have time to ask everybody what his name is.
Q: Did the professor, when the experiments were to begin explain the purpose that it was for rescuing people from shipwrecks, and it was a sea-water experiment?
A: Yes, of course.
Q: Did he explain that you would be very thirsty?
A: Yes, he did first.
Q: And that thirst was very unpleasant?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember a Rudi Taubmann?
A: Yes.
Q: You said today that you thought he was a revolutionary?
A: No, I did not say that.
Q: And that he resisted, and the professor had to hold him back with a pistol?
A: No, no Rudi Taubmann was in the cold water experiments already, and the doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "You will have to drink sea—water, and you will be hungry, and you won't get anything to eat," Then Rudi Taubmann came up and told the doctor from the Luftwaffe he would not do it. The doctor from the Luftwaffe said, "If you refuse, if you mutiny, I will shoot you."
Q: Witness, I must put to you the testimony of Laubinger. You consider Laubinger a decent, trustworthy person?
A: Yes.
Q: Laubinger said on page 10220 of the English record when he was asked whether Taubmann and a certain Bamberger in Dachau — do you know them?
A: Yes, I know Bamberger.
Q: Whether they were volunteers, and he said, yes, they volunteered?
A: No, I never volunteered.
Q: No, no, no. Laubinger and Bamberger — I mean Taubmann and Bamberger?
A: I don't know.
Q: You said nobody volunteered?
A: No.
Q: But now I am telling you that Laubinger said. He said that Taubmann and Bamberger, who were in Dachau before volunteered?
A: No.
Q: Then Laubinger was lying?
A: I don't know.
Q: You know that he sad exactly the opposite to what you said?
A: On that day if Taubmann had volunteered, he would not get so excited.
Q: Then Laubinger was lying?
A: I don't know.
Q: Witness, I have read to you what the witness Laubinger testified to on this important point. Now I will ask you, is that true or not?
A: I don't know what it is about.
MR. HARDY: Defense counsel, may we read the Laubinger testimony. I apparently missed it.
DR. STEINBAUER: Can you be kind enough to read it in English, Mr. Hardy. You do better than I.
MR. HARDY: (Reads transcript silently)
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Well, then, Mr Laubinger —
A: My name is not Laubinger.
Q: Oh, Mr. Hoellenreiner. Was Laubinger lying on you?
A: Laubinger said the same thing I did. He has to, too. He has to tell the truth about what the doctor did.
Q: Yes, you both have to tell the truth, but now you are saying exactly the opposite. One of you must be lying.
A: I don't tell lies. I tell the truth what the doctor said.
Q: Now then Laubinger was lying?
A: I don't know.
Q: That is enough. You said that the young Mettbach from Furth, that he was telling the truth?
A: Yes. I know him.
Q: But you never saw him again, you said, is that right?
A: Yes, when he left the experiments we did not see him any more.
Q: That is enough. Now this Mettbach said that until the end of the experiments he was always in the Water Station I during the daytime, and only went to the Department II during the night?
A: I don't know.
Q: You just said you never saw him again?
A: Yes.
Q: How big was the room where you were?
A: Where these were carried out, where the experiments were carried out?
Q: How big was that room? As big as this room?
A: Not quite as big.
Q: Then could you see the people?
A: No, I did not see him any more.
Q: Witness, wasn't there another Mettbach?
A: I don't know.
Q: About this Mettbach, didn't you see him in the room?
A: No.
Q: Then Mettbach is lying?
A: We were so exhausted that we could not run around any more.
Q: Then you were blind?
A: No, I was not blind.
Q: Then you became nearsighted?
A: No. We were lying on beds. We did not have any strength to run around.
Q: Witness, thirst dries out the mouth?
A: Yes.
Q: How can you explain that these people had froth?
A: They had attacks and fits, and foamed at the mouth, they got raving madness fits.
Q: I am just asking you how it can be that when the mouth is completely dry there can be froth?
A: I don't know.
Q: Then some became mad?
A: Yes.
Q: You Gypsies stick together, too, don't you?
A: Yes, of course.
