1947-07-01, #4: Doctors' Trial (late afternoon)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. NELTE (Counsel for defendant Handloser): Mr. President, I have heard that you objected to my handing in a document for translation yesterday. For clarification, I should like to remark that this was not a document which I could have offered in the case for Professor Handloser. I submitted all of these documents. The document which I gave for translation yesterday afternoon for a decision: the statement of Professor Reiter on his examination of 22 November 1946. I could not give this document to the Translation Branch sooner, because I did not have the affidavit of Professor Reiter, which the Prosecution offered in Document Book 19. I ask you to take notice of this fact, and I also ask Mr. Hardy to make the statement concerning this document which he promised yesterday. I have given him the original.
MR. HARDY: Concerning that original document, Your Honor, I have had my clerks check the files to see whether or not we have received any such document from Professor Reiter while he was incarcerated here in the prison in Nurnberg. Unfortunately, I did not bring the document which Dr. Nelte gave to me, I will return it to him later, but my clerks have been unable to find receipt of any such document by the Prosecution.
DR. NELTE: Does that clarify the matter, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, as far as you are concerned, Doctor, I understand.
MR. HARDY: If Your Honors please, on page 4 of the index of these documents which have been marked for identification, we now refer again to Document NO 997, which has been offered as Prosecution Exhibit 506, which is found on page 7740 of the transcript and was introduced during the cross-examination of the Defendant Brack, I believe Dr. Froeschmann has an objection. Mr. Hochwald of our office is here to argue the objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Will Dr. Froeschmann state his objection?
MR. HARDY: In addition to that, Your Honor, the next document on page 4, which is NO 365, which the prosecution offer as Exhibit NO 507, which was also introduced during the cross-examination of Brack, on page 7743, counsel also intends to object to that one, and Dr. Hochwald will handle both objections at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel for Defendant Brack will state his objection.
DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for Defendant Brack): Mr. President, I object to these two documents. They are not signed, they are carbon copies of a letter which we never received, and it cannot be determined whether the original was written or by whom it was written, it is nothing but a piece of paper which was used for a carbon copy and on which there are words and sentences describing some incident. I don't believe I am too formalistic, but in view of the significance which the Prosecution attaches to this document, it might be advisable to determine who sent this letter out.
THE PRESIDENT: Please hand the original documents to the Tribunal.
MR. HARDY: While the Tribunal is perusing these documents, I might ask the Defense Counsel for Brack if he has any other documents concerning euthanasia that he intends to object to; I don't believe there are any others, but if he has any intention of further objections I wish he would make them now while Dr. Hochwald is here.
DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the defendant Brack): Just a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: These handwritten initials — capital "N", period, small "d" period, capital "H", period, capital "M", period are simply written at the bottom of the first page. They do not, apparently, correspond, with any place for a signature. We will hear from Counsel for the Prosecution.
DR. HOCHWALD: If Your Honors, please, these two documents are captured documents from the files of the Ministry for the Eastern Territories. The initials which Your Honor just mentioned are indicating that this duplicate original, I do think 997 is a duplicate original, the other one, 365, is an original, were handed to the Minister for perusal. I do not know what the "N" means, but "f.d. H.M." is fuer den Herrn Minister, "for the Minister." It is obvious that these documents were written by someone — I do not know who it was — to hand to the Minister for perusal. These documents are captured documents, and if they are not signed they are perfectly admissible into evidence, and are just duplicate originals of letters which were written.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, these were written but not necessarily sent; what do you think the probative value of these documents is and against whom?
DR. HOCHWALD: The probative value against the Defendant Brack is that he — a conference is described in these two documents which took place in his presence, and he took part in this conference, and what was said and what was decided upon in this conference is described in these two documents. The Prosecution does not contend that this letter, NO-365, was sent to the Defendant Brack, but the but the document itself shows what in this conference was decided; and for this purpose, this document was put into evidence on the part of the Prosecution.
The file note, Document NO-997, is only supporting Document NO-365. Both documents refer, obviously, to the same conversation, or to the same conference which took place in the presence of the Defendant Brack. That Brack made suggestions for the extermination of the Jews is clear from the last sentence of Document NO-365, which says:
There are no objections against doing away with those Jews who are not able to work, with the Brack remedy.