Q: Then you can tell me who became mad?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You must know, if a fried of mine — I was a soldier twice and if a friend of mine had gone mad then I would have known it.
A: It was a tall man who had first rolled on the floor. He was the first one and he and fits, and when he was there he was thrashing around with his hands and feet. He was a tall slim gypsy.
Q: You said that you were weighed?
A: Yes.
Q: Isn't it possible that after you got out of the experiment, and got good food again and plenty of water, that you were weighed again?
A: No.
Q: But then they had a chart showing where you were weighed every day?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were you weighed standing up or lying down?
A: Standing up.
Q: Were some of the people weighed lying down?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was this scale such that people could be weighed lying down?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where — what did this scale look like?
A: Well, it was a scale, a big scale. You had to stand on it. There was an indicator that showed the weight.
Q: The man who had his mouth fastened shut, did he have a tube for his stomach, too?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You had a liver puncture?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have a scar?
A: I don't know.
Q: Don't you ever look at yourself?
A: Yes. You want to see it?
Q: No. I am just asking you if you have a little circle, a little round scar there?
A: I did not look at it as carefully as that.
Q: Well, don't you think you have it? You do or you do not?
A: I don't know. I was not interested in these camp matters any more. I would go crazy. I did not want to hear anything more about the camp. We suffered long enough.
Q: Witness, do you think you are crazy or mentally defective?
A: No.
Q: Do you think there is something wrong with you mentally?
A: No.
Q: You say you are going crazy?
A: Well, if I keep thinking of that camp.
MR. HARDY: I object to this line of questioning, your Honor.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Well, you had a liver puncture?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether you have a scar, yes or no?
A: I don't know.
Q: What was the nationality of the people in the camp who were experimental subjects?
A: Poles and Czechs.
Q: How many Germans were there?
A: Ten or eight, that spoke German.
Q: Were there some Hungarians and Burgenlaender?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Wasn't there a fellow there called Papai?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were the Frenchmen there nice, or were they typical SS men?
A: No, they were good to us.
Q: Were they inmates?
A: Yes.
Q: They were nurses. Were these Frenchmen good people?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did they sleep?
A: I don't know.
Q: Listen, witness, they slept next to you. You must know that?
A: No. The doctor from the Luftwaffe was with the guards, and they guarded us with a pistol.
Q: Well, three people were carried out, you said.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know their names?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody die during the experiment, as far as you know? Could you say Meier died, for example?
A: No.
Q: Then, after the experiment was over, you worked on a farm?
A: Yes.
Q: That was in September — harvest?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that clean work or was that dirty work?
A: That was dirty work.
Q: One got dirty easily?
A: Yes.
Q: And where did you get after you left that farm? You had a phlegmone after this dirty work —
A: Yes.
Q: And then where did you go?
A: Then I went to Augsburg.
Q: To the Messerschmitt Works.
A: Yes.
Q: What were you there in the Messerschmitt Works?
A: I was a laborer.
Q: No, you were more. Just think.
A: No, I was nothing. I was a common laborer. I was just a prisoner when I worked for Messerschmitt. My leg was still crooked when they sent me away from Dachau.
Q: Weren't you the foreman there?
A: No.
Q: What are you living on now?
A: I am a dealer in textiles and musical instruments.
Q: Can you read and write?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you like to read the newspaper?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a radio?
A: Yes.
Q: At the beginning of this trial why didn't you come here and volunteer as a witness?
A: I didn't hear about it.
Q: But you have a radio!
A: Yes.
Q: Aren't you in the Care Station?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't they talk about the experiments in Dachau?
A: No. If I had known about it I would have come here immediately.
Q: Didn't you ever beat anybody in Auschwitz?
A: No. I can swear to that.
Q: Now another question — the witness, Massion —
A: I don't know him.
Q: He was a soldier, a young fellow from the Rhineland.
A: In Auschwitz?
Q: No, no. We are talking about Professor Beiglboeck's station.
A: Yes.
Q: He was a witness; his name was Massion — a young Luftwaffe soldier.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember him?