So, it is clear from this sentence that it was the suggestion of the Defendant Brack to exterminate these people by gas.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, one document also contains the express remark "draft". It is not even certain that the letter was ever written; an unknown person has drafted a letter with no signature and I do not believe that this is a document of any probative value which could be admitted into evidence. Both documents, as a matter of fact, say "draft".
DR. HOCHWALD: Your Honor, the Prosecution does not contend that letters of this kind were written. We think this draft was for the perusal of the Minister, who obviously wrote a letter os the same contents, but what we want to prove by this document is what was the subject of this conference in which the Defendant Brack took part and what was decided there. I want only to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that other documents, the Haagen documents, were put into evidence and admitted into evidence which have very much the same form and are very much of the same nature as these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: These documents apparently have some probative value in connection with the fact that a certain solution of what was called the "Jewish Problem" had been considered. Counsel for the Defendant Brack will be at liberty in his brief to argue that they have no probative value against his client. The Tribunal will then consider the probative value of the documents. The two documents will be admitted in evidence.
MR. HARDY: Them, Your Honor, I reiterate that Document NO-997is Prosecution Exhibit 506 and NO-365 is Prosecution Exhibit 507.
We will now turn to Page 4a of the index, Your Honors.
The first document is Document NO-3282, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 508 and is contained on page 8860 of the record and was introduced during the cross examination of the Defendant Beiglboeck.
The next document is Document NO-3283, which is Prosecution Exhibit 509 found on page 8861. This is an affidavit which was introduced during the cross examination of the Defendant Beiglboeck. These two affidavits and two documents are in good order and have jurats thereon, Your Honor.
The next document is NO-3342, which is Prosecution Exhibit 510, which is found on page 8870 of the record and which was introduced during the cross examination of the Defendant Beiglboeck.
The next documents, Your Honor, are those documents which were introduced during the interrogation and examination of the defendant-of the witness — pardon me — Dr. Ivy. The copies that I have made available to Defense Counsel — I didn't bring additional copies, but copies of the German and the English I will make available in larger numbers to Defense Counsel for their files if they so desire.
The first one is Document NO-3967, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 511, which is found on page 9336, which was introduced during the examination of the witness, Dr. Ivy, concerning yellow fever experiments. This is an official publication put out by the Government Printing Office in Washington D.C.
The next document, Your Honor, is NO-3906, which is prosecution Exhibit 512, which is found on page 9136 of the transcript and was introduced during the examination of the witness, Dr. Ivy. This concerns the work of Professor Strong and Professor Crowell in connection with the beri-beri experiments as published in the Philippine Journal of Science, Volume VII, 1912.
If Your Honors will turn to Page 5 of the index, the top thereof, we have Document NO-3905, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 513, which is found on page 9137 of the transcript and deals with the plague experiments by Colonel Strong and Professor Crowell as reported in the Philippine Journal of Science.
The next document is Document NO-3907, which is Prosecution Exhibit 514, which is found on page 9138 of the transcript and was introduced during the examination of the witness, Professor Ivy. This is a report on Trench Fever and is published by the Oxford University Press.
The next is Document NO-3966, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 515, which is found on page 9138 of the transcript, introduced into evidence during the examination of the witness Ivy and is an extract from material published by the Archives for Internal Medicine regarding the pellagra experiments on white male convicts.
The next document is Document NO-3969, which is Prosecution Exhibit 516, which is found on page 9138 of the transcript, was introduced during the testimony of the witness Ivy and is a statement relative to the prospective volunteers and applications for inclusion in the study of new anti-malarial compounds concerning malaria experiments at the Stateville Penitentiary in the State of Illinois in the United States of America.
The next document is NO-3968, which is Prosecution Exhibit 517, which is an application for participation in the various malaria experiments at the federal prisons. This is found on page 9139 of the transcript and was introduced during the testimony of the witness Ivy.
The next document is3964, which is Prosecution Exhibit 518, which is found on page 9139 of the record and is an article concerning medical experimentation on human beings in Mexican bronchitic typhus experiments, as introduced during the testimony of Professor Ivy.
The next is Document NO-3965, which is Prosecution Exhibit 519, which is found on page 9149 of the record and was introduced during the testimony of Professor Ivy and is a radio script entitled, "Malaria Research Report" and pertains to the details of a report given on the radio wherein the experimental subjects used at the Stateville Penitentiary in the malaria experiments in the United States were interviewed.
The next document is NO-3450, Prosecution Exhibit No. 519, which is found on page 9587, which is concerning statements of expenditures in connection with influenza research assignment by Haagen and was introduced during the examination and cross examination of the witness, Professor Haagen.
The next document is NO-2874. This is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 520 and is found on page 9651. It was introduced during the examination of the witness Haagen and is a file copy of an original document which was found in the Gaagen files. This is a letter from Haagen to Rose regarding the production of vaccines.
The next document, Your Honor, is NO-3852, which is Prosecution Exhibit 521, found on page 9656 of the record, concerning the testimony of the witness Haagen, and is entitled "Professor Haagen's diary concerning "Vaccine typhus yolk bags, dried."
The next document, Your Honor, is Document NO-2031, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 522, which is found on page 9955 of the record and which is an affidavit of Joseph Ackermann, which was introduced during the examination of the Defendant Hoven. This is in due order, Your Honor, and has the necessary jurat thereon.
The next document, Your Honors, is NO-2313, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 523 and is on page 9958 and is a corporal punishment report of prisoners of the concentration camp Buchenwald which was introduced during the examination of the Defendant Hoven. This morning the Defense Counsel for Hoven requested that he be allowed to have an expert examine the words on the top of this document and I am advised that the advice he received by his expert coincides with the information conveyed to the Tribunal by the interpreters in this courtroom.
That word is "died."
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Defendant Hoven): Mr. President, I merely want to object to the copies which were given to the Tribunal. It just says, "Signed, signature." The document, however, shows that this was not signed by the defendant, Dr. Hoven but by someone named Plaza. I should like that to be put in the copies so that there is no confusion with the Defendant Hoven.
MR. HARDY: There is absolutely no confusion, Your Honor. The Prosecution never purported that that was the signature of Hoven. We said that we were unable to determine whose signature that was. I put it to Hoven, and I think the record indicates that Hoven figured it out to be Plaza.
THE PRESIDENT: I remember the matter of this document. It was not contended that it had the signature of the Defendant Hoven.
MR. HARDY: The next document, Your Honor, is NO-2312, which is Prosecution Exhibit 524, which is found on page 9960 of the record. I introduced it during the cross examination of the Defendant Hoven, and on the reverse side the signature of Hoven appears there and, if I recall correctly he identified it during the course of his examination.
The next document is Document NO-1944, which is Prosecution Exhibit 525, found on page 9965 of the record. It was introduced during the examination of the Defendant Hoven and pertains to the securing of equipment for installation in Block 50 at the Buchenwald concentration camp.
The Next document, Your Honors, is NO-2366.
JUDGE SEBRING: Just a moment, Counsel.
MR. HARDY: Does Your Honor have those last documents in order?
The next document is NO-2366, Prosecution Exhibit 526, found on page 9969 of the record, which was offered during the cross examination of the Defendant Hoven.
The next document is NO-2330, which is Document 527, which is found on page 9970, which was offered during the cross examination of the Defendant Hoven.
DR. GAWLIK: (Counsel for Defendant Hoven): Mr. President, I object to this document. The document has no signature. It is simply a copy of a copy.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, this document is in addition to the other document attached thereto. The two documents were found together, and an affidavit is attached to the two documents which reads as follows:
Affidavit. I, Dr. Robert M. W. Kempner, Deputy Chief of Counsel, certify that I have received the documents described as brief against Standartenfuehrer [Colonel] Koch and others, which is NO-2366, written by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer [Captain] Dr. Morgen, and papers relevant to corruption in criminal cases against SS officers from the personal effects of Dr. Morgen to Captain Gutmann of the M.I.S.
— That is the Military Intelligence Service —
Interrogation Center, Oberursel, Germany.
/s/ Dr. Robert M. W. Kempner, 16 April 1947.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not find any such certificate attached to the document before me.
MR. HARDY: This pertains to both documents, Your Honor. For the convenience of the Tribunal I did not give Exhibit 527 and Exhibit 526 the same document number. They came undee the same cover. The affidavit of Dr. Kempner applies to both documents, as you can see. I have given them individual document numbers and exhibit numbers for the convenience of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't find any statement by Dr. Kempner in connection with either of the documents.
MR. HARDY: It's in the original document, Your Honor. I didn't have that reproduced, as I only gave you extracts of the original document. I will pass it up to Your Honor for his approval.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, this does not indicate that it refers to this document too. This document has no signature. There is no indication where it comes from, who signed the original. It is simply a typewritten piece of paper.