A: Did he wear glasses?
Q: No, a student from the Rhineland.
A: I don't know. I only knew two — the doctor from the Luftwaffe— there was an older man from the Luftwaffe and a younger man, with glasses. There was something wrong with his eyes.
Q: Witness, a fellow named Pillwein, Fritz. Do you remember him? He was a nurse; he gave aid and food and weighed the people.
A: Yes.
Q: He was from Vienna?
A: Yes, he was from Vienna.
Q: Was he a nice fellow?
A: Yes, he was a very good man.
Q: Do you consider him trustworthy?
A: Yes.
Q: Then there was a Dr. Lesse there; he made the blood tests, etc.
A: Yes.
Q: Was he a nice fellow?
A: From the Luftwaffe?
Q: Yes, he was from the Luftwaffe.
A: A big tall fellow?
Q: Was he a nice fellow?
A: Well, what do you mean — nice?
Q: I am just asking you, do you consider him trustworthy?
A: No.
Q: How about Worlicek?
A: I don't know him.
Q: He was from Vienna too; he helped Pillwein.
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Did this Pillwein treat you well?
A: Yes.
Q: Now I have to tell you that these witnesses, so there is no mistake — the witness Worlicek said that the people were treated well outside of the experiment and then I should like the Prosecutor to read what the witness Laubinger said— Well, that is not important— they all said that the Professor treated the experimental subjects well.
A: No!
Q: Well, are all these people lying then?
A: How could the doctor from the Luftwaffe treat us well?
Q: This doctor —
A: What doctor?
Q: Dr. Beiglboeck.
A: No, he did not treat us well.
Q: All right. Let us go on. Do you smoke a great deal?
A: Yes, I used to smoke.
Q: Did you smoke in the camp?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it easy to get cigarettes there?
A: No.
Q: In 1944 was it easy to get cigarettes anywhere in Germany outside of the camp?
A: No.
Q: Then cigarettes were very valuable?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you often sell or trade your food for cigarettes?
A: No.
Q: Did the professor give cigarettes to the patients?
A: Yes.
Q: How many?
A: Two or three.
Q: And the people who did the experiment well, got more?
A: I don't know.
Q: Well, think If Laubinger knew about it you must know about it.
A: No I don't know.
Q: Well, then you were in the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: Your numbers 23?
A: Yes.
Q: Can it be that from the 22nd to the 30th of August 1944 you were in the experiment? That is 9 days — 8½ days — is that right, when you were directly in the experiment?
A: The water experiments and the liver puncture and so on lasted a week or two.
Q: Don't evade me — when you yourself were drinking the water under supervision.
A: I don't remember.
Q: But think! It is important.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Why don't you remember? Do you want to make it more days or don't you want to tall the truth?
A: No. I am telling the truth.
Q: Well, I will show you a chart which shows that you were in the experiment nine days at the most.
A: No, it was longer.
Q: Do you know what your weight was at the beginning?
A: No.
Q: At the end?
A: No.
Q: Were you ever photographed?
A: Yes.
Q: When you were in bed?
A: On a stretcher in the courtyard we were photographed.
Q: Was that at the beginning, the end, the middle, or when?
A: At the end of the experiment.
Q: I am afraid I don't have the photographs with me but we don't need them. At the end of the experiment you were photographed?
A: I don't remember exactly.
Q: Now I asked you whether you were photographed and you said it was at the end.
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now I would like to tell me whether you are the one with the No. 23 here.
A: Yes.
Q: First look at the picture.
A: Here I am. (Indicating on photograph)
Q: That is right? That is you?
A: Here, in these two pictures.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be seated. Sit down, witness.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q: Witness, these pictures were taken just before the end of the experiment?
A: Yes.
Q: And how did the experiment and in your case — do you remember?
A: I don't remember what day it was.
Q: I asked you how, and were you given water to drink, or milk?
A: No.
Q: Well, what happened?
A: We had to drink salt water.
Q: Yes, but when that stopped?
A: Well, when the experiment was finished, then we got water.
Q: Well, did the professor give you an injection?