MR. HARDY: I request that the Defense Counsel read the affidavit of Dr. Kempner attached to these papers, and I am informing Defense Counsel that these two documents come under that affidavit as stated in the affidavit by Dr. Kempner. If necessary I will get Dr. Kempner to execute another affidavit if that isn't clear enough.
THE PRESIDENT: The probative value of these documents may be doubted, that is a matter of argument, but they will be received in evidence, and Counsel for the Defendant may argue in his brief against the documents as having no probative value, and them they will be considered by the Tribunal.
MR. HARDY: The next document, Your Honor, is an affidavit which is document No-3963, which is Prosecution Exhibit 528, an affidavit of Karl Tauboeck which I introduced during the cross examination of the Defendant Pokorny. This has a jurat thereon and is properly authenticated and certified thereto.
Your Honor, that completes the entire list of documents which the Prosecution introduced during the case of the defense and marked for identification.
Now, at this time, Your Honor, I wish to distribute to you and to Defense Counsel German copies of affidavits which the Tribunal have admitted provisionally upon procurement of a jurat by the Prosecution. I have them bound together in a little volume so that we can introduce them formally now, inasmuch as they are only accepted provisionally pending the receipt of jurats.
Do the interpreters and court reporters have copies of these? I will merely refer to numbers and not read the particular affidavits. If Defense Counsel has an objection, if he will kindly wait until I get to that particular affidavit? If Defense Counsel will put on his headphones and hear my presentation he may withdraw his objection. Would you tell Dr. Froeshmann to put on his headphones and he will hear when I present the documents? Would you kindly tell Dr. Froeschmann to put on his earphones and hear my presentation of the documents before he starts to object to these documents?
THE PRESIDENT: He has them on, counsel. He is wearing them right beside you there.
MR. HARDY: He took them off now. These documents, Your Honor are already now in the hands of the Secretary General in proper order. I didn't have them brought into the courtroom. The first one is Document NO-881, which was offered as Prosecution Exhibit 280 in the early days of the defense's case, and this was introduced by Mr. Mc Haney, I believe, on the 28th day of January, and it was admitted provisionally at that time pending the authority of the person issuing the oath. The person issuing the oath was Guy Favarger, and as you will remember, that was cleared up in an affidavit by the Chief of Counsel, General Telford Taylor, and when Mr. Mc Haney went through those particular documents this was one that he omitted to take up at that time before the Tribunal.
This is in proper order and contains a jurat, and at this time I offer it formally for acceptance into evidence rather than provisionally.
JUDGE SEBRING: Counsel, I didn't understand. What document book was that in?
MR. HARDY: Just a moment, Your Honor. It is Exhibit 280, Your Honor, and you will find it in Document Book No. 13. The next document, Your Honor, is the affidavit of Ludwig Lehner. This affidavit is in good form and now has a jurat. It is Document NO-863, which is found in Document Book 14, part I, and the jurat now is signed by Herbert H Meyer, and you will note he is on the list who has the authority to administer oaths as granted by General Telford Taylor, Chief of Counsel.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, if I remember correctly the witness Lehner offered an affidavit with a considerably different content and a different date. The affidavit that is now offered bears the date 30 March 1947. I cannot remember that this affidavit was offered, then I object to it, because this document was signed at a time when it could have been shown to the Defendant Brack or the witness Pfannmueller.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I submit that of course when a person swears to a signature they have the document retyped and the man signs in his presence, but I can overcome that and put it in as a rebuttal document if Your Honor wishes to strike the other one and take this as a new one and give it a new exhibit number or let it retain its old one. It rebuts evidence given by the defendant and by the witness Pfannmueller. Whatever Your Honors wish to see, this document now contains a jurat in the order prescribed by the Tribunal for admissibility.
If Your Honors wish to have it bear the same exhibit number or have me give it a new exhibit number, I will do whatever you wish.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand that the objection made to this document made when it was first offered was that there was no jurat attached?
MR. HARDY: The first objection, Your Honor, was because it was not a sworn statement, and now it is a sworn statement.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course when an affidavit is sworn to it must be dated the day upon which it was sworn to, not some prior date.
MR. HARDY: That's correct, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: If it is admitted that this document is the same document that was admitted provisionally upon being again altered to the proper jurat, then it will now be admitted. Of course, if it is a different affidavit, different questions are to be presented.