A: At the end he gave me a long bottle; it was water; he tied it up at the top and let it go into my arm.
Q: That is what I wanted to know. Then after that did you feel better?
A: No.
Q: And it is not true if the professor says that it was almost a miracle how you revived and were able to walk around again?
A: No. I did not jump nor did I run around when the experiment was finished. Prisoners had to help each other to walk.
Q: Witness, weren't you photographed after you got this injection?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Well, think. Don't just say you don't know, but think it over. If you need time just think it over.
A: No. I don't remember.
Q: Now when these experiments were going on did you swindle?
A: No, no, never.
Q: You never drank any water?
A: No.
Q: We had a famous professor from America, here and he found out exactly who drank water, and when.
A: I never drank any water. We were so exhausted we could not even get up and we were under guard.
Q: You say you never drank water.
A: No.
Q: Then it is not possible that on three days — on the 24th, the 25th and the 29th you certainly drank water and on the 28th probably?
A: I did not drink any water during this experiment.
Q: Didn't you throw away your urine?
A: No, the doctor from the Luftwaffe examined the urine and he said, "Hollenrainer—"
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the translation has not been coming through.
Q: Witness, did you throw away your urine?
A: No.
Q: How much of this water did you drink — this yellow water?
A: That was about the size of mug.
Q: Could it have been half a litter?
A: Yes.
Q: And it had to be eliminated, too. If it is taken into the body it has to be eliminated.
A: Yes.
Q: Well, how does it happen that on two days you had less urine than you drank, where otherwise you had exactly the same value? It is a very unimportant thing — it would be much nicer — make a much better impression, if you tell the truth. The other gypsies admitted that they swindled. That you should be the only one —
A: I didn't do anything; I didn't drink any water; I didn't eat anything.
Q: And you did not throw away any urine?
A: No.
Q: Well, when you were so weak after the experiment and came back to your barracks, which barrack did you come to?
A: Block 22.
Q: 22. Weren't there other gypsies there too? Room 4, I think?
A: I don't remember. And it is not important.
Q: Did you meet Laubinger there?
A: Yes.
Q: Mettbach?
A: No. No Mettbach.
Q: Witness, I will have you confronted with Mettbach who will say that he was with you.
A: When the experiment was finished he was with me but he went away to Mauthausen.
Q: Witness, I am asking you whether Mettbach was in the room in Block 22 with you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember — that is something different. Do you consider it possible that he was there?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were there people who repeated the experiment?
A: I don't know that either.
Q: If a gypsy was lying on the ground, wouldn't you have helped him, or wouldn't the Frenchmen have helped him?
A: The doctor from the Luftwaffe took the patients down on a stretcher and made the liver puncture; some of them in their beds, too.
Q: I am asking you if a person became mad or was writhing on the ground wouldn't any of his comrades have helped him?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because they couldn't walk.
Q: Because you were weak?
A: Yes, we were weak.
Q: But the Frenchmen weren't so weak?
A: I don't know.
Q: They were next door?
A: The Frenchmen were there. They were in the other room.
Q: How far away was the other room?
A: In the same block on the right.
Q: There was just a door between them?
A: Yes.
Q: Were all the gypsies in the experiment at the same time or were there some that weren't in the experiment?
A: They were all in the experiment except Ernst Mettbach.
Q: You didn't understand me. I am sorry, witness. I am asking you whether all 44 of them drank sea water at the same time, or whether one group was thirsting and the others were going for a walk?
A: No, there were three kinds of water, white water and yellow water, and three groups, about thirteen men in each group and fourteen in one.
Q: That is what I wanted to know. The group not in the experiment did they eat in the room or out of the room?
A: I don't know.
Q: Well, witness, you were there?
A: How should I know. When I was drinking seawater we didn't get anything to eat.
Q: What about the others?
A: We were all in the block. We couldn't walk.
Q: Did some people have to repeat the experiment?
A: Yes, the people who drank the water or ate some bread. Then the doctor from the Luftwaffe would get some sea water.