MR. HARDY: Inasmuch as I don't have both affidavits, Your Honor, I will assume for convenience that it is an entirely different affidavit, and I will give it a new exhibit number and offer it as a rebuttal document. It seems to me immaterial whether—
THE PRESIDENT: It is entirely immaterial.
MR. HARDY: It's in perfect order, and if it is different, it perhaps may be different in form in maybe one or two words, but in substance I am sure that it is the same. I imagine we sent Mr. Meyer all the way up to St. Wolfgang near Wasserburg in order to obtain this jurat and have him re-execute the affidavit in his presence.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is any variation in the affidavit it should be admitted as a new exhibit.
MR. HARDY: Then, Your Honor, I will give it a new exhibit number. This is Document NO-863 which is Exhibit NO-561, Prosecution which was formerly Exhibit NO 333. If Your Honors will put that down, and if any reference is made to this in our briefs as Exhibit 333 we will be referring to Exhibit 561, and we withdraw herewith Exhibit 333 as such.
The next document that I had contained in this little collection of affidavits happened to be the affidavit of Hoven which was cleared up this morning by the Tribunal and is in evidence as Exhibit 281, so I will not discuss that at this time. Your Honors, of course, have copies of all these, either in your document books or submitted later when used them at later days during cross examination periods.
The next document is Document NO-910, which is Prosecution Exhibit 138, which was the statement of Ignatz Bauer, which was as you will recall, from the Vienna police file. The document now contains a jurat, as I had it sent down there and a member of the C.I.C., Lionel A Schaffro, called in Mr. Bauer and took his oath.
JUDGE SEBRING: Did it appear in a book?
MR. HARDY: Pardon, Your Honor?
JUDGE SEBRING: Did it appear in a document book?
MR. HARDY: Yes it did, Your Honor. Just a moment—138 was in Document Book NO-5, Your Honor. That's the sea-water documents. The next document, Your Honor, was an affidavit which was NO-911, which is Prosecution Exhibit NO-139, and similar to the Bauer affidavit this affidavit of Tschofenig also did not have a jurat thereon, and I have obtained that. That was in Document Book NO-5, the same situation.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the exhibit number of this document?
MR. HARDY: The Exhibit number of that is 139. The next document, Your Honor, is an affidavit of Pillwein, which was NO-912, which is Exhibit 140 and like the other two documents did not have a jurat thereon and was admitted provisionally, and now the bear the jurat.
That's Exhibit 140 and is also found in Document Book No-5. Also, Your Honor, the last document is NO-1427, which is Exhibit NO-431, which was an affidavit which was sworn to by Mr. Rodell, and Mr. Mc Haney omitted to include this when he read off the documents or affidavits sworn to by officers certified by General Taylor's affidavit which gave them the authority to administer oaths. At this time I am calling that to your attention, inasmuch as it was admitted provisionally, and I am calling to your attention now that Exhibit 431, which is in Document Book NO-16, contains a proper jurat.
I think, Your Honor, that clears up all of the Prosecution exhibits which were admitted provisionally and which were admitted for identification. I have one more Prosecution document book, rebuttal document book, which is being prepared, which I will offer as soon as it is completed. At this time, Your Honor, I have one copy of the judgment of the International Military Tribunal, a bound volume which was published officially, and I wish to present this to the Tribunal and request that they take judicial notice of the judgment of the International Military Tribunal. I do not believe it will be necessary to give that a document number. This is the entire judgment. The specific sections of the judgment which the Prosecution and the Defense have wished the Tribunal take judicial notice of have been put in individually, but this contains the entire judgment of the International Military Tribunal, for judicial notice of this Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: That copy should be marked in some way, as indicating that that copy has been turned over to Military Tribunal I in connection with this trial.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I will give it an exhibit number if that will be convenient.
JUDGE SEBRING: If you give it an exhibit number you may be placed in the position of having to furnish copies to the Court and to all counsel. I would suggest you give it to the Secretary General and let him stamp it "Filed" before him.
MR. HARDY: Fine, Your Honor. With the exception, Your Honor —
THE PRESIDENT: This book should not have an exhibit number. My suggestion was that it merely be marked as the identical copy which was placed before the Tribunal to be used in referring to matters of which the Tribunal should take judicial notice.
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor. Now, Your Honor, that completes whatever evidence I have to offer in rebuttal, with the exception of one document book which I am now preparing and which I hope to have ready in due course.