Q: Yes, we have already heard that. Do you know that some people had what they called an "escape point"?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were you there when the station was dissolved and the apparatus was packed up? Did you help?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether the professor tried to help the prisoners get some privilege, or to have people released from the Wehrmacht? Did you hear anything about that?
A: No.
Q: Didn't he promise that?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know anything — do you suffer from a weak memory?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, will you please propound your questions more slowly. The question and answer are too fast for the interpreters.
Witness, will you speak more slowly and before answering counsel's questions wait a moment to let the interpreters translate counsel's questions.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q: Witness, you have already told us about the cigarettes. Do you know whether the professor did anything else for the experimental subjects, for example, that members of the Wehrmacht were to be released?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you remember some criminals, that is, criminal police, that came and inquired?
A: No, I know nothing about that.
Q: Neither do I. Do you know that Laubinger came to the Quartermaster's office?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: He was in the same room with you, 22?
A: Yes, when the experiments were finished. I was on the farm for about a week and then had a phlegmone and was then taken to the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I must insist that you wait until the witness has finished his answer and then propound your next question, so that it can be translated. And witness, you must delay your answer until the Question propounded by counsel has been translated.
Q: Witness, do you know whether in the winter of 1944 or in the spring of 1945 there was a big famine in the camp?
A: I don't know anything about that.
Q: Did you ever hear anything about it?
A: No.
Q: And that many gypsies died then, you didn't hear that?
A: In Dachau?
Q: Yes, in Dachau.
A: No.
Q: Did you meet any of these 44 people?
A: No, there were not many. When the experiments were finished, many gypsies were sent to other concentration camps. I was in the hospital then.
Q: And you weren't in any malaria experiment?
A: No.
Q: Or typhoid experiment?
A: No, typhoid and malaria was in Auschwitz. A lot of gypsies had that in Auschwitz. Dead people were stacked like flour sacks and then taken away by trucks to the crematorium. Gypsies and Jews weren't worth anything in the camp.
DR. STEINBAUER: In the meantime, Mr. President, I have obtained the excerpt from the criminal record, which is only in German. I shall have it translated and offer it to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: From that record you might ask the witness concerning the statements on the record which you have.
MR. HARDY: May I see the record to check its authenticity? Will the German interpreters kindly look at this for me to check its authenticity?
Q: Witness, I don't want to bother you with the question, but do you think it possible you had nine convictions?
A: I don't remember. I was a deserter and they betrayed me when I came to Auschwitz.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further Questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions to this witness by defense counsel?
DR. GAWLIK: Gawlik for Hoven.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, on what matters do you desire to examine this witness?
DR. GAWLIK: About the general treatment of Jews in the concentration camp.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't see the relevancy of that matter concerning your client.
DR. GAWLIK: In order to prove the attitude of Dr. Hoven toward the Jews.
MR. HARDY: I think that is a matter of chronology, the attitude toward the Jews in this matter, taking into consideration the record of the IMT.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to ask the witness whether or not he knows Hoven?
DR. GAWLIK: No.
THE PRESIDENT: I see no materiality concerning the case of Dr. Hoven in the examination of this witness.
DR. GAWLIK: For my case I consider it material for my closing brief, but if the Tribunal does not think the questions necessary then I will dispense with them.
THE PRESIDENT: I see no pertinency of the questions to your defense.
DR. GAWLIK: I consider it pertinent to prove the good reputation and character of the defendant Dr. Hoven and to prove that it is unlikely that he committed the offenses with which he is charged.
THE PRESIDENT: I suggest, counsel, if you contend that this witness knew Dr. Hoven, then it would be a different question, but you said you made no such contention.
DR. GAWLIK: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Then I see nothing to which he can testify that would be pertinent to Dr. Hoven's defense.
DR. GAWLIK: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions by defense counsel representing clients by whom this witness may be properly examined?
MR. HARDY: I have nothing further.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Hoellenreiner is excused from the witness stand to be reconducted to his confinement in the prison.
The Secretary of the Tribunal — I see the Secretary is now absent.