I, unfortunately, do not have it ready today, and I will check on it this evening. It is a document book which will contain the two interrogations I referred to in connection with the Hoven affidavit; also one other affidavit of the witness who appeared here, the witness Horn, which I am offering in rebuttal; and it has in it several decrees concerning Austria and other countries as to the status of the people and citizens of those countries after the occupation by Germany; and has, I believe, one order of Himmler. Other than that I have no further evidence to offer in rebuttal unless I have something of a miscellaneous nature that appears in the next few hours, and I am now ready to turn over the rest of the time to Defense Counsel to introduce their supplemental document books.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, in connection with your phrase "due course", how long do you estimate the course will be?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I will check on it this evening. I think the prosecution has now got very little left to put in. We are putting in these decrees, and so forth, and it will take a little time to process the documents, I think we have the translations pretty well in hand, and as soon as I can have it assembled I will introduce it. It will be before the end of the session on Thursday, I assure you.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, That was that I was concerned about. The Tribunal will now hear Defense Counsel who have any documents to offer. I have some on my desk. Here's a document book, Appendix 2, by defendant Weltz.
MR. HARDY: Defense Counsel for Defendant Weltz is not here in the Courtroom, Your Honor.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, you just said that you had documents from several defense counsel. Would you be kind enough to tell me all the names, and then I shall see which of those defense counsel I can find
THE PRESIDENT: I was just going through the list, Doctor. Defense Counsel Boehm, for Poppendick.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it may well be that some of those document books that you have had delivered to you as supplemental document books have already been introduced and Defense Counsel gave you copies of them during the time that they were introducing them and you have just received, through channels, your official copy. I found that same situation. I picked up a lot of supplemental books this afternoon and discovered that they had already been introduced. I was rather gleeful that we had something to put to the Tribunal today but I found myself to be badly mistaken. There are no other supplemental books available at this moment that I noticed.
THE PRESIDENT: That is possible. I have two copies in German, apparently each one of No. 4, on behalf of Defendant Karl Brandt.
MR. HARDY: If Your Honor will hand down to me the copies you have before you, I can tell you whether they have been introduced yet or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. HARDY: The one that you have, the German copy of Dr. Servatius, has not been introduced to my knowledge, Your Honor. The one on Defendant Weltz has been introduced. That was introduced by Dr. Wille this morning — that is the affidavit of Dr. Wirth. I am not certain about this affidavit on Poppendick's behalf, affidavit of Vonkennel. It seems to me that it was introduced. I am uncertain, actually.
THE PRESIDENT: I seem to have some recollection of that name, but I am not sure.
MR. HARDY: Other than that, Your Honor, there are no supplemental volumes available. This one of Dr. Servatius, that is in German, do you have an English copy of that?
THE PRESIDENT: Not unless it was delivered some time ago. I do not think that we have.
MR. HARDY: In view of the circumstances, Your Honor, I think we are at a stalemate now and will have to adjourn until translations are available.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems so.
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the Defendants Blome and Ruff): Mr. President the situation is now as follows: Various defense counsel still have documents in the Translation Branch. I doubt whether the translations of these documents will be ready by tomorrow or the next day. I wondered now the situation could be dealt with, since we are at the end of the presentation of evidence. I had the following idea. I should like to suggest this to the Tribunal and perhaps the Tribunal will agree with me: If the defense counsel can give the Tribunal the German original of these documents which were have been down for translation but not returned yet, and assign an exhibit number to them, then it might be possible, in order to expedite proceedings, for the Tribunal to accept these documents provisionally, under the condition that the Translation Branch then sends the translations to the Tribunal. This will be done automatically — we have no influence on that. But this procedure might make it possible for the Tribunal to settle the whole question of the documents not yet received without delaying the case. We would be grateful Mr. President, if you could tell us whether it can be done in this way.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that Counsel for the Prosecution made some such suggestion.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have a suggestion that we might follow. It appears to me that with the exception of the Defendant Sievers, the Defendant Schroeder, and the Defendant Brack, all other defendants only have maybe one or two miscellaneous documents to introduce. If they have German copies of those documents, it would seem to me that they could introduce them, bringing the original with them. In most instances I imagine they are affidavits which have jurats thereon. The question of admissibility I can easily determine by seeing whether or not the affidavits are attested. Then they can introduce them, and if the particular sections to which they have reference are not too extensive, they can slowly read them, and we could have those particular translations in the record, and then at a later date we could get the official translations from the Translation Department and have them included in our document books.
THE PRESIDENT: That would appear to be entirely feasible.