MR. HARDY: The defense counsel have some documents. I think they might well introduce them now. I think I will be in a position at 1:30 to start with documents for identification.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, Dr. Sauter for defendants Blome and Ruff.
I have heard that yesterday the Tribunal asked for a list of documents which are still to be offered by the defense. This morning I asked my colleagues how many documents they still have to offer, and I have drawn up a list which I now hand to the Tribunal so that the Tribunal will be informed. I shall hand you a list in a moment. On the right side I have always indicated whether these documents are in the hands of the Translation Branch, or whether they have not yet been handed in. You will be able to get a picture from this list. Unfortunately I have this list only in German, as there was not enough time to have it translated. I am sure, however, you will be able to understand the list anyhow.
THE PRESIDENT: I am surprised that defense counsel have documents which they have not yet handed to translation. I understood all such documents were in the hands of the translation department some time ago.
The Tribunal has received the list of the documents referred to by counsel.
DR. SAUTER: And then, Mr. President, may I make another remark? I have made a listing on a point, which the President brought up for discussion about the approximate number of pages of the closing briefs and the final pleas, insofar as they have not yet been translated. I have made this listing. Just a moment, perhaps I can give the court some copies of it.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, from looking at this list concerning the supplement documents — wait a minute, I can see we only have to deal with the supplemental documents in the case of Schroeder, Mrugowsky, Sievers and Brack, combined with all the others are merely miscellaneous documents and it seems to me Brack's, Schroeder's, Sievers', Mrugowsky's attorney should be able to present their documents today. They certainly must have had their documents in more than a week ago, particularly the defendants Brack, Sievers, and Mrugowsky inasmuch as their cases were completed weeks ago.
DR. SAUTER: The delay with many documents can be explained by the fact that the Prosecution has offered now evidence against various defendants through the cases has long been completed. For example, against the defendant Dr. Blome, whose case has been finished for months, more documents were offered last week by the Prosecution. In this case, I have had no opportunity to call witnesses. I have made a statement on this new evidence and on an important point I have taken an affidavit of Dr. Blome today. I want this affidavit, which was taken, to be translated. It was not possible to do that earlier and it is possibly the same with other defense counsel. These documents, which are still missing, are documents dealing with these recent charges raised by the Prosecution.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, you see the great difficulty has been here, the Prosecution, in an endeavor to be cooperative with the Tribunal and defense counsel, has introduced rebuttal evidence out of order.
We have done that to shorten the number of days and to expedite the closing of the trial. In so doing, the defense counsel picked up rebuttal evidence and tried to have new affidavit made.
I think a lawyer like Dr. Sauter who went through the whole I.M.T. and is far more familiar with the procedure of the Tribunal is trying to offer further evidence in rebuttal to the Prosecution's rebuttal evidence. We will never have the trial close if all of this evidence is permitted today.
THE PRESIDENT: There is merit in what the Prosecution has said. The Prosecution introduces evidence, the defense introduces evidence, the prosecution then introduces evidence in rebuttal and then rebuttal evidence is introduced by the defense. At the conclusion of the defense's rebuttal, the case is ended.
The prosecution in order to expedite the trial introduced some evidence out of order. Such evidence is not subject to defendant's rebuttal, it entitles them to bring in further evidence, but the case closes with the presentation of the defendant's rebuttal evidence. If the evidence here had been introduced in an orderly manner, it would be ended. If, of course, the prosecution in rebuttal, after introducing new evidence that is not in rebuttal in what the defense's contention is, the defense has an opportunity to introduce evidence.
MR. HARDY: May I correct you, Your Honor, you erroneously said defendant's rebuttal when you mean prosecution rebuttal.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, after receiving other evidence, which is not rebuttal or in explanation of evidence introduced by the defense that the new evidence will be excluded then there is no necessity and it might be excluded on objection. If there are no objections, it would go in. If it was admitted in evidence then the defense might answer. If the Prosecution offers the objection, it may open the door for the defendant to introduce other evidence to deny it. That would be a matter to be decided by the Tribunal and the Court trying the case as circumstances might arise.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I saw something which is important for myself and which also goes more or less for all my colleagues. The Prosecution just said that Dr. Sauter had been in the I.M.T. and know the procedure very well. Now, I must say we learned something new in this field in many respects. For example, that the Prosecution on the last day of the case can bring new witnesses that is something new for us. I, as defense counsel, if it is a fair trial, demand that if such new evidence is brought in at the last moment, I am given an opportunity to answer it.