MR. HARDY: So, Your Honor, as I see it, we can wait on the Defendant Brack, the Defendant Sievers, the Defendant Mrugowsky, and the Defendant Schroeder, and them we could clean up these single documents that other defendants have to offer in the manner I have just outlined. I will confer with Mr. Hodges, Chief of the Translation Department, and ask him how long he thinks it will take to complete these other translations, if you will wait just a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood from Mr. Hodges that some documents would be available tomorrow morning.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, another possible procedure would be — I don't know whether the American court would approve it — that the defense counsel first give the Tribunal and the Secretary General the original of the documents still outstanding and that during the recess before the final pleas, the Prosecution can determine whether they have any objection, and then the Tribunal might inform the defense counsel in writing whether the documents are admitted or not. That might expedite matters even more, but I don't know whether that is permissible under your rules.
THE PRESIDENT: I wonder how many documents will be available in the morning. Can Mr. Hodges give us any information on that?
MR. HARDY: Mr. Hodges informs me that the documents of the Defendant Mrugowsky will be ready in the morning and the documents for Rose will be ready in the morning, or nearly ready. He thinks the documents for Mrugowsky will be entirely ready and the Rose documents may take a few minutes but will be ready in the morning. It seems to me that defense counsel might get together all the miscellaneous documents — I see Romberg has one document, Hoven has three documents, Pokorny has two documents — and get them together in the German language. I presume that 99% of them are affidavits. If they properly sworn to, then there is no point for objection on the part of the Prosecution, unless there is evidence in the nature of re-rebuttal evidence, and the Tribunal could determine that at a later date when they get the copies, and then they could guide themselves in the use of them and we could forestall any other difficulties here.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood that these documents by the defense that you mentioned were practically ready to be presented to the Tribunal in the usual form. I don't know when those documents were presented. Mr. Hodges assured me that all documents which had been given to him up to a certain hour in the morning last Saturday would be here by Wednesday morning. They will be here, I understand. Now the only documents which will not be presented tomorrow are documents that have been delivered this week, delivered yesterday and today.
MR. HARDY: From looking at this list, Your Honor, it doesn't seem to me there are more than a handful of documents, after you eliminate the Brack documents, the Mrugowsky documents, the Schroeder documents, and six documents for Karl Brandt, and it is my assumption that, of course, Defense Counsel for Mrugowsky and Brack and Schroeder must have had their documents in before last week.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the documents for the Defendant Mrugowsky, Mr. Hodges informed me, were turned in on last Friday, June 27.
MR. HARDY: But he says those will be ready tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: He says those will be ready tomorrow morning.
MR. HARDY: Then, after you eliminate those three large document cases, you only have miscellaneous documents from each one of the other defendants. It seems to me they could put those in through the interpreters.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me also that if Defense Counsel who just have one or two documents could be prepared to have those documents here in German and that some system can be evolved whereby they can be received in evidence and possible the important parts read into the record. Of course I understand tomorrow morning we have quite a bit of work to do on the documents which will be ready at that time.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, could it be possible for Your Honor to issue a directive that all defense counsel be here tomorrow morning with the documents they wish to put into evidence so that we can go take up each case and go through document for document, be it translated or be it not translated.
THE PRESIDENT: All counsel will be in attendance before the Tribunal at 0930 o'clock tomorrow morning and have their documents either in German and English or in German, and the matter can be presented to the Tribunal and we will find out just exactly what has to be done.
Anything further, doctor?
DR. SAUTER: No. I will see to it, Mr. President, that all the defense counsel are here at the beginning of the session tomorrow morning.
DR. FROESCHMANN (for Brack): Mr. President, I would be able to give you all the German documents. Six of them were handed in for translation last week and the other four yesterday or today, because I received them only yesterday or today. If the President desires I could offer these documents right now and save time for tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: What day were the six documents last week handed in for translation, do you know?
DR. FROESCHMANN: They were handed in on 23 June, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I wonder if those are included in the documents which will be ready tomorrow morning. Could Mr. Hodges advise us?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the Brack documents will be included in those ready tomorrow morning, the six that he put in last week. I propose that he introduce them all together, and he can put the ones that haven't been translated in after he has put in the six. I think if all counsel are here tomorrow morning we can reach some understanding and put them in in the German language and get the translation at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: Will all the defense counsel be present with their documents either in German and English or in German tomorrow morning at 0930 o'clock.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.