I should like to show you by a practical example what I mean. During the whole trial, which has been going on for eight months, the Prosecution did not say a single word against the defendant Dr. Blome in connection with typhus. Then it would have been their right to charge the defendant Dr. Blome in this connection, but for eight months they did not do so and now at the last moment, I believe it was last Friday, a document was submitted which suddenly charges the defendant Dr. Blome with typhus experiments. In his whole life he heard nothing about them and during the whole trial nothing was said about them.
In the interests of a fair trial, the Prosecution cannot say I am now in rebuttal and I think I have a right to demand that when such a new charge is raised, I have a right to answer it and if this document is given to me on Friday, I am not a magician, I cannot offer the affidavit of the Defendant Dr. Blome months ago. That is apparently true of many other cases of the other defense counsel. Mr. President, I ask the Tribunal to have understanding for this affidavit.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, may I ask the defense counsel one question? Is the Defendant Blome charged in the indictment with typhus? No, is the answer. No further questions.
DR. SAUTER: Then I would like to ask the Prosecutor why, I think it was last Friday, he submitted a document which connects the defendant Blome with typhus experiments?
MR. HARDY: The defendant Blome is not charged in the indictment with typhus, the evidence will show that the Prosecution definitely entertains no charge against Defendant Blome with typhus. That is correct.
It seems to me that defense counsel can read the record and see which evidence they can well ignore. I think in a question like this document, they would do well to ignore it. The affidavit shows the Tribunal the entire procedure, they held conferences, how typhus experiments were started.
It seems at this last date the document at least did show Dr. Blome was connected with typhus.
THE PRESIDENT: You introduced no official evidence to show that the defendant Blome was charged with typhus experiments?
MR. HARDY: I did not introduce it, Your Honor, and this is the first time the Document was introduced.
THE PRESIDENT: The matter of evidence is covered by Ordinance No. 7, which allows the Tribunal in its discretion to allow rebuttal on both sides. The situation is not altogether fortunate, but I would like to say defendants in preparing these documents they were informed they must get in their documents to the Translation center. I don't know how many documents are coming out. The translation authorities said the documents would be turned out every day beginning with yesterday, today and tomorrow. I don't know if the defense received any documents or not.
I notice defendant Mrugowsky has put in 19 documents, put them in on the 27th day of June — just a few days since. Have any defense counsel further documents to introduce? We have some here, I notice.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I add something? In addition to the one list, which I gave you about the documents, which are not ready yet, I have a second list which I also handed to you, showing approximately the number of pages of the closing briefs and final pleas, insofar as they are not yet translated.
On the left side, I have the name of the defendant and defense counsel; in the middle, I have a column showing whether these closing briefs and pleas have been handed in for translation yet or not, or whether this translation is finished. On the right side, I have the number of pages still to be translated. The majority of these closing briefs and pleas are in the hands of the translating branch. I am giving you this list so that the President will have a picture of how much material still has to be translated.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that the number of pages shown in the right hand column simply indicates the number of pages not yet translated; is that correct?
DR. SAUTER: Yes, the number of pages not yet translated. On those that are translated, I simply made a line and dash on the right and that is indicated in the center column. The figures on the right are only those which are still to be translated, which have not yet come back from the Translation Branch. The President can see how much work there has to be done by the Translation Branch and it will be easier for the President to reach his dispositions.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand. We appreciate this list. Of course, the documents which must be introduced before the close of the evidence are the matters of first importance. The briefs will be done as soon as the documents which are to be referred in evidence are ready. I shall endeavor during the noon recess to ascertain how the translation department is proceeding.
The Secretary will file for the record the certificate concerning defendant Oberheuser who is ill.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